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Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 04:23 PM
I need to know the ratio for earning holiday at work.

I know it's something like every 20 days work you get 1 day holiday, what I need to know is how many hours do you have to work to get 1 hour holiday.

I need this to work out how much money my wanker of an ex-boss owes me since I hav't had a holiday yet. I have googled it but it does'nt give me the info I want.

Any help would be greatly apreciated :)

btw this will probably only apply to uk law and it's uk law I need to know :)

Jonno :cool:

peat moss
09-03-2005, 04:36 PM
In Canada its 4 % of your earnings . Work a year you get 4% or two weeks off what ever is greater . If you have a union job or work for a certain lenght of time you get 6% or what every your union fought for.


I get 4 weeks because of my 10 years service but every company is different .

GepperRankins
09-03-2005, 04:39 PM
does 160 hours work = 24 hours holiday then?

peat moss
09-03-2005, 04:43 PM
I would phone a goverment service to find out if the plick is ripping you off. Like the employment office or ............


Like this from a quick google :

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/work_time_regs/wtr7.htm

Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 04:47 PM
In uk you earn 4 weeks per year, but considering I hav'nt worked a full year this tax year and my hours fluctuate week to week I need it broken down to hours so I can work out how much he owes me.

@Dave..... I dunno mate, thats what I wanna know :lol:

Jonno :cool:

peat moss
09-03-2005, 04:52 PM
From my link I get this ?

For example:

* A full-time worker who is in his or her third month of employment would have built up 5 days' leave. (The annual entitlement of 20 days multiplied by 3/12 equals 5 days).
* A part-timer who works three days a week and is still in his or her first month of employment would be able to take one day's leave. The annual entitlement of 12 days (four weeks times three days a week) multiplied by 1/12 equals one day.
* A full-time worker who is in his or her eighth month of employment would have built up 13½ days' leave. The annual entitlement of 20 days multiplied by 8/12 equals 13.33 days, which is rounded up to 13½ days.

Requests to take leave in the first year are subject to the same notice requirements as any other leave: see section below Giving notice to take leave.

At the end of a period of employment a worker will be able to claim for payment in lieu for any leave outstanding, calculated on a pro rata basis from the first day of the leave year or employment to the last day of employment, irrespective of how long that period may be in the current leave year. In this instance, leave is not rounded up to the nearest half day, but is paid on the actual amount due. For example, if a worker had accrued 2.66 days, then they would be paid for 2.66 days and not three days.


Holy fuck did a govnermemt worker or a lawyer type that up ? 2.66 days ?


I'll get my coat ............. :(

Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 04:56 PM
Yeah I got that, but whats classed as a day?
I've worked everything from 1 hour to 20 hours in a day, if I work 20 2 hour days it must be different to if I worked 20 8 hour days?
This fucker owes me money, he's ripped me off and cost me a lot of money, I WILL get what I'm owed, by force if nesesarry, I'm not gonna be walked over and ripped off by anyone let alone a c*nt like him.

Jonno :cool:

peat moss
09-03-2005, 05:08 PM
If you worked more than 8 hours that should be overtime ? Like time and a half instead of $12 an hour its $18 . Like I said Jon phone someone to understand your rights . Just don't do it on your lunch break you'll be on the hold button for ever do it on his time . Its money you worked hard for and your intitled to it .

Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 05:13 PM
Ok first...... I can''t phone anyone, it's saturday.
second: I could'nt do it on my lunch break considering I told my boss to stick his job on thursday :frusty:

Which in hiensight was a mistake mainly due to my stupid temper which may now have cost me dearly.
I walked out without warning so I might not be entitled to anything..... by law.

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-03-2005, 05:42 PM
Yeah I got that, but whats classed as a day?
I've worked everything from 1 hour to 20 hours in a day, if I work 20 2 hour days it must be different to if I worked 20 8 hour days?
This fucker owes me money, he's ripped me off and cost me a lot of money, I WILL get what I'm owed, by force if nesesarry, I'm not gonna be walked over and ripped off by anyone let alone a c*nt like him.

Jonno :cool:
You shouldn't be working 20 hour days, it's contrary to the European Working Time Directive.

Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 05:44 PM
I did'nt mean I have at the shop, but I have done before and while laying the floor at shop I was working 14-15 hour days for a week pretty much.

You are actually allowed to work as long as you want (providing it does'nt involve machinery) as long as you sign a disclaimer, the woman I used to work with did this cos she wants 60 hours per week.

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Re the annual leave thing, I think it varies a lot, depending on the job you are in. Quite a lot of people only get unpaid leave. Hence things like holiday stamps in the building trade. (Is that still going on).

Jon L. Obscene
09-03-2005, 05:46 PM
Yeah but I'm just talking about the standard, there is a basic standard rate, like tax exemption for the first £1800 (or whatever it is now), that varies depending on your job as does NI contributions. But there is a flat rate.

As for holiday stamps in the trade, I dunno mate, been self employed for the last 4 or 5 years, if I took holiday I did'nt get paid, simple as that.

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-03-2005, 05:49 PM
You are actually allowed to work as long as you want (providing it does'nt involve machinery) as long as you sign a disclaimer, the woman I used to work with did this cos she wants 60 hours per week.

Jonno :cool:

This speaks of the working hours and of the annual leave entitlement.

SECTION II - MINIMUM REST PERIODS - OTHER ASPECTS OF THE ORGANISATION OF WORKING TIME

Article 3 - Daily rest
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that every worker is entitled to a minimum daily rest period of 11 consecutive hours per 24-hour period.

Article 4 - Breaks
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, where the working day is longer than six hours, every worker is entitled to a rest break, the details of which, including duration and the terms of which it is granted, shall be laid down in collective agreements or agreements between the two sides of industry or, failing that, by national legislation.

Article 5 - Weekly rest period
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, per each seven-day period, every worker is entitled to a minimum uninterrupted rest period of 24 hours plus the 11 hours daily rest referred to in Article 3. The minimum rest period referred to in the first subparagraph shall in principle include Sunday. If objective, technical or work organisation conditions so justify, a minimum rest period of 24 hours may be applied.

Article 6 - Maximum weekly working time
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, in keeping with the need to protect the safety and health of workers:
1. the period of weekly working time is limited by means of laws, regulations or administrative provisions or by collective agreements or agreements between the two sides of industry;
2. the average working time for each seven-day period, including overtime, does not exceed 48 hours.

Article 7 - Annual leave
1. Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that every worker is entitled to paid annual leave of at least four weeks in accordance with the conditions for entitlement to, and granting of, such leave laid down by national legislation and/or practice.
2. The minimum period of paid annual leave may not be replaced by an allowance in lieu, except where the employment relationship is terminated.

Source (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/information/worktimedirective.htm#Article6)

manker
09-04-2005, 07:43 PM
Well, I'm at that thread you directed me to, Jonno, but JP has already answered :blink:

Apply the annual four weeks a year off thing proportionately to your leave date and the start of the tax year.

28 days *148/365 - any days you've already taken including bank holidays.

Multiply the answer by your daily pay.

Jon L. Obscene
09-04-2005, 07:52 PM
Ah, I get it now, sorry that quote JP used read weird to me.

Thank you all.

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-04-2005, 08:28 PM
Well, I'm at that thread you directed me to, Jonno, but JP has already answered :blink:

Apply the annual four weeks a year off thing proportionately to your leave date and the start of the tax year.

28 days *148/365 - any days you've already taken including bank holidays.

Multiply the answer by your daily pay.
Does the four weeks paid leave include Bank Holidays.

I s'pose that makes sense if you think about it, I just hadn't thought about it b4.

Is the tax year thing a rod, or is there a relevance to it. I thought it would just be the leave year which was significant.

manker
09-04-2005, 08:37 PM
Well, I'm at that thread you directed me to, Jonno, but JP has already answered :blink:

Apply the annual four weeks a year off thing proportionately to your leave date and the start of the tax year.

28 days *148/365 - any days you've already taken including bank holidays.

Multiply the answer by your daily pay.
Does the four weeks paid leave include Bank Holidays.

I s'pose that makes sense if you think about it, I just hadn't thought about it b4.

Is the tax year thing a rod, or is there a relevance to it. I thought it would just be the leave year which was significant.Yeah, the statutory paid four weeks does include bank holidays.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean with the tax year relevance. You're only entitled to a proportion of the 4 weeks holiday if you leave in the middle of a tax year.

If it's exactly 26 weeks into the tax year, you're entitled to two weeks holiday pay less what you've already taken, if you leave 13 weeks into the tax year, you're entitled to 1 week holiday pay less what you've taken - and so forth.

Jon L. Obscene
09-04-2005, 08:49 PM
Ok my problem is (and I may be being thick here) , you say about entitled to 2 weeks holiday, how do I work out what a week is? I work different hours every week pretty much......can I work it out from how much I've earnt? and do I do that from gross or net?

Jonno :cool:

manker
09-04-2005, 08:57 PM
Ok my problem is (and I may be being thick here) , you say about entitled to 2 weeks holiday, how do I work out what a week is? I work different hours every week pretty much......can I work it out from how much I've earnt? and do I do that from gross or net?

Jonno :cool:Take an average from the last 8 weeks. Use gross figures.

Tax and NI should then be subtracted from that.


In your case it's gonna be 11.35 days (or 1.62 weeks) minus what you've already taken.

So, say your average wage is £300 per week and you've not taken any holidays since 5th April this year:

300 multiplied by 1.62 = £486

Or if your average wage is £275 and you've taken 2 days holiday in this tax year:

277 multiplied by 1.335 = £367

manker
09-04-2005, 09:00 PM
Btw, I've presumed that you work 7 days a week there.

I shouldn't have really. If it's five days then the calculation will be different:

In your case it's gonna be 11.35 days (or 2.27 weeks) minus what you've already taken.

So, say your average wage is £300 per week and you've not taken any holidays since 5th April this year:

300 multiplied by 2.27 = £681

Or if your average wage is £275 and you've taken 2 days holiday in this tax year:

277 multiplied by 1.87 = £518.



Meh. I hate employees :dry:

JPaul
09-04-2005, 09:20 PM
Does the four weeks paid leave include Bank Holidays.

I s'pose that makes sense if you think about it, I just hadn't thought about it b4.

Is the tax year thing a rod, or is there a relevance to it. I thought it would just be the leave year which was significant.Yeah, the statutory paid four weeks does include bank holidays.

I'm not entirely certain what you mean with the tax year relevance. You're only entitled to a proportion of the 4 weeks holiday if you leave in the middle of a tax year.

If it's exactly 26 weeks into the tax year, you're entitled to two weeks holiday pay less what you've already taken, if you leave 13 weeks into the tax year, you're entitled to 1 week holiday pay less what you've taken - and so forth.

My apologies, I have a leave year which in no way relates to the tax year.

Is it the normal course of events that people are entitled to an apportionment of the 4 weeks, from their date of joining up till the end of the tax year. From then on they get the 4 weeks in line with the tax year.

Reading your last again, I assume this is the case, but I can't be arsed deleting the above, so I'll leave it.

JPaul
09-04-2005, 09:27 PM
Jonno,

Firstly work out the leave you were entitled to.

Next subtract the leave you took, that will give you the number of days you should be paid for.

Assume each day is 8.4 hours (a 42 hour week).

Mutiply Days x 8.4 x Hourly Rate.

It doesn't really matter what hours you actually work. If you are considered a full time employee, then you are entitled to 4 weeks of full days paid leave.

If however you are part time, then do the same calculation, but using the appropriate number and not 42. So if your hours are 30, base your calculation on 6 hours / day and not 8.4.

manker
09-04-2005, 09:31 PM
Indeed it is, at least in my experience :D

I insist that employers harmonise their employee's leave year with the tax year - cos it's easier to deal with but it's at the employer's discretion.

I did make the presumption that Jonno's boss would do this too, but as you point out, it's not necessarily the case.

Jon L. Obscene
09-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Ok thanks guys :)

I'll work it out, something tells me it's not gonna be much :(

Back on site next week tho :01: well, I got a load of concreting and slabbing to do :lol:

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-04-2005, 10:18 PM
Ok thanks guys :)

I'll work it out, something tells me it's not gonna be much :(

Back on site next week tho :01: well, I got a load of concreting and slabbing to do :lol:

Jonno :cool:
Remember the 11 hour break and the 48 hour week.

Jon L. Obscene
09-04-2005, 10:19 PM
See I once told my old boss I was entitled to an 11 hour break, so twice a week I would'nt turn up for work :01:

Jonno :cool:

DanB
09-05-2005, 11:27 AM
I work a 35 hour week and I get 20 paid days of holiday each year. I also have bank holidays off, for which I get paid, at no detriment to my leave entitlement

Barbarossa
09-05-2005, 11:34 AM
I work a 35 hour week and I get 25 paid days of holiday each year. I also have bank holidays off, for which I get paid, at no detriment to my leave entitlement.

Barbarossa > DanB :01:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 11:49 AM
Ok this bank holiday thing, my w/e is usually monday and tuesday, I only worked one of those days if I was needed.......I'm not entitled to pay for bank holidays am I? :frusty:

Jonno :cool:

manker
09-05-2005, 11:57 AM
Ok this bank holiday thing, my w/e is usually monday and tuesday, I only worked one of those days if I was needed.......I'm not entitled to pay for bank holidays am I? :frusty:

Jonno :cool:If you're usually off on Mondays then bank holidays don't come into the equation. You've no need to subtract them from your entitlement.

However, employment law is horrible because of it's subjectiveness. I am by no means an expert in its intricacies. In this case particularly so since I'm not aware of your exact circumstances.

http://www.acas.org.uk/contact/contact_us.html

I don't want to tell you something that opens up a pwnage window for your boss' accountant who will have your details in front of him or her. Give ACAS a bell, it's free and they'll be able to advise you more properly.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 02:30 PM
I think I'm just gonna demmand he gives me a grand and done with it :01:

Oh yeah, nother question, remember I asked about still getting tax returns?
You said I will for a couple of years right? does that mean I'm still self employed?

If so I'm gonna write the fucker a bill for the work I done but only got paid a third of the agreed price.
He has nothing in writing to say a price, no quote nor estimate, I on the other hand have about 2000 witnesses to say I done the work.

Jonno :cool:

JPaul
09-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Have you left your job Jonno.

manker
09-05-2005, 03:34 PM
I think I'm just gonna demmand he gives me a grand and done with it :01:

Oh yeah, nother question, remember I asked about still getting tax returns?
You said I will for a couple of years right? does that mean I'm still self employed?

If so I'm gonna write the fucker a bill for the work I done but only got paid a third of the agreed price.
He has nothing in writing to say a price, no quote nor estimate, I on the other hand have about 2000 witnesses to say I done the work.

Jonno :cool:Yes, you can still do work on a self-employed basis - provided your customer knew of the arrangement.

What you propose is dishonest at best.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 03:45 PM
Yes mate, unfortunately walked out in temper on thursday :(

Ok you guys have little info here about this, the shop I worked at had a conversion, new shelves, tills, cielings, cladding on walls etc, the builders were straight from hell and finished nothing (which of course annoyed me having been in the trade), the floor was a complete fuck up, the boss wanted ceramic tiles and the builders turned up with vynil.
They latexed the floor..........well, it looked like an arial view of the alps :frusty:
The boss is spineless and has no knowledge of anything cept shops so he asked if I could help out, I argued with the builders that they fucked the floor up, get this "Jon, you know as well as me you latex a floor and sand it level the next day" :lol:
To which I replied "bollocks, the clue is in the title , SELF LEVELING latex floor compound" :frusty:
Anyway after a couple of weeks of the shop being 3/4's empty cos of these builders the boss asked me for the 4th time if I'd do the floor (I kept turning it down cos I knew it would go bad when it comes to paying)
I agreed eventually, spent 5 days 9am-1am laying this floor and fixing what the builders had fucked up, me and another lad agreed £700 each cash to do the work.
The work was done, it looks fine.........when it came to paying the boss said "Oh no you said £700 altogether" , so more arguments ensued and we eventually settled on £1000.
He paid a week later...........£700.
That £700 was split, I got £250, Azz got £250, Azz's bro got£125 and a lad who helped a bit I gave £75.
We hired a tile cutter on my fathers jewson account, the doepy twat did'nt take it back when I told him, so the bill for that was £176.08.
When I asked the boss for the money he told me that it was my bill and included in the price.
I said "So I got £250 for the floor, minus £176.08 leaves me £73.92 for laying 90square meters of tiled flooring and dissmantling/reassembling shelving etc"
He simply said "Yes"
Told me I should get half off Azz (who's just had a baby and moved into a new house and who also left the shop for similar reasons)
This is not even mentioning the fact that I saved him £1500 on the tiles AND stopped the builders taking him to court over money owed for vynil tiles and a thousand other things I done for him and the good of the staff and business free of charge in my own free time.

Add all that to the contents of my letter of resignation and I think you can sorta see why I'm a bit pissed off with him.

Jonno :cool:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 03:47 PM
Yes, you can still do work on a self-employed basis - provided your customer knew of the arrangement.

What you propose is dishonest at best.

How is it dishonest? he never asked for a written quote (read above post), he ripped me off.

If someone wants work doing and they don't ask for a written quote they cannot then dispute the price, even if they have a written estimate, in order for them to dispute the price they have to have a written "Quote".

Am I correct?

Jonno :cool:

manker
09-05-2005, 03:54 PM
Yes mate, unfortunately walked out in temper on thursday :(

Ok you guys have little info here about this, the shop I worked at had a conversion, new shelves, tills, cielings, cladding on walls etc, the builders were straight from hell and finished nothing (which of course annoyed me having been in the trade), the floor was a complete fuck up, the boss wanted ceramic tiles and the builders turned up with vynil.
They latexed the floor..........well, it looked like an arial view of the alps :frusty:
The boss is spineless and has no knowledge of anything cept shops so he asked if I could help out, I argued with the builders that they fucked the floor up, get this "Jon, you know as well as me you latex a floor and sand it level the next day" :lol:
To which I replied "bollocks, the clue is in the title , SELF LEVELING latex floor compound" :frusty:
Anyway after a couple of weeks of the shop being 3/4's empty cos of these builders the boss asked me for the 4th time if I'd do the floor (I kept turning it down cos I knew it would go bad when it comes to paying)
I agreed eventually, spent 5 days 9am-1am laying this floor and fixing what the builders had fucked up, me and another lad agreed £700 each cash to do the work.
The work was done, it looks fine.........when it came to paying the boss said "Oh no you said £700 altogether" , so more arguments ensued and we eventually settled on £1000.
He paid a week later...........£700.
That £700 was split, I got £250, Azz got £250, Azz's bro got£125 and a lad who helped a bit I gave £75.
We hired a tile cutter on my fathers jewson account, the doepy twat did'nt take it back when I told him, so the bill for that was £176.08.
When I asked the boss for the money he told me that it was my bill and included in the price.
I said "So I got £250 for the floor, minus £176.08 leaves me £73.92 for laying 90square meters of tiled flooring and dissmantling/reassembling shelving etc"
He simply said "Yes"
Told me I should get half off Azz (who's just had a baby and moved into a new house and who also left the shop for similar reasons)
This is not even mentioning the fact that I saved him £1500 on the tiles AND stopped the builders taking him to court over money owed for vynil tiles and a thousand other things I done for him and the good of the staff and business free of charge in my own free time.

Add all that to the contents of my letter of resignation and I think you can sorta see why I'm a bit pissed off with him.

Jonno :cool:You might be good at laying floors, but I can see why you're not working for yourself anymore.

Mate, you've gotta be more precise with people and let them know exactly what you're prepared to do and how much you'll get paid. You need to put this in writing and get it agreed by all parties.

It's all very well to call your boss a bar-steward and blame your Dad for costing you money by not taking the tool back but, at the end of the day, you were organising the job and the buck stops squarely with you.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 03:59 PM
No no, you've read that wrong or I typed it wrong, I was'nt blaming my dad, I was balmming my ex-boss, I wanted to take it back, he told me he would do it, I found it 2 weeks later buried under stock.
Also it was a cash job I done as a favour.

Had I have been in business and done it properly it would have cost him close to £3000 and I'd have made a good £500 on the supply of tiles.

Jesus how the hell can you say I'm in the wrong??? I tried to help and do someone a favour and he fucked me over quite clearly.
And the reason I don't work for myself anymore is cos I don't enjoy the job, plain and simple so don't be taking the piss out of the way I ran my business, I made money and rarely had payment problems cos most people LISTEN to what their told.
And besides, it's not upto the builder to offer a written quote, it's upto the customer to ask for one as you have to pay for an estimator to work it out acurately.

Jonno :cool:

NikkiD
09-05-2005, 04:00 PM
Yes, you can still do work on a self-employed basis - provided your customer knew of the arrangement.

What you propose is dishonest at best.

How is it dishonest? he never asked for a written quote (read above post), he ripped me off.

If someone wants work doing and they don't ask for a written quote they cannot then dispute the price, even if they have a written estimate, in order for them to dispute the price they have to have a written "Quote".

Am I correct?

Jonno :cool:

Jon, it's over, you've walked away. The best thing to do now is to let it go. It's going to cause you more grief to get the money from him than it will to leave it be, perhaps even so far as a trip to court to get him to pay up - and even then, without a quote as proof of what was agreed upon, you don't have any proof. It's your word against his. You have witnesses that you completed the work, but do you have witnesses to the conversation when the price of the work was agreed upon?

I realize that it's a lot of money, and I understand how much that money is needed, believe me I do. But at some point you have to realize how futile it is to continue. You're causing yourself more headaches than it's worth.

Besides, I've already offered you a job. :shifty:

manker
09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
No no, you've read that wrong or I typed it wrong, I was'nt blaming my dad, I was balmming my ex-boss, I wanted to take it back, he told me he would do it, I found it 2 weeks later buried under stock.
Also it was a cash job I done as a favour.

Had I have been in business and done it properly it would have cost him close to £3000 and I'd have made a good £500 on the supply of tiles.

Jesus how the hell can you say I'm in the wrong??? I tried to help and do someone a favour and he fucked me over quite clearly.
And the reason I don't work for myself anymore is cos I don't enjoy the job, plain and simple so don't be taking the piss out of the way I ran my business, I made money and rarely had payment problems cos most people LISTEN to what their told.
And besides, it's not upto the builder to offer a written quote, it's upto the customer to ask for one as you have to pay for an estimator to work it out acurately.

Jonno :cool:Well there you go. You did a cash job and as a consequence you got ripped off. If you were prepared to pay tax on it then you would have gotten the benefit of the full backing of the law.

That's where you went wrong.


Of course, I do know - better than most - that this is an idealistic way of looking at things but if ever I do a cash job for someone (:o), I make absolutely sure that there is no way in the world I'm going to get ripped off.

You failed to organise the job properly, sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. People are gits.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:09 PM
but do you have witnesses to the conversation when the price of the work was agreed upon?

Yes, me, Azz, his brother , the 2 women that work there, his wife, and the builder who was doing the flat, plus another builder who was getting prices for the tiles AND the supplly manager from one of the food companies.



I realize that it's a lot of money, and I understand how much that money is needed, believe me I do. But at some point you have to realize how futile it is to continue. You're causing yourself more headaches than it's worth.

Why? because I wont let someone who has shitloads of money rip me off by several hundred quid?
And yes I'm prepared to take him to court, I'll use a no win no fee place if I have to , I don't care if I get fuck all, I want him to pay what he owes reguardless. He's cost me a lot of time and money and the only job I've ever actually enjoyed.


Besides, I've already offered you a job. :shifty:

True :shifty: .............Ohhhhhhh you mean cutting grass? :rolleyes:

I would also like to say, does anyne remember the thread I started when he took over? I said he would push out the staff, you all said I was wrong........turns out different tho huh, I'm the second to leave and the third is on the cards. These people are all the same, they don't give a flying fuck about people , all they want is money.........and I'm afraid that does'nt work in a small town.

Jonno :cool:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:12 PM
Well there you go. You did a cash job and as a consequence you got ripped off. If you were prepared to pay tax on it then you would have gotten the benefit of the full backing of the law.

That's where you went wrong.


Of course, I do know - better than most - that this is an idealistic way of looking at things but if ever I do a cash job for someone (:o), I make absolutely sure that there is no way in the world I'm going to get ripped off.

You failed to organise the job properly, sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. People are gits.

So you'd do/done cash jobs?
What if you both agreed on a price and then finished and they changed their minds and only paid you half?
What would you do?

And I organised the job perfectly, the job itself went fine, I got round all problems presented and finished in time.

And yes people are gits..............so am I.

Edit: Oh yeah, he also wrongfully acused me of stealing £200 from the till, so I could take him to court for that too really could'nt I.

manker
09-05-2005, 04:20 PM
Well there you go. You did a cash job and as a consequence you got ripped off. If you were prepared to pay tax on it then you would have gotten the benefit of the full backing of the law.

That's where you went wrong.


Of course, I do know - better than most - that this is an idealistic way of looking at things but if ever I do a cash job for someone (:o), I make absolutely sure that there is no way in the world I'm going to get ripped off.

You failed to organise the job properly, sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. People are gits.

So you'd do/done cash jobs?
What if you both agreed on a price and then finished and they changed their minds and only paid you half?
What would you do?

And I organised the job perfectly, the job itself went fine, I got round all problems presented and finished in time.

And yes people are gits..............so am I.It's easier for me. I have a piece of paper in my hand and refuse to hand it over until I have their money in the other.

In your case, you should have asked for an amount up-front and the rest on completion. Making sure that the amount you receive prior to doing the work is enough to cover all costs. If he refuses then you don't do the job.

That way if he doesn't pay up when you're done - you simply 'undo' the work. You've wasted time but are not financially worse off since you've already made plans to cover your costs.

As to organising the job properly, I'm sorry but you didn't. You should have ensured that the cutter was taken back on time, you should have ensured that you had got some money up front.

Either that or you should have insisted that it was done legitimately so that you could have taken him to court if he refused to pay.

As it is now, they'd laugh at you in court. Seriously. You can't even entertain the idea with no paperwork nor prior self-employed work in the last 18 months to back up your claims.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:30 PM
Edit.

Can't be arsed, I asked a simple question, I did'nt ask to be judged on the way I ran my business or the way I do things.

I'll get whats owed one way or another.

manker
09-05-2005, 04:36 PM
If you don't want to have your private affairs comments on, don't post them and ask for them to be commented on.

You said: 'Jesus how the hell can you say I'm in the wrong???'

I told you how I thought you were in the wrong. If you don't want me to answer, don't ask in the first place.

Muppet :dry:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:40 PM
Actually I asked you about putting in a bill and if I'm still self employed, you them said I'm being dishonest.

So after reading all that and my resignation stating about health risks and bad working conditions you still say I'm in the wrong?

I also asked what you would do if you agreed on a cash job then only got half pay, but you did'nt answer that did you?

Edit: Also you say I'm in the wrong cos I "Should have done this and should have done that" well I did'nt, so you saying what you think I should have done is no help whatsoever is it.

Guillaume
09-05-2005, 04:44 PM
So after reading all that and my resignation stating about health risks and bad working conditions you still say I'm in the wrong?
Well, if you can't get him on the money thing, can't you turn him in to some authority for that. :shifty:



I also asked what you would do if you agreed on a cash job then only got half pay, but you did'nt answer that did you?
He did.

It's easier for me. I have a piece of paper in my hand and refuse to hand it over until I have their money in the other.

manker
09-05-2005, 04:46 PM
So after reading all that and my resignation stating about health risks and bad working conditions you still say I'm in the wrong?

I also asked what you would do if you agreed on a cash job then only got half pay, but you did'nt answer that did you?I'm saying that you did certain things wrong. I'm not saying that you did everything wrong. This is not black and white but if you'd did those other things correctly then you wouldn't have been out of pocket.

Also, it's clear that your boss did more things wrong than you and is an utter git - you have been wronged.


I did answer you. I wouldn't give him the work until he paid the other half. If he didn't pay then I'd still have half the money. Given it's a cash job, I've still made a tidy profit.

I don't do that many because of the nature of my work - they want to claim my fee as a tax-deductible expense in 95% of cases but when it's not an issue, I take certain steps to ensure that I don't end up out of pocket.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:48 PM
No, thats talking about something different, you don't get paid upfront in building very often, only for materials (which he paid for).

And yes I am reporting him to health and saftey and trading standards, also the people who deal with offliscence laws as he sells out of legal hours.
I was'nt going to because I'm generally not like that, but I'm fucked off now so I'm gonna hurt his wallet as much as I can.

@Manker.... lol funny enough it is black and white, and like I said, saying things I can't change is no help at all, I posted in here because I wanted advice and help, not to be told I should have done this or that.
To be perfectly honest I did'nt want to do it, I done it more to help the staff and Azz wanted to do it cos he desperately needed the money due to baby etc, so I done it to help out people, I did'nt do it for the money, but the fact he ripped me off has fucked me right off.

manker
09-05-2005, 04:49 PM
No, thats talking about something different,Obviously, I'm not a fecking builder - that's why I said it was easier for me and outlined what steps you could have taken :frusty:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 04:52 PM
Then don't fucking tell me how to run a building business! ffs!! :frusty:

You can't get people to pay for labour which has not taken place.........would you pay a builder for labour before they started work?

manker
09-05-2005, 04:59 PM
Then don't fucking tell me how to run a building business! ffs!! :frusty:

You can't get people to pay for labour which has not taken place.........would you pay a builder for labour before they started work?I'm telling you how to administrate it. Not how to lay a floor, I'd be clueless.

If a builder was doing a cash job for me, and it was saving me money, yes, I'd pay some up front if he insisted on it and I trusted him implicitly. However, if it was a big job lasting several days then I'd insist that it was done properly so I could get a receipt and legal rights should anything go wrong.


If you have no way of safeguarding your interests then don't do the job, it's as simple as that. Otherwise, at some point, you'll end up with some arsehole who won't pay.

I don't think you can disagree.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 05:11 PM
No thats very true, I don't dissagree with that at all.
But like I said, I done it as a favour and in good will expecting the same in return.
I completed my part of the deal, he did'nt. He needs to learn the values of a bond by word. And he will.

Altho I think your opinion can't be very acurate considering you've never been in the trade, it's a very open trade when you work on your own and not for a company, you cut corners for people (not with quality of work), you do people favours if they wish to save money and are willing to pay you cash then you can word out a gentlemens agreement.
There's not a builder in the world who has done everything above board and any that say they have are lying.

As I said, the whole thing was 2 weeks behind, I jumped in to save the day if you like and look where it got me. So what do you do? never do anyone a favour? don't trust anyone? thats why he's like he is, I don't wanna be a heartless wanker who does'nt gove a fuck about anything but my own bank balance, maybe thats why I'll never have much money, but at least I got a clear conscience and and liked.

Sorry for getting wound up, should'nt bite at you guys, but I really feel conned in every sense of the word, time, money, health.......and as my resig letter stated....I never got so much as a thank you for any of it.

Kinda pisses me off and it's not something I'm gonna forget in a hurry.

Jonno :cool:

manker
09-05-2005, 05:18 PM
You're a nice chap, Jonno. You're also naive. I'm really not trying to be nasty or anything, I'm being fairly blunt but I bear no malice.

You know, you can be a nice bloke and administrate your business correctly, the two aren't mutually exclusive. If you were doing people favours and hoping that people would pay you because they were also nice chaps then this situation was sadly inevitable.


As for my opinion not being very accurate. I think you'll find that what I wrote would have prevented you getting ripped off.

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 06:16 PM
I don't walk round thinking if I do good then people will do good back and all that crap, but when it's my boss, a guy I've helped a LOT, I thought considering he's a business man he might have just an ounce of decency. I was wrong.

Had it been a complete stranger I would'nt have done it, I've been asked by a mate to give him a hand concreting his drive and slabbing his back garden, I know he has'nt got much money and I'll do it for very little payment, because I help people, he'd do the same I'm sure.

My problem has always been I'm frightend to upset someone unless I get angry, I done it so many times, fixed things for people that has taken me hours/days and thought they'd give me a few quid or a drink or something.....what do I get? "Cheers mate, nice one" yet I go back for more, but if I turned round and said "Ok I'll do it for £200" I'd feel really guilty, even used to do that with customers to some extent.
I can't be funny or asertive to nice people, hence people take advantage.

This time reguarding my ex-boss is different, he's not a friend nor family member and I hav'nt known him long, respect is given automatically, if that person then does something to lose that respect then.......well........you end up feeling like I do now.

To be honest I don't know what I'm gonna do, but he's not getting away with it, no chance in hell.

Anyway, thanks for advice etc, apreciated even tho it sometimes does'nt seem so.

Jonno :cool:

manker
09-05-2005, 06:23 PM
I know what you mean.

Also, likewise I'm sometimes too blunt and don't really consider the other person's feelings when I'm talking to them on here. It seems like you're going thro' a tough time and I hope it gets better for you.

Gripper
09-05-2005, 08:14 PM
You could always tell that little toe rag that tried to break into the back shed, what goodies are in there(but that would be wrong) :naughty:

Jon L. Obscene
09-05-2005, 08:16 PM
lmao I actually thought about that :lol: but again it would be me responsible should he get caught or something goes wrong.

@Manker.... nuff said dude :) and thanks

Jonno :cool: