Is Downloading Music Stealing? Not In My... [Archive]

BlizZ

07-01-2003, 08:53 PM

Stealing or Not?

I download music.
Some people believe that it's stealing.
In my opinion, I don't think it is.

If it was stealing, then it would be going into a store and sneaking an object out to keep for yourself. When you go to the store to buy a music CD, that's not the same thing what you're getting when you DOWNLOAD an audio file. An audio file is NOT a music CD. When you download a song, thats not what you get when your buying a CD at the store, your getting a file on your computer.
Stealing (in my opinon) is NOT downloading some data with YOUR own personal computer, but is physically taking something from someone and keeping it.

When you're downloading music on the computer, you're not downloading a music CD, your downloading an audio file.

Anyways, that's what I think, PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe that it's stealing.
Everybody let me know what your opinion is. If you think it's stealing or not. ;)

2nd gen noob

07-01-2003, 09:02 PM

of course it's stealing

you're either blind or a fool (or a blind fool) not to 'see' that.
downloading a file is the same as stealing a cd from a shop

after all, the songs on the cd are files too

downloading music is stealing, and is wrong. unless it's to feed your family of course, then there's a grey area

loz

07-01-2003, 09:08 PM

it's not stealing in my opinion. :)

BlizZ

07-01-2003, 09:08 PM

If you buy a music CD, you're buying a CD with audio files in them. You're not buying an "audio file" and that's it.

2nd gen noob

07-01-2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 22:08
If you buy a music CD, you're buying a CD with audio files in them. You're not buying an "audio file" and that's it.
why do you ask for opinions and then disregard them if they disagree with your own opinion?

what about if you went to the shop, stole the cd, ripped the tracks to your computer, then put the cd back in the shop where you got it?
is that stealing?

BlizZ

07-01-2003, 09:16 PM

No, I'm just saying what I think.

J'Pol

07-01-2003, 09:24 PM

Downloading files is not theft. That would require an intent to permanently deprive the true owner, as you are making a copy then your are not doing that.

It is however breach of copyright. As you are doing this without the intention to make a pecuniary gain then the matter will normally be dealt with by civil law (they will sue you).

I'm not entirely convinced that a criminal case could be made, however I am almost certain that the CPS in England and the PF in Scotland would shun any such move. There simply isn't the time or resources to prosecute people who share for personal pleasure.

Obviously this is for the UK.

2nd gen noob

07-01-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 22:16
No, I'm just saying what I think.
yeah, but what do you think of my question?

what about if you went to the shop, stole the cd, ripped the tracks to your computer, then put the cd back in the shop where you got it?
is that stealing?

also, you have to remember that opinion has nothing to do with the law...

J'Pol

07-01-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by 2nd gen noob+1 July 2003 - 22:25--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (2nd gen noob @ 1 July 2003 - 22:25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 22:16
No, I'm just saying what I think.
yeah, but what do you think of my question?

what about if you went to the shop, stole the cd, ripped the tracks to your computer, then put the cd back in the shop where you got it?
is that stealing?

also, you have to remember that opinion has nothing to do with the law... [/b][/quote]
See my last. It would not be theft per se.

However I'm sure it would be some other offense (don't have the slightest idea what tho').

Similar to taking a car and driving it without the owners consent. "Twocing" I think they call it. You don't intend to keep it from them, just take it and use it for a while then they can get it back.

2nd gen noob

07-01-2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by JPaul+1 July 2003 - 22:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 1 July 2003 - 22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by 2nd gen noob@1 July 2003 - 22:25
<!--QuoteBegin-BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 22:16
No, I'm just saying what I think.
yeah, but what do you think of my question?

what about if you went to the shop, stole the cd, ripped the tracks to your computer, then put the cd back in the shop where you got it?
is that stealing?

also, you have to remember that opinion has nothing to do with the law...
See my last. It would not be theft per se.

However I'm sure it would be some other offense (don't have the slightest idea what tho').

Similar to taking a car and driving it without the owners consent. "Twocing" I think they call it. You don't intend to keep it from them, just take it and use it for a while then they can get it back. [/b][/quote]
well, i've got to say that i disagree with you on this one JPaul.
i repsect your opinion, however, i maintain that downloading music is theft

i think we should agree to disagree on this one...

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-01-2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by 2nd gen noob@1 July 2003 - 22:02
of course it's stealing

you're either blind or a fool (or a blind fool) not to 'see' that.
downloading a file is the same as stealing a cd from a shop

after all, the songs on the cd are files too

downloading music is stealing, and is wrong. unless it's to feed your family of course, then there's a grey area
Sorry mate, its not stealing! as your not permanently depriving anyone of anything only making a copy its not theft, alls your doing is breaking copy right laws which lets face it nearly everyone has a copy of something.

J'Pol

07-01-2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by 2nd gen noob+1 July 2003 - 22:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (2nd gen noob @ 1 July 2003 - 22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by JPaul@1 July 2003 - 22:30

Originally posted by 2nd gen noob@1 July 2003 - 22:25
<!--QuoteBegin-BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 22:16
No, I'm just saying what I think.
yeah, but what do you think of my question?

what about if you went to the shop, stole the cd, ripped the tracks to your computer, then put the cd back in the shop where you got it?
is that stealing?

also, you have to remember that opinion has nothing to do with the law...
See my last. It would not be theft per se.

However I'm sure it would be some other offense (don't have the slightest idea what tho').

Similar to taking a car and driving it without the owners consent. "Twocing" I think they call it. You don't intend to keep it from them, just take it and use it for a while then they can get it back.
well, i've got to say that i disagree with you on this one JPaul.
i repsect your opinion, however, i maintain that downloading music is theft

i think we should agree to disagree on this one... [/b][/quote]
I see where you are coming from, however I am only making the legal distinction, not a moral / ethical one.

The Theft Act 1968 requires that the offender has the intention to permanently deprive the rightful owner of the goods.

I do not see how this can be the case when copying (something which is already a copy)

I suppose I am being legally pedantic in this. However if anyone is ever in the position of being sued or prosecuted then that is exactly what will happen.

PS thanks for that, I have every respect for your opinions as well. You are one of the posters who I read with interest.

Mutt_Head

07-01-2003, 10:29 PM

I wouldn't class downloading music as stealing but its kinda close, you are also breaking the law which is as bad as if u were stealing, i personally see no problem with file sharing. but 2nd gen noob has a good point about the taking it and putting it back thing, that is stealing but a very gud idea, keep 'em coming :P

tianup

07-01-2003, 11:26 PM

:blink: Whatever. Anyone downloading music or anything they didn't pay for is a THIEF.

I download lots of music that I don't pay for, and am under no illusions.

I am directly appropriating revenue-generating property from the artist/creator/manufacturer. Even if I think they "deserve" it, or don't need the $.

I try to dl from large acts where most of the money goes to the label (still stealing), but I sometimes just dl whatever I want - sorry indies - I am an artist too.

You can justify it however you like; they have lots of money already; I'm broke; can't buy the record; the artist is dead; it's not "property; etc.

Doesn't matter. It's still stealing.

However, until the recording industry restructures the cost and process of it's products, I will continue "stealing". If the music was readily available and reasonably priced, this would never have happened.

Peace ;)

MagicNakor

07-01-2003, 11:54 PM

JPaul's right. It isn't theft. Not by the legal definition of it, anyway. The organizations who keep trying to shut down P2P throw that word around because the general populace will understand "theft" more than "breach of copyright."

:ninja:

J'Pol

07-02-2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by MagicNakor@2 July 2003 - 00:54
JPaul's right. It isn't theft. Not by the legal definition of it, anyway. The organizations who keep trying to shut down P2P throw that word around because the general populace will understand "theft" more than "breach of copyright."

:ninja:
Good point, well made. It's a fear / disruption thing.

Switeck

07-02-2003, 12:27 AM

An even bigger copyright violation is the perpetual extensions of copyright timeperiods, retroactively applied.

Public domain is 'legally' locked out of works that should've been free to copy years ago.

Music artists have been robbed both of the ownership of what they develope AND the sales of it by the music industry -- signed into indentured servitude (contracts extending longer than legal for any other profession) and paid only after the music industry gets its 'fill' of the profits. This is the same as auto workers and designers not being paid till the assembly line and everyone in the supply chain shows a profit...

Messican

07-02-2003, 12:27 AM

Of course it's stealing!

BlizZ

07-02-2003, 01:07 AM

aight

TheDigable

07-02-2003, 01:52 AM

I do think that there is a bit of a grey zone however with regards to calling something stealing...

I mean, aren't we sharing??

If my friend lends me a CD...and I copy it...would that be stealing or sharing?? :huh:

ohh...and Welcome to Me!

theprisoner

07-02-2003, 05:16 AM

No, i dont believe it is "stealing". The person(someone bought the CD!) your uploading from has let you have the file, which is sharing. Its not stealing unless someone in the first place stole the CD(store/work) and is stealing. I see it as sharing if someone bought it in the first place. Anyone saying it is "stealing", why are you using k-lite then?

I'm_going_slightly_mad

07-02-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 15:53
Stealing or Not?

I download music.
Some people believe that it's stealing.
In my opinion, I don't think it is.

If it was stealing, then it would be going into a store and sneaking an object out to keep for yourself. When you go to the store to buy a music CD, that's not the same thing what you're getting when you DOWNLOAD an audio file. An audio file is NOT a music CD. When you download a song, thats not what you get when your buying a CD at the store, your getting a file on your computer.
Stealing (in my opinon) is NOT downloading some data with YOUR own personal computer, but is physically taking something from someone and keeping it.

When you're downloading music on the computer, you're not downloading a music CD, your downloading an audio file.

Anyways, that's what I think, PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe that it's stealing.
Everybody let me know what your opinion is. If you think it's stealing or not.  ;)
Good post. I agree with you. Downloading and sharing musical files is not stealing.

Arrg, Mateys! :pirate:

balamm

07-02-2003, 08:14 AM

How did this little gem get overlooked ?

BlizZ

PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe....

Isn't there a thread full of these in the lounge ?

BlizZ

07-02-2003, 01:45 PM

BlizZ

QUOTE 
PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe.... 

Yes, what's wrong with it?
Yes, I'm Christian, and I don't want to believe that it's stealing.
That doesn't change the fact of me believing it's not stealing anyway, even if I AM Christian or not.

But anyway, lets not change the subject into religion, :)

loz

07-02-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by balamm@2 July 2003 - 08:14
How did this little gem get overlooked ?

BlizZ

PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe....

Isn't there a thread full of these in the lounge ?
because it's irrelevant
Anyway I say it's not stealing because... I own some of the music I download on CD/ tape. Secondly it's not stealing because 90% of the stuff I download that I don't already own legally I wouldn't have bought anyway! :)

matt_helgren18

07-02-2003, 02:52 PM

Yes it is stealing. But that doesn't mean it doesnt have legit uses. If more artists would target advertising their work on programs like kazaa, i think more people would buy it. I had Marilyn Manson's newest CD The Golden Age of Grotesque (a true work of art) a month before it was released. But i bought it the day it came to stores because i felt i had to support it. Maybe if more groups would make music worth paying for, people would like to support it like i did with that.

BlizZ

07-02-2003, 05:38 PM

Hey yall, speaking of "not changing the subject", why is it whenever you put your curser over the logo at the top left "K-Lite Discussion Board", text appears that says, "Powered By RIAA"... I don't get it, the RIAA is in charge of the K-LITE Discussion Board? what :blink:

J'Pol

07-02-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by BlizZ@2 July 2003 - 18:38
Hey yall, speaking of "not changing the subject", why is it whenever you put your curser over the logo at the top left "K-Lite Discussion Board", text appears that says, "Powered By RIAA"... I don't get it, the RIAA is in charge of the K-LITE Discussion Board? what :blink:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Never seen that before, someone having a wee pop at the RIAA perchance.

Cole

07-03-2003, 06:56 AM

Its not stealing. Its called SHARING.

modit

07-03-2003, 05:18 PM

I Agree with "cole" i that it is shearing :D , i mean, they don't go after people with hundreds of recorded vhs tapes of stuff they recorded off the t.v. are people who share cd's with each other going to be targeted next????? what about minidisc, every one at my school borows each others cd's to put onto minidisc, or even copy a mini disc. What about the DVD recorders for the t.v. they must be illegal as well???? why not just let us get on with our sharing on p2p programs, i am a teenager, if i wern't at home using my pc, i would probably be doing worse things on the streets. with p2p it is about sharring, for instance. i had never heard of linkin park a couple of years ago, till i downloaded there hybrid album, i liked it!!!! :D so i went down to the shops and bought it, and have bought every album after that they have made, and like them all. i am discovering more artists i like and am buying there products which i would never had thought of doing, untill i had kazza lite. I feel it is more like a community sharing items with each other. it is not like these so called artists go without anything. <_< so share!!!!!!!

yNd aznbnet

07-03-2003, 05:22 PM

I laugh at the bounds some people go to in attempts to defend their own thievery. You're only lying to yourself. You are stealing, the quicker you admit that the better.

J'Pol

07-03-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by yNd aznbnet@3 July 2003 - 18:22
You are stealing, the quicker you admit that the better.
Why, what happens when people admit that ?

Something good obviously. Please enlighten us, I for one am intrigued.

yNd aznbnet

07-03-2003, 05:40 PM

What happens when people admit it? For one, they won't be lying to themselves, isn't that a reward enough? Some people are content with sacrificing the truth for personal comfort. How did I know this guy was a christian by simply reading his opening paragraph and thread title?

BTW, nice avatar :)

one more thing, the christian understone was evident in the thread title alone. I came to that conclusion before I read the closing sentance of his original post

J'Pol

07-03-2003, 06:31 PM

Do you consider it to be stealing in a moral sense, or a legal sense, or both.

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-03-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by yNd aznbnet@3 July 2003 - 18:22
I laugh at the bounds some people go to in attempts to defend their own thievery. You're only lying to yourself. You are stealing, the quicker you admit that the better.
Its called sharing mate, your getting abit confused!!!!

yNd aznbnet

07-03-2003, 06:50 PM

Confused about what? The fact that something is called sharing does not negate the fact that it's also stealing.

J'Pol

07-03-2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by yNd aznbnet@3 July 2003 - 19:50
Confused about what? The fact that something is called sharing does not negate the fact that it's also stealing.
So what´s the actual offence. It´s okay to glibly say it´s stealing, but what law is being broken.

It´s Breach of copyright in my opinion.

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-03-2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by yNd aznbnet@3 July 2003 - 19:50
Confused about what? The fact that something is called sharing does not negate the fact that it's also stealing.
Going into a record store and taking a cd with out paying for it is stealing, going around to someones house and copying a cd from them is not stealing!

I cant make it anymore straight forward than that for you, as jpaul said alls we are doing is breaking copy right laws.

MagicNakor

07-03-2003, 11:36 PM

Looks like their use of throwing around "stealing" and "theft" is working. ;)

:ninja:

Xanex

07-03-2003, 11:36 PM

Stealing or not stealing, thats a tough one alright.

I don't think it's stealing but it comes damm close.

I was thinking along the lines of money, you are getting something for nothing when you recieve shared files which is like stealing, you are getting something for nothing.
If anything it's kinda like being in reciept of stolen goods, classified as stealing in some lesser courts.

I could go out and buy this cd/game/whatever OR i could download it for free, so ergo i am getting something for nothing and the company that made it also get nothing yet they havent lost anything but the potential to sell another copy of the media. I think thats what people classify as stealing since you are in reciept of a product that you didn't pay for that to get legally you would have to pay for.

Hmm i dunno, stealing not stealing stealing stealin steal ste st sssssssssss......

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BlizZ

07-04-2003, 03:49 AM

Hmm i dunno, stealing not stealing stealing stealin steal ste st sssssssssss......

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Lol,, very uhhmm... creative.. hehe :lol:

Raid3r

07-04-2003, 04:43 PM

Well I am going to have to say....Did SOMEONE buy the thing yes...so SOMEONE is putting it on the p2p network. WHY? cause this person likes to share the wealth the wealth that some ppl barely have. Comon ppl get to the facts 15 to 20 bucks for this cd. Get real, obvioulsy we are all missing the point that they charge waaaaay to much for this item. Its not a book it takes one "oops" and 1 or 4 songs may not work anymore. Believe me I agree with the artist price but not the producer. I could say alot more but what would be the point.

conc: SOMEONE bought it......period.

endezeichen

07-04-2003, 05:35 PM

Not stealing???????? just because it's not a physical item doesnt mean it's not stealing. If someone leaves their computer logged onto their bank account and you have 8,000$ wired to you that's not stealing because it's only and electronic signal??????
comon get a clue man

J'Pol

07-04-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by endezeichen@4 July 2003 - 18:35
Not stealing???????? just because it's not a physical item doesnt mean it's not stealing. If someone leaves their computer logged onto their bank account and you have 8,000$ wired to you that's not stealing because it's only and electronic signal??????
comon get a clue man
Specious and irrelevant.

ultramagna

07-04-2003, 08:50 PM

Hey, I joined on 4th of July 2003!

Anyway:

Violating copyright laws=theft

So, what's going to happen is the same ol' thing. The internet is vast and nobody expected that problems to certain industry would arise from this. Too many people participate in file sharing to stop. Industry will continue to invent measures on ceasing file sharing. New products, loopholes, slight-of-hand, will come out to bypass those measures. Etc., etc.

This will continue...Congress will try and pass laws...people will protest...those laws will fall, and so on and so forth.

Hey, the internet was born for one reason and one reason only, to make life easier. And if downloading a track to listen to in the peace and quiet of your own home is what ya wanna do, then so be it. ;)

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-04-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by ultramagna@4 July 2003 - 21:50
Hey, I joined on 4th of July 2003!

Anyway:

Violating copyright laws=theft

So, what's going to happen is the same ol' thing. The internet is vast and nobody expected that problems to certain industry would arise from this. Too many people participate in file sharing to stop. Industry will continue to invent measures on ceasing file sharing. New products, loopholes, slight-of-hand, will come out to bypass those measures. Etc., etc.

This will continue...Congress will try and pass laws...people will protest...those laws will fall, and so on and so forth.

Hey, the internet was born for one reason and one reason only, to make life easier. And if downloading a track to listen to in the peace and quiet of your own home is what ya wanna do, then so be it. ;)
Is copying a friends cd theft???? if you think it is please tell us why??? is recoring a program off the t.v theft???

ultramagna

07-04-2003, 10:33 PM

First of all, the part of which I wished to stress the most was everything after the part where I stated violatiing copyright=theft.

Anyway, to answer your question. Why do you think if a large company violates another company's copyright laws, they are sued and usually lose? This loss usually comes by monetary payback or cease and desist of the violation, etc.

Just because you're one individual doesn't give you just cause to get away with a violation which is hurting a company. The real reason the company(s) do not go after just one individual is because it will not help their cause whatsoever cuz so many individuals are doing the same thing. That's why they will go after the biggest offenders and make an example of them -- just as it works as if it were corporation against corporation.

Hey, tell it to the judge (If your'e caught). I only mean to stress the other stuff I said about this mess going on for a while yet. Remember, the people (you and me) have spoken and we are not satisfied by the music industry's prices - bottom line.

MagicNakor

07-04-2003, 11:00 PM

Actually, violating copyrights = breach of copyright, not theft. ;)

:ninja:

EnJoi

07-04-2003, 11:10 PM

why are u guys arguing about this to get ya post count up yes it is illegal

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-04-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by EnJoi@5 July 2003 - 00:10
why are u guys arguing about this to get ya post count up yes it is illegal
Thats one thing we all can agree on that its illegal, but who gives a toss about post counts??!!! its only a number.

TIBZ

07-04-2003, 11:32 PM

ok well theres a big difference between gettin a CD from the store and downloadin it well if u were to steal the CD it wud have the cover the booklet and the CD cover and all that shit when u download it it dont have that shit so i dont really think of it as stealing and plus the people that put that stuff up r the stealers ur just taking it from them under their permission

60sveteran

07-05-2003, 01:27 AM

Hi! I've supported the music industry since I was 9 yrs old (I'm over 50), when I saved my allowance for 2 wks to buy a 78-RPM record by the Everly Bros. ('Bird Dog' with 'Devoted To You' on the 'B' side). Over the many years since I've acquired and lost more record collections than I can remember. Some albums I've bought several times over simply because I couldn't bear to be without them. Most of the music I d/l I've bought at one time or another. Am I stealing? Probably, but I don't care. The RIAA (& its members) has extracted its lb of flesh (& then some) from me, so I don't feel a bit guilty. CD's are way overpriced and with file-sharing, I get to experience a lot of stuff I wouldn't be able to afford otherwise. From the musician's point of view-the potential audience for their material is unlimited-not an unattractive notion to them, I'm sure. (Incidentally, that 1st Everly Bros. 78-RPM record I bought some 45 yrs ago? I left it in the sun briefly & it melted-forcing me to save up another 98 cents to replace it. Thanks to file-sharing that won't ever happen again.) Thanks for listening.

iwalrus

07-05-2003, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by tiba06@4 July 2003 - 23:32
plus the people that put that stuff up r the stealers ur just taking it from them under their permission
Sorry, man, I believe recieving stolen property [with the foreknowledge of it's stolen origin] is still a crime. This is why you don't buy PlayStation 2's out of the back of a car ;) ;)

Is it stealing? If you haven't bought the CD it is. The artist make a product, the compaines sell it to make profit. If you take it without buying it, you are, in essence, stealing. However, do the stores which you would normally buy the CD from buy the CDs from the company then re-sell it to you and eat what they don't sell, or do they just pay when they sell and send back the unsold? If it's the former then it's already been bought for you and you're not stealing at all, now are you? The original maker has been reimbursed already...

Anyway, most of the song I download are from CDs/33s/45s I already have, and those that aren't serve as samples to the stuff I will buy, most likely. If I don't like the song/artist, it gets the Recycle Bin.

This is not justification of course, just the mindset I use to keep my conscience clean.

There is a brighter side to p2p, isn't there? most of the local bands 'round here get their stuff out through file sharing. It's the only way to really get a fanbase, give them the songs they want, get them loving it, then hawk the CDs they burned on their computers and T-shirts they printed from their PCs.

But I'm weird.

BlizZ

07-05-2003, 07:30 PM

Tiba06:
ok well theres a big difference between gettin a CD from the store and downloadin it well if u were to steal the CD it wud have the cover the booklet and the CD cover and all that shit when u download it it dont have that shit so i dont really think of it as stealing

Yes, good point,, that's EXACALLY what I mean.

theFUZmixman

07-05-2003, 09:25 PM

Stealing?????? No... theft? No... how the hell could we steal something that was readily available under the users consent..? Bullshit. Its no different then recording a song off of the radio. That is not theft. That is simply liking a piece of music and recording it to listen to it again.... Breeching copyright? Fuck copyright laws. Now, if you were to record something, then SELL IT, that would be wrong. Kazaa users don't recieve money. Actually, they don't really recieve anything other then gradification from other users for sharing with the community. Think of how kazaa even works. Somebody has to purchase a cd, this user burns his/her cd collection to their computer for others to hear, thereby spreading the word about that particular artist. The more someone likes an artist the more inclined they are to perhaps invest in a ticket to concert in there area, or continue to tell others about them which will eventually lead to more exposure for the artist. I don't see how that is wrong. I am a musician and the more people who hear my voice the better.
We are talking about music. Something that has been shared with other ears for centuries. Why should it stop now?

funny_bunny

07-05-2003, 11:47 PM

The issue isn't about the physical nature of a compact disc. It is about the intellectual copyright contained within the material on the compact disc.
All countries have laws pertaining to this copyright which tend to suggest that if you did not buy the right to this content then possesion is unlawful!
So, based on the law, filesharing is unlawful.
Now, let's look at this from a different perspective.
I download one track from the new Eminem (say) album from a filesharing comunity. The reason I only download one track is because the rest of the album sucks and there is no way in hell I am ever going to buy this CD. How much has the music industry lost? Nothing.
Whoops! Sorry; I bought the propaganda version there for a minute. What I should have said is how much has Eminem lost? After all, it is his music!
I have more to say but want some feed-back on this first. :)

ultramagna

07-06-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by MagicNakor@4 July 2003 - 16:00
Actually, violating copyrights = breach of copyright, not theft. ;)

:ninja:
Same thing. You'all getting into semantecs again. You're not minding their copyright=taking what you've not paid 4=theft.

All I have to say is the music industry is screwed (the Producers). The good artists I fully support (except Metallica). They deserve all the glory (money). Not the producers.

If it worked that way, cd's would cost a dime and the Artists would get all the profits. That would work out to about the same as if you take out the middle man producers :)

ultramagna

07-06-2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by funny_bunny@5 July 2003 - 16:47
I download one track from the new Eminem (say) album from a filesharing comunity. The reason I only download one track is because the rest of the album sucks and there is no way in hell I am ever going to buy this CD. How much has the music industry lost? Nothing.
Well, provided that you were never given the opportunity to get that one song elsewhere or by other means, you never know. Deep down the music industry is betting that you would have layed down the dough for that one song just to play in your car to impress friends of your new track :)

MagicNakor

07-06-2003, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by ultramagna+6 July 2003 - 01:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ultramagna @ 6 July 2003 - 01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MagicNakor@4 July 2003 - 16:00
Actually, violating copyrights = breach of copyright, not theft. ;)

:ninja:
Same thing. You'all getting into semantecs again. You're not minding their copyright=taking what you've not paid 4=theft.

All I have to say is the music industry is screwed (the Producers). The good artists I fully support (except Metallica). They deserve all the glory (money). Not the producers.

If it worked that way, cd's would cost a dime and the Artists would get all the profits. That would work out to about the same as if you take out the middle man producers :) [/b][/quote]
No, I'm not getting into semantics, unless you feel using actual legal terms is doing just that. If you get caught, they won't nail you for theft. They'll nail you for copyright infringement. In the legal system, the two have different requirements. The RIAA and folks like them throw around the word "theft" because it sounds more threatening to the average person, and it's more likely to be understood than "copyright infringement." Theft is when a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (generally for selling). Copyright infringement is the improper use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. I hope that clears it up for you.

:ninja:

mandagoShare

07-06-2003, 01:06 AM

:zorro: What we are doing follows an alternate economic mode. Big busniess is unable to adjust to the possibilities of technology quickly enough to realize a profit. The internet was designed to facilitate the free exchange of ideas. A concept that is anthematic to copyright laws.

I am NOT getting somthing for nothing. I abide by the rules of this community I take what I want and in return I make available that which others want.

The RIAA would say that because they do not realize a profit from the exchange that exchange should not be allowed, but I have been to many gagage sales, pawn shops, second hand stores and swap meets do the CDs in these places constitute copyright violation? Sure you bet but the RIAA dosen't go after these folks

Sorry to go on different tangents

Here is the bottom line goods recieved in exchange for other goods is NOT theft.

The RIAA would like to scare you into being a thief.

You ARE stealing if you download without allowing uploads :zorro:

ultramagna

07-06-2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by MagicNakor@5 July 2003 - 17:40

Theft is when a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent
:ninja:
Now isn't what you just said what we are all doing??? Music from an artist is personal property. I'm taking it without his consent (buy not purchasing it) and I'm passing it on to others. This is the exact same thing as software pirating. Company's victim of software pirating don't stand still allowing you to have their software without paying for it, do they??? They will sue the hell out of you.

I'm against those big bullies, but I can see why they've resorted to using such terms, because we wouldn't see the truth behind it if they didn't use those terms -- just as you are arguing now. But ya gotta admit. In the end. It's all the same thing. The property is just not ours until we pay for it.

Just continue not to buy their music and they will have to make it less expensive for the people to buy. That's all that can be done as long as file sharing exists.

TIBZ

07-06-2003, 01:09 AM

Sorry, man, I believe recieving stolen property [with the foreknowledge of it's stolen origin] is still a crime. This is why you don't buy PlayStation 2's out of the back of a car

well umm how do u no for sure that the ps2 is stolen????

mandagoShare

07-06-2003, 01:12 AM

ultramagna

07-06-2003, 01:24 AM

The rule of thumb here is: Don't buy their music if you think it's too expensive. They are not forcing you to.

In the end, they will see what they have done and we all will be buying music at a fair price and file sharing will have no bearing, in fact, it will be totally legal, because everybody will still buy what they download and share :).

MagicNakor

07-06-2003, 04:24 AM

Personal property and intellectual property also have different meanings. :rolleyes: Forget it, their brainwashing scheme's worked too well.

:ninja:

AR8

07-06-2003, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 21:08
If you buy a music CD, you're buying a CD with audio files in them. You're not buying an "audio file" and that's it.
So? A CD is a bunch of songs/audio files put on to a disc, so, even if you download one audio file, you are stealing a part of the CD, so it IS stealing... I'm sure you are saying this just so you feel better about downloading music :P

yNd aznbnet

07-06-2003, 05:25 AM

:P :D :rolleyes: B) You're only stealing if the tracks you download are 320kbps or above !!!! ;) ;)

Switeck

07-06-2003, 06:38 AM

Irregardless of whether we're 'stealing' from them, they are stealing from us.

And I don't mean money.

They (RIAA/MPAA/BSA) are conspiring to destroy history itself, and they are using whatever money we give them to do so.

The patent and copyright extensions and more brutal enforcement laws they are always asking for serve to create a society that has totally lost access to past information.

A book/song/movie/tv show can only be preserved if it can be copied.

They are seeking to make this both illegal AND impossible for us to do so. (to hedge their bets.)

When libraries cannot stock their shelves with books, songs, movies, and tv shows (because of the huge costs/out-of-print materials) -- what remains to preserve a collective memory of history?

I am in no hurry to become a member of a soon-to-be-lost civilization.

fearofthedark

07-06-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by modit@3 July 2003 - 17:18
i am discovering more artists i like and am buying there products which i would never had thought of doing
Me too. I had 3 albums til I started downloading music. Now I have over 60. Only 25% of my mp3 colection isn't mine, and I will get round to buynig the Cds eventually. I use p2p to try before i buy most of the time. If I don't like it, I usually delete it after a while. Its people who hardly own any Cds and just download 1000s of mp3s who are the main thieves.

TheDigable

07-06-2003, 05:21 PM

Just because something is in your opinion too expensive, does not make it your God given right to download it for free until it's cheap enough for you to afford. :huh: That's just silly. There's lots of stuff I can't afford.

The point of the matter however, is that music does not give you a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE if you're not satisfied with the product. Most other industries do. If I bought a bag of potatoes and 10 of the 15 potatoes were spoiled, I could return the bag. If I got a CD player, and I didn't like the way it functioned, I'd take it back for a refund. Hell, people take clothes back to the store....and that's clothes that they have already tried on(bathing suits excepted). So what the RIAA should do is give us a money back guarantee on our product or/and allow us to buy singles individually without the $7.00 price tag(that's not too expensive that's just plain assinine) attached to it...( I could most times do without all the shitty remixes).

Unfortunately, there will always be those who want everything for free...and, no matter how much RIAA tries to work with us and the artists, will still want everything for free. Why? Because they are freeloaders...and you can't reason with freeloaders. :blink:

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-06-2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by AR8+6 July 2003 - 05:29--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AR8 @ 6 July 2003 - 05:29)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 21:08
If you buy a music CD, you're buying a CD with audio files in them. You're not buying an "audio file" and that's it.
So? A CD is a bunch of songs/audio files put on to a disc, so, even if you download one audio file, you are stealing a part of the CD, so it IS stealing... I'm sure you are saying this just so you feel better about downloading music :P [/b][/quote]
I spoke to a judge of a crown court this morning for a good 20mins about file sharing, he told me its not classed as theft we would only be sued for breach of copyright laws.

so can we all please put an end to this topic, if you still dont believe seek some legal advise yourself :rolleyes:

ultramagna

07-07-2003, 12:40 AM

Of course, they have to have a different term when it comes to copyright stuff. Breach of copyright is theft on a conscience level.

Switeck

07-07-2003, 03:16 AM

This should be enough reason to 'pirate' with a clear conscience...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/20809.html
CD anti-piracy system can nuke hi-fi kit (turns out it probably won't though...)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/20945.html
'Hi-fi nuking' CD technology safe claims developer

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/21092.html
Music biz patents anti-rip encryption technology

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?...p?id=ns99991783 (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991783)
Philips says copy-protected CDs have no future

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23736.html
Philips moves to put 'poison' label on protected audio CDs

http://www.theinquirer.net/03040213.htm
HP, others face multi-million CD suit

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/24947.html
Brit music indies want copy-protected CDs

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/25274.html
Marker pens, sticky tape crack music CD protection

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/26969.html
Music labels are bleeding - Midbar

http://cryptome.org/jg-wwwcp.htm
What's Wrong With Content Protection.txt

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/27960.html
'No more music CDs without copy protection,' claims BMG unit

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28009.html
All CDs will be protected and you are a filthy pirate
(Music company reply back to a user's problems that the CD is 'broken' because it won't play in his PC)

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,...7,58081,00.html (http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58081,00.html)
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8416
US Congressman recommends jail for file traders

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/30074.html
Cut software piracy and jumpstart 'stagnant' economies

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/18130.html
MPAA believes all Netizens are criminals

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/24208.html
MPAA's Valenti pushes for copy-control PCs

http://tech.msn.com/IP/MSNART130.asp
The end of CD copying?

http://msn.com.com/2100-1106-852952.html
New CD protection won't play on PCs

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=39...ead&cid=4214275 (http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=39429&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=103&mode=thread&cid=4214275)
A letter to Congress [urging the withdrawl of manditory copy protections]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27064.html
US Dept of Commerce talks DRM with consumer groups

http://www.fastcompany.com/online/60/monopolist.html
Memo to: Media Monopolists

http://david.weekly.org/writings/sap.php3
Secure Audio Path: A Bad Way To Go

http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html
http://www.janisian.com/article-fallout.html
1 music artist's perspective of CD copy protections and Napster

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/20839.html
Congress attempts to force Media giants to play fair

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.02/dirge.html
The Year The Music Dies

http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/20030206.html
DVD Rot Appears To be An Issue

http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/powell.html
Big media have an ally in new FCC chair Michael Powell

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2003/02/1...partner=newscom (http://www.forbes.com/technology/2003/02/10/cx_ah_0203tv.html?partner=newscom)
Pirates & Paranoids - Recording Restricted

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-912695.html?tag=nl
Apple: Play music at your own risk

Xanex

07-07-2003, 10:02 AM

OK i thought long and hard since my last brain crash and came up with this.

When you buy a CD you are not buying the music, thats silly you dont own the music the artist does. What you are actually buying is the license to listen to the music.

This license is made for you, there is only one license, and it permits you to have one back up copy of the music providing that both arent being used at the same time, and if the orgienal is destroyed. It alkows you to play the copy of the music anywhere anytime. You can resell, give, trade etc as long as the media is no longer in your possesion after the said event... You are not selling the music on (say) you are mearly transferring the ownership of the license

So when you copy and trade media, you are giving someone the media to use when they dont have a valid license to use the media, you or the other recipient are not stealling you are breaching copyright laws since you are not granted the ability to make other licenses for other people.

SO ergo its breach of copyright , not stealing!!!

You people think like the RIAA when you say its stealing, if you move your position to that of the user and not the company then you will see.

What is being traded illegaly is licenses not music. Since the masses wont understand "breach of copyright" they escallate the crime to "theft" which has more defined boundarys in a public sense.

If you record something off the radio or tv for that particular broadcast the broadcasters would have to have applied for a public license, hence that particular copy of the music for that time in question is public, avaliable to all.

My £0.02

Xan

AquaBlaze

07-07-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 20:53
Stealing (in my opinon) is NOT downloading some data with YOUR own personal computer, but is physically taking something from someone and keeping it.
So...by your logic, it would be all fine and dandy if I were to hack into your bank, and transfer your funds over to mine? I mean, I haven't PHYSICALLY done anything...all I've done is manipulate data using MY computer, that's all.

Fatal Error

07-07-2003, 02:35 PM

:blink: :blink: Ok.. ponder this: How many of the people that got busted by the RIAA/MPAA where charged with THEFT?..none. They were ALL charged under violations of the copyrite statuates.

Why do artists copyrite their works(?) .. to PREVENT others from duplicating/copying it and then offering that work as a GENUINE item for PROFIT..this was the original INTENT of the copyrite statuates..it was never intended to be applied to people that copy a file for their PERSONAL USE.
I'm also reasonably confident that most P2P users dont copy these files with the intent to sell them.. those that do SHOULD be prosecuted.

The arguement here is that once the file is offered for distribution (upload) it no longer falls within the realm of "personal use"

Are we stealing these files? NO. Under the LEGAL definition of theft.. we would have to PHYSICALLY DEPRIVE the owner of their property. Since we are making a copy of that file; and not removing it from the owners possession thereby depriving them of its use.. the legal criteria for the offense has not been met, and does not apply.

There is a very huge difference between copying a file and COUNTERFITTING a product for profit.. the likes of the RIAA/MPAA would like you to think that people that share files are doing the later when they are not. ;)

Just my 2 cents worth..

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-07-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Fatal Error@7 July 2003 - 15:35
:blink: :blink: Ok.. ponder this: How many of the people that got busted by the RIAA/MPAA where charged with THEFT?..none. They were ALL charged under violations of the copyrite statuates.

Why do artists copyrite their works(?) .. to PREVENT others from duplicating/copying it and then offering that work as a GENUINE item for PROFIT..this was the original INTENT of the copyrite statuates..it was never intended to be applied to people that copy a file for their PERSONAL USE.
I'm also reasonably confident that most P2P users dont copy these files with the intent to sell them.. those that do SHOULD be prosecuted.

The arguement here is that once the file is offered for distribution (upload) it no longer falls within the realm of "personal use"

Are we stealing these files? NO. Under the LEGAL definition of theft.. we would have to PHYSICALLY DEPRIVE the owner of their property. Since we are making a copy of that file; and not removing it from the owners possession thereby depriving them of its use.. the legal criteria for the offense has not been met, and does not apply.

There is a very huge difference between copying a file and COUNTERFITTING a product for profit.. the likes of the RIAA/MPAA would like you to think that people that share files are doing the later when they are not. ;)

Just my 2 cents worth..
Great post, but we are wasting are time because everyone that knows anything about law knows its not theft but some people cant be told.

knightowl747

07-07-2003, 05:02 PM

I remember not so long ago when recorded hit songs from the radio. Used a dual cassette recorder to copy a friends tape. Dont remember the RIAA crying them. Whats the difference except the conveinence? Screw'em!

SeK612

07-07-2003, 06:39 PM

It is not stealing in the traditional sense (like, for example, shoplifting) but it is unlawful taking of something that does not belong to you. Sure you can call it sharing but if the person at the other end doesn't have permision to share you do not have permission to download it.

knightowl747

07-07-2003, 07:54 PM

From what I can See, There is 4.4 million people downloading right this very moment. Hmmmm!! Im not detecting any wide spread panic. Of those 4.4 mil., I wonder how many have mp3s. And How many other p2p programs doing the same. Looks like a good portion of the planet is filling up the free space on their hard drives. The RIAA is kinda like shipwreck survivor adrift in the middle of the ocean surrounded by cyber sharks.

ka_ploink

07-08-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 20:53
Stealing or Not?

I download music.
Some people believe that it's stealing.
In my opinion, I don't think it is.

If it was stealing, then it would be going into a store and sneaking an object out to keep for yourself. When you go to the store to buy a music CD, that's not the same thing what you're getting when you DOWNLOAD an audio file. An audio file is NOT a music CD. When you download a song, thats not what you get when your buying a CD at the store, your getting a file on your computer.
Stealing (in my opinon) is NOT downloading some data with YOUR own personal computer, but is physically taking something from someone and keeping it.

When you're downloading music on the computer, you're not downloading a music CD, your downloading an audio file.

Anyways, that's what I think, PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe that it's stealing.
Everybody let me know what your opinion is. If you think it's stealing or not. ;)
Okay, I'm gonna try to bring this back on topic...

The word "stealing" obviously has different meanings in different contexts. ie, I doubt Jesus or whoever wrote the christianity rules used the word stealing with knowledge of our current legal definition for it (or the concept of file-sharing!).

Blizz, I'm thinking that you're wanting to know whether or not it is stealing given the intended meaning of the word when it was used to write your religious laws. I'm thinking that it was mostly based around "don't steal 'cos it makes people unhappy". So, maybe you should be trying to work out whether file-sharing makes people unhappy or hurts them or whatever reason "stealing" was thought to be bad for.

Sorry to say, but this seems to lead to making your own decisions about what's right and wrong! I'd expect that everyone sees clear problems with not evolving our laws to allow for new social issues (ie. file-sharing), but somehow it's different for religious laws! I'm sure the advice you live by (christianity) is very good for both you and those around you, but I don't think it can decide this issue for you. I think our society has changed a bit too much.

Hope this makes sense for you (and that I don't sound too anti-religious)!

Mobas

07-08-2003, 04:36 PM

*deleted post*

BLUNTMAN99999

07-08-2003, 06:22 PM

This is a very simple topic.
To steal is to take without permission or without request.
to steal something one must actually obtain something physical
When a song or file is downloaded, The person downloading it does not actually gain any thing form it. either then a sound file, ther is no physical component to downloading. I cannot hold an mp3 in my hand. People who have bought a cd or game and have puit the iso or mp3 on a file sharing sotware company are offering to share thier purchased goods, like cds and games. We are not strealing becuase the files are open and offered to us. We are not taking without permission, we are sharing and recieving file we leave open to anyone whom feels they need it. Unlesss we were actually going into a CD store and physically taking a Cd, then this would be stealing, but since the CDs/files have been purchased, it is left open to the owere to make their decision on where the files go. Its that simeple.

knightowl747

07-08-2003, 09:09 PM

I agree. If you turn on the radio your givin music free 24/7. downloading a file isnt really any different. The songs are ripped from cds already purchased. The owner is allowing us to listen to bought goods. I doubt very few people have the intent to burn and sell what they get. If so, then they have a right to bitch.

Xanex

07-08-2003, 09:48 PM

The owner is allowing us to listen to bought goods

Actualy no. as i said b4 they dont own the music the artist does.
you are giving your music (sharing) to someone who does not have a license to play the media on their chosen hardware.

you have brought a license not the actual music.

since the music/media can be on cassette, cd, mp3 ... the medium is not the property of the artist , only the acoustic/visual nature of the medium in question . you own the physical cd/tape etc but the music is the artists.

You can copy media but u cant copy the valid license that is required to use the media.

You are not infringing on the copyrights since you are not proffeting from the music, you are gaining no money from the copy. you are not selling it off or rerecording the media as saying its your own work. if u do proffit then you are in breach of copyright. am i wrong ( just thought of that)

jrzofclay

07-09-2003, 12:45 AM

delete

ka_ploink

07-09-2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by jrzofclay@9 July 2003 - 00:45
The definition of stealing is "taking something that isn't yours or doesn't belong to you."

That sounds a lot more like I'd imagine the Christian definition to be (I don't think our current legal definition for stealing is relevant).

The only problem is, than definition (the Christian one you quoted) may have been written with the assumption that taking something from someone deprives them of that something (as information ownership was unknown). The depriving aspect would probably be why it is said to be wrong (ie. the intent of the "don't steal" rule/law may have been to stop people depriving each other of items they own). You probably need to focus more on intents than specific words.

On the other hand... if something isn't good, it is normally bad. In this case, I can't imagine that filesharing overall helps the artist / record company / owner, which kinda implies that it must be negatively affecting them (which I don't think fits in with Christianity).

knightowl747

07-09-2003, 02:45 AM

The person I download the file from isnt making a penny off of me. and I make no profit from the person who downloads from me. And so on. etc. etc. maybe they should make all of our fm receivers coin operated and charge so much an hour for us to listen. Then the lobster stuffing fat cats that own the record labels can add an extra ten feet to their hundred foot yachts. think about that next time you rape your wallet 15 bucks for 1 or 2 quality songs. Theres a few sites you can subscribe to for so much a month and download as many as you want. Comes out to a few pennys a song if you calculate how much you download with high speed connection. Dont think anyone is getting hurt except the poor fool that walks through the door of a record store with his or hers hard earned wages. NO GUILTY FEELING HERE!!!!!

Mobas

07-09-2003, 03:29 PM

jrzofclay, you say that "Whenever you dl somthing, you're taking it off of someone, which isn't yours, so it is stealing". Let me ask you your opinion to these other questions which involves "taking something that isn't yours or doesn't belong to you." Even though we have different opinions, I'm interested in what your opinion is concerning these 3 questions. A True or False answer will be fine.

1. I buy a music CD and make a copy of it for my dad. Is my dad guilty of stealing?

2. I record a song off the radio in my car. Am I stealing?

3. I record a movie off of HBO or Showtime with my VCR. Am I stealing?

tralalala

07-09-2003, 03:33 PM

theoretically its NOT stealing cos when your downloading your suspecting your downloading non copyrighted stuff but then you "find out" its NOT.

so its NOT STEALING!!!

knightowl747

07-09-2003, 04:47 PM

The answer to all three is false. However if I try to sell any of them for profit, then the answers are true. Seems simple enough to me.

BlizZ

07-09-2003, 11:17 PM

Bottom line.
Whenever you dl somthing, you're taking it off of someone, which isn't yours, so it is stealing.
Btw, I'm also a Christian, but I duno if i'll ever be able to stop dl stuff off on kazaa

So if someone downloads a file from me, they're stealing from me?

When you dl something, your getting it from the person you downloaded it from.. yes im taking it from that person, but they don't care, they're sharing, they still have a copy of the file.

So when you say "Whenever you dl somthing, you're taking it off of someone" are you talking about the person you download the file from?

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-10-2003, 12:19 AM

IT IS NOT STEALING WILL YOU BE TOLD!!!!! AARRRRHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

like ive already said i spoke with a judge of a crown court about filesharing for 20mins he said its not theft! i think he should know what hes talking about.

when will this madness end?????? round and round we go! !!!! someone through in the towl. :huh: :unsure: :blink: :D

bandit23

07-10-2003, 01:23 AM

Hi
All sunday school students, and commercial addicts ;)
So yes we all are bandits, but we are little bandits, and that's why we are called so. If we were big ones we would call ourselves 'holders' - copyright holders or low holders or whatever we wish. Have you heard something like that: "the winner always has the right". The winner takes all - so does RIAA, so does MS. They worked for it - they were clever enough to steal so much they are not called thiefes anymore.
So maybe stop watching commercials, stop excusing yourself, stop thinking how you were told to think. A start point?
Perhaps here:
http://www.dilbert.com/
http://adbusters.org/magazine/

Styx

07-10-2003, 02:15 AM

Well, i guess that you could say that downloading music off the net is stealing in one sense- in that you are probbaly stealing an hypothetical cd, or at least part of one. And i agree- recording something off the tv is basically the same and there you are stealing a hypothetical VHS tape, or whatever.

But that won't stand up in a court of law. as far as the the law is concerned what's happening here is a breach of copyright.

However, the analogy of filesharing to recording something off the tv or even record something from one tape to another is interesting, and there are very specific laws concerning that. As far as i can gather, we fine as long as we don't profit from the copying.

So as long as you don't dl an album, burn it onto a cd and proceed to sell that cd for profit, you're not really depriving anyone of anything- ie.the artist of thier royalties.

Eccentric

07-10-2003, 03:30 AM

:ph34r: of course its not stealing. its called file SHARING. in my opinion everyone is my neighbor, neighbors share things. and who is to say who my friends are. if my friend wants a copy of tape, cd, a movie then i m going to share it with them.

ka_ploink

07-10-2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by ISthisLEGAL.com@10 July 2003 - 00:19
IT IS NOT STEALING WILL YOU BE TOLD!!!!! AARRRRHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

like ive already said i spoke with a judge of a crown court about filesharing for 20mins he said its not theft! i think he should know what hes talking about.

when will this madness end?????? round and round we go! !!!! someone through in the towl. :huh: :unsure: :blink: :D
Hey, dude... relax... have you read the earlier posts? I don't think that we're talking about legal definitions here (well, we shouldn't be). It's more a question of does it fit into Christian ethics, given that they say, "don't steal". When they say "steal", they don't mean our legal definition!

This post is obviously stupidly titled (sorry Blizz). The answer can too easily go either way depending on which definition is used.

I think Blizz should have asked "is file-sharing okay based on the rules/laws/beliefs of Christianity?". So, would anyone care to answer that question??

Darkgoku

07-10-2003, 03:51 PM

I personally dont think it's stealing i mean like everyone sayz its just one g**damn song the RIAA acts like its the end of the world and sueing r asses for some supid shit like this...thankx for listenin cuz this is bullshit :angry:

shikon

07-10-2003, 10:44 PM

i do not believe downloading music is stealing because the person from whom your downloading is freely sharing the music, there is the option to stop an upload at any time. i do not agree with the first person on the message board, saying that stealing is only taking some physical object that doesnt belong to you, for instance, in the move sneakers, at the beggining, they show two college students hacking into private bank accounts and moving the money around as they saw fit, that is stealing because they did not have consent to take, or move, that money.

Jibbler

07-10-2003, 10:57 PM

I don't think this has anything to do with stealing, but in fact it has to do with your definition of Intellectual Property, and how an idea can be licensed or distributed for profit. ;)

bestoutof2

07-11-2003, 12:10 AM

it is stealing it is just like runnung in a store and geting a cd

TheDigable

07-11-2003, 03:34 AM

Give up the philosophical argument of whether it's "stealing" or not "stealing"...

those that want their shit for free will NEVER buy if the means to avoid it are there

those of us that buy...will continue to buy CDs(although this new RIAA crap has put a wrench in things)...however, these are the people that the RIAA have probably offended most and have the possibility of losing the most revenue from.

But then again, the crappy artist formerly known as Ashanti sold over 300,000 copies in her first week. So I doubt they'll really miss us.

stealing...sharing...stealing...sharing...stealing....sharing...star trek...star wars...oral...anal...less filling...tastes great...

some arguments are best left alone...as there will never be an agreement... :blink:

oh...and it's sharing, star wars, oral, and less filling...

RealitY

07-11-2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by BlizZ@1 July 2003 - 21:53
Stealing or Not?

I download music.
Some people believe that it's stealing.
In my opinion, I don't think it is.

If it was stealing, then it would be going into a store and sneaking an object out to keep for yourself. When you go to the store to buy a music CD, that's not the same thing what you're getting when you DOWNLOAD an audio file. An audio file is NOT a music CD. When you download a song, thats not what you get when your buying a CD at the store, your getting a file on your computer.
Stealing (in my opinon) is NOT downloading some data with YOUR own personal computer, but is physically taking something from someone and keeping it.

When you're downloading music on the computer, you're not downloading a music CD, your downloading an audio file.

Anyways, that's what I think, PLUS I'm Christian and I don't want to believe that it's stealing.
Everybody let me know what your opinion is. If you think it's stealing or not. ;)
Better go to CONFESSION, you are commiting an illegal act, at least when uploading. Though I'm not sure if this is considered moraly wrong.

I lost count on how many debates I've heard and discussed on this matter, however the LAW is very clear here, especially regarding uploading, which is the same as distrubution, illegal distribution.

If you got a copy of the new T3 and then played it in a private theater you owned for all to see for free, then gave copys to all your freinds, you would have comitted an illegal act. How can anyone see this any differntly than uploading.

Though regarding downloading, or those that watched T3 and took one of those free copies home, things become rather vague. Possesion of stolen goods would not apply since they were not stolen. On what legal ground could they actually make a case. Even my ISP stated that they are absolutely paying no attention to those that are downloading copyright material. Nor do I see any attempts by the AA as of yet to go after downloaders. Maybe someone can explain why downloading is illegal. I do know that in some coutries from what I've heard it cleary sated as being legal.

We can argue many points such as those at the AA are greedy fucks and should not own rights for such ernormous periods of time, or that they are price fixing and not producing dollar for value. Though they won't be around that much longer I suspect. Not to mention they have bought most of the ridiculous laws that exsist to protect their pockets a little more.

Even the colledge kids did not take a plea of guilt, they settled for couple of cents per file shared or offered for upload, which was cheaper than litigating, besides some of them got enough contributions to pay their entire settlement. I think its pretty clear this is not a crime, it would be brought in front of a civil court. Well then, since stealing is generally a crime, and this not being such, I guess its not stealing after all. I feel better now.

Starchild

07-11-2003, 06:17 PM

Perhaps, some definitions might help.
Cut and pasted from Merriam Webster Online, m-w.com

-------Start------

Main Entry: theft
Pronunciation: 'theft
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thIefth; akin to Old English thEof thief
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen
3 : a stolen base in baseball

Main Entry: 1take (Very large amount of alternative meanings, ~28, 1 included)
Pronunciation: 'tAk
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): took /'tuk/; tak·en /'tA-k&n/; tak·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tacan, from Old Norse taka; akin to Middle Dutch taken to take
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses

16 a : REMOVE <take eggs from a nest> b (1) : to put an end to (life) (2) : to remove by death <was taken in his prime> c : SUBTRACT <take two from four> d : EXACT <the weather took its toll>

Main Entry: 1copy
Pronunciation: 'kä-pE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cop·ies
Etymology: Middle English copie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin copia, from Latin, abundance -- more at COPIOUS
Date: 14th century
1 : an imitation, transcript, or reproduction of an original work (as a letter, a painting, a table, or a dress)
2 : one of a series of especially mechanical reproductions of an original impression; also : an individual example of such a reproduction
3 archaic : something to be imitated : MODEL
4 a : matter to be set especially for printing b : something considered printable or newsworthy -- used without an article <remarks that make good copy -- Norman Cousins> c : text especially of an advertisement
synonym see REPRODUCTION

Main Entry: 1steal (again many definitions, some irrelevant ones ommited)
Pronunciation: 'stE(&)l
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): stole /'stOl/; sto·len /'stO-l&n/; steal·ing
Etymology: Middle English stelen, from Old English stelan; akin to Old High German stelan to steal
Date: before 12th century
intransitive senses
1 : to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice
1 a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car> b : to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen our liberty> c : to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a kiss> d : to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share : make oneself the focus of <steal the show>

-----------End-----------

On a side note, I don't think downloading copyrighted works that hasn't been authorised for that type of distribution as "theft", as you don't remove anything.
You make a copy. You don't take anything, you make a copy (regardless of what definition of take you use, no one includes "copy" or the making of a copy)

It may be illegal, and I don't dispute the part about copyright infringement.
However, if you buy that which you think is worth the money, and are able to buy from an autherised distributor, no one loses.

My 0.02 SEK

[EDIT -Spelling:)]

BlizZ

07-12-2003, 07:05 PM

Man, I never knew this topic I started would become so popular.

akcom

07-12-2003, 07:37 PM

It is utterly rediculous to believe for even a second that downloading music is not stealing, get over it, you're doing something illegal, stop being a moral relativist.

Hyde

07-12-2003, 11:47 PM

if they are so worried that you are going to steal it by putting it on your own cd with a burner..... then why don't they make cd burners and mp3 players illegal instead, then there really wouldn't be that big of a problem, all you would be doing is sitting on your computer listening to the music, it's not like it would be going anywhere

Stillsharin

07-13-2003, 08:31 AM

I THINK THE WORD STEALING HAS BEEN HAS BEEN CONFUSED HERE. IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT IT ALOT OF WHAT"S BEING D-Loaded, HAS BEEN PURCHASED AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER BY SOMEOME WHO HAS DECIDED TO SHARE IT WITH WHOM EVER.CAN IT BE PROVEN THAT THIS PERSON SHARING BOUGHT THE CD...NO.. BUT DO I or ANY 1 ELSE 4 THAT MATTER CARE? (I"LL let whoever answer that 1) LOOK, THIS WHOLE DEAL IS NOTHING NEW. 4 THOSE US WHO CAN REMEMBER, WHEN CASSETTS WERE POPULAR, FRIENDS WHO WANTED CERTAIN ARTISTS WOULD ASK EACH OTHER TO LET THEM BORROW IT SO THEY COULD DUB... BACK THEN WE DIDN"T D-load WE JUST USED OUR STEREOS :-) ! SO WHERE"S THE THIEF HERE???
ANYWAY I THINK THOSE WHO D-LOAD FILES SHOULD NOT BE REGUARDED AS SUCH! AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO SHARE FILES (purchased ..or obtained through some 1 sharing theirs)

ISthisLEGAL.com

07-13-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by akcom@12 July 2003 - 20:37
It is utterly rediculous to believe for even a second that downloading music is not stealing, get over it, you're doing something illegal, stop being a moral relativist.
O.k, :huh:.........But on planet earth its not stealing! read back through the posts and you will find out why! ;)

ka_ploink

07-13-2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by ISthisLEGAL.com+13 July 2003 - 11:54--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ISthisLEGAL.com @ 13 July 2003 - 11:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-akcom@12 July 2003 - 20:37
It is utterly rediculous to believe for even a second that downloading music is not stealing, get over it, you're doing something illegal, stop being a moral relativist.
O.k, :huh:.........But on planet earth its not stealing! read back through the posts and you will find out why! ;) [/b][/quote]
That's the problem... this post isn't getting anywhere because everyone is replying to Blizz's opening, rather than reading what other people have said and replying to it..... no discussion happening, no progress... I think now's a good time to give up.

ncblkgy

07-14-2003, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by ISthisLEGAL.com+1 July 2003 - 21:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ISthisLEGAL.com @ 1 July 2003 - 21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-2nd gen noob@1 July 2003 - 22:02
of course it's stealing

you're either blind or a fool (or a blind fool) not to 'see' that.
downloading a file is the same as stealing a cd from a shop

after all, the songs on the cd are files too

downloading music is stealing, and is wrong. unless it's to feed your family of course, then there's a grey area
Sorry mate, its not stealing! as your not permanently depriving anyone of anything only making a copy its not theft, alls your doing is breaking copy right laws which lets face it nearly everyone has a copy of something.[/b][/quote]
:D Hello all, Well since we are all have the right to voice our opinions, i decided well why not. I for one do think that file share is stealing in some shape or form.. But it doesnt stop me shit I guess im just a theif, But think about it this way. Lets say you were an artist very good one at that and you had a CD come out.. All your concerts sale out so you know everyone loves you.. first day your CD is out and in some cases a few days before. The whole CD is already uploaded onto a file share.. You at that time will think with out a doubt after you dont sell as many records as you expect think people are stealing from you. Thats how I look at it. If I was the one making the music then you(no one in particular) would be depriving me of my money or what ever else BUT I DONT GIVE A F*** IM GONNA DL ANYWAY just thought it would be another thing for all you people that think you arent stealing see the TRUE picture...
Much love

Los

Cueshark

07-14-2003, 11:31 AM

Hi there everybody. I'm new in this forum and I'd like to say something.

Is sharing music stealing? Yes and No, both and none.

If you listen to music that normally one would need to buy then effectively you are gaining something for free but not necessarily stealing.

Why argue about the semantics involved?

I'm a musician and if I spent hours slaving in the studio to produce an album which was then downloaded for free i'd be a bit annoyed BUT....only if it adversely effected me. I'd hope that the hard core fan will want the original for the cd and booklet anyway.

It would be WRONG to download my music but I wouldn't label it as stealing.

I have copied a VCR tape before but I didn't feel like I was commiting a crime.

AND.....

I would quite happily download MANUFACTURED POP S**T till the cows come home because...

A) Their music is exploiting people's stupidity and if people are willing to spend petrol in their cars and money in their pocket to buy them then it's their stupid fault. People should file share crap like this to eliminate them from the industry anyway.

B ) It's crap and the performers are fake, talentless and can't hold a note with a mic in front of them.

Crap music and the images that modern manufactured pop portrays is FAR FAR more damaging than downloading the songs and does far more damage to society.

But If I was a record company I'd definately argue filesharing was stealing because it takes money out of my pocket and so I would be biased. I put this crock of shit band together and so I want all the money I can get out of it before the lead singers turn 20 and become way too old! ( Plus they may start to take an interest in music which would be bad )

You get what I'm saying. You are listening to music you have downloaded but you are not stealing because it isn't a tangible physical object. To be picky you could argue that but WHY bother. If something's great like some music is then you should show your appreciation by buying it, if something's rubbish then download it ( especially if it's manufactured pap ).

PLUS...If bands will continue to release albums with 1 or 2 really great catchy songs and then 8 crappy album fillers then it's their fault that people download the best songs from the internet.

Cheers everyone!
John.