P2p

[liquidacid]

Recently i was at my mums house for dinner. Afterward, when we were all quite drunk, the conversation turned to internet piracy. We were talking about music in general when i explained that i would only buy a cd if i really liked it, preferring to download for free. My mums partner, who's very strait-laced (his dad was a policeman), said he was totally against it. He thought it was bad for the industry, unfair to those who pay for their music, and that it being illegal should mean i don't do it.

My defence was that the music industries greed is itself to blame. I remember when lp's and cassettes cost £7 - £8 for an album. As soon as cd's arrived, the price jumped to £12 - £13! What on earth justified this increase, the new technology? If so then surely this initial extra cost should have been absorbed by the industry. Even if it was passed on to the consumer, this massive hike was not justified. I also read recently that the industry wanted to claim royalties on the sale of used cd's by claiming that we don't buy cd's, rather that we rent them!! These sort of actions aren't going to endear them to anyone.

Is it fair to the music buying public? Well, i believe that very many of those who do not partake in p2p, probably would if they knew how user friendly it is, and if they weren't scared of being 'caught'. P2P, to me, isn't any different to when i was a kid, taping cassettes. When i was at school back in the late 80's, as much of my music was copied, either from friends or off the radio, as was bought.

As for it being illegal. Well, it's so easy to be a criminal these days. Perhaps the government, by choosing to criminalise recreational drug users, has made people care less about being law abiding citizens. Almost everyone i know has smoked a joint, particularly in their student days. This does not make them immoral, but it does criminalize them.

I believe myself to a moral, principled person who is kind, tolerant and patient. I don't speed or drive my car while drunk. I am a pacifist who avoids confrontation, chooses not to eat meat, and donates time and money to charity. However, in the eyes of society, am i an immoral and unprincipled criminal? Should i care? How do i justify my actions to myself?

[J'Pol]

I see no difference between downloading a movie or copying it onto a video tape from television. Does law boy do that.

Similarly with music, taping from the radio etc. All you are doing is making a permanent record of something.

I do not accept that it is criminal conduct. For personal use people are sued, not prosecuted.

That makes it a civil, not criminal matter.

PS this does not seem like lounge material, perhaps filesharing or somesuch.

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by liquidacid+21 July 2003 - 09:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (liquidacid &#064; 21 July 2003 - 09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... Afterward, when we were all quite drunk ...&nbsp;

... I don&#39;t speed or drive my car while drunk ...[/b]
So then you took a taxi home??? :huh:


<!--QuoteBegin-liquidacid@21 July 2003 - 09:19
... we don&#39;t buy cd&#39;s, rather that we rent them ... [/quote]

If we can rent DVDs at Blockbuster, why isn&#39;t there an industry that provides a similar service for the audiophile?

IMO there really should be a chain of stores that rent audio CDs. That way the RIAA bastards could get a percentage of the take - like they want - and we could have access to the music for a reasonable price&#33; :angry:

[liquidacid]

Originally posted by JPaul+ 21 July 2003 - 15:28 --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul &#064; 21 July 2003 - 15:28 )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I see no difference between downloading a movie or copying it onto a video tape from television. Does law boy do that.

Similarly with music, taping from the radio etc. All you are doing is making a permanent record of something.

I do not accept that it is criminal conduct. For personal use people are sued, not prosecuted.

That makes it a civil, not criminal matter.

PS this does not seem like lounge material, perhaps filesharing or somesuch.[/b]
Law boy?? He&#39;s a nice guy, if a little old fashioned. I&#39;d expect better of you than to call names.
Record television? Well, he does yes. Is that the same though? When downloading movies, is it still unlawful if they are being shown on television, or just for new movies?

Is it, in any circumstances, unlawful to record off the radio? What if you could collect a complete album tracklist?

If this is not lounge material, i&#39;m sorry. This isn&#39;t meant in anyway to question filesharing technology, but feelings toward it being socially acceptable, or not.


Originally posted by tite-wad@ 21 July 2003 - 15:29
So then you took a taxi home???
Erm, no. I stayed at my mum’s house. She lives in Aberdeen and i live in Glasgow?&#33;?&#33; How supercilious you are.....
<!--QuoteBegin-tite-wad@ 21 July 2003 - 15:29
IMO there really should be a chain of stores that rent audio CDs. That way the RIAA bastards could get a percentage of the take - like they want - and we could have access to the music for a reasonable price&#33;[/quote] Well, that would be great, we could copy everything in wav format. Hmm somewhat unlikely...

[Ron]

@tite-wad: we can borrow CDs at the library here. Can&#39;t you?

Anyway, in Belgium, the price of blank CDs went up a while ago. They said it was to pay the artists of illegally copied material. Still, the copying is still illegal.
How much sense does that make?

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by liquidacid+21 July 2003 - 09:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (liquidacid &#064; 21 July 2003 - 09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How supercilious you are.....[/b]

Superscilious? ... me? :blink:

Hardly&#33; ... more like advertent. ;)


<!--QuoteBegin-liquidacid@21 July 2003 - 09:56
Well, that would be great, we could copy everything in wav format. Hmm somewhat unlikely... [/quote]

Well, what I was intending was that at least the RIAA could take a percentage each time it was rented.

Of course we&#39;d all be ripping them&#33; :P

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by liquidacid+21 July 2003 - 15:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (liquidacid @ 21 July 2003 - 15:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@ 21 July 2003 - 15:28
I see no difference between downloading a movie or copying it onto a video tape from television. Does law boy do that.

Similarly with music, taping from the radio etc. All you are doing is making a permanent record of something.

I do not accept that it is criminal conduct. For personal use people are sued, not prosecuted.

That makes it a civil, not criminal matter.

PS this does not seem like lounge material, perhaps filesharing or somesuch.
Law boy?? He&#39;s a nice guy, if a little old fashioned. I&#39;d expect better of you than to call names.
Record television? Well, he does yes. Is that the same though? When downloading movies, is it still unlawful if they are being shown on television, or just for new movies?

Is it, in any circumstances, unlawful to record off the radio? What if you could collect a complete album tracklist?

If this is not lounge material, i&#39;m sorry. This isn&#39;t meant in anyway to question filesharing technology, but feelings toward it being socially acceptable, or not.

[/b][/quote]
I thought I was expressing 100 % support for your position.

The reason I said it was not lounge material was that all too often good discussions go adrift. It is more likely to stay on track elsewhere and be more keenly moderated.

Hey Ho you try to agree with some people.

Second time today - "live and learn".

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by JPaul@21 July 2003 - 10:12
Hey Ho you try to agree with some people.

Calling liquid a Ho was kinda harsh&#33; http://members.roadfly.com/tite-wad/laugh.gif

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by tite-wad+21 July 2003 - 16:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tite-wad @ 21 July 2003 - 16:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@21 July 2003 - 10:12
Hey Ho you try to agree with some people.

Calling liquid a Ho was kinda harsh&#33; http://members.roadfly.com/tite-wad/laugh.gif [/b][/quote]
Don´t be obtuse, it does you no credit.

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by Ron@21 July 2003 - 10:06
@tite-wad: we can borrow CDs at the library here. Can&#39;t you?
No, I can&#39;t borrow CDs from your library&#33; :rolleyes:

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by JPaul@21 July 2003 - 10:18
Don´t be obtuse, it does you no credit.
Sorry, that&#39;s the real me... I&#39;d have thought it was obvious by now&#33; :P



Edit: board spat on me

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by JPaul@21 July 2003 - 10:18
Don´t be obtuse, it does you no credit.
Sorry, that&#39;s the real me... I&#39;d have thought it was obvious by now&#33; :P


** If I weren&#39;t convinced before, I am now - this board HATES ME&#33;&#33;&#33; **

[J'Pol]

Repeating yourself does not constitute corroboration

[liquidacid]

JPaul, i&#39;m not questioning what you said (apart from the namecalling), although i&#39;m not sure you understand my position.

I&#39;m not saying that i believe copying music should be made legal (or lawful?), i really don&#39;t care so much about the legalities involved. What i do care more about is whether my actions are socially acceptable. Most of my friends either fileshare or benefit from others doing so, but what do the public on large think.

On whether this is lounge material or not, i now see your point and agree with you.

[J'Pol]

I am surprised at you taking offence at the name calling, the particular form is something I use often. In fact I believe I have used law boy before. It is intended as friendly joshing and not as offensive.

However offense is in the ear of the beholder and I apologise. Please believe that it really was unintentional tho.

The point I make is that whatever the public may think, the vast majority do it. They make copies of copyright material all the time. They tape films and TV programs. They photocopy from books and newspapers. They download pictures and words from the internet.

No-one thinks twice about this, so if they decry you and I they decry themselves.

I bet you the RIAA make photocopies of the legislation they use, as do their lawyers, Police Officers, FBI etc. They are breaching copyright. At least they are where I come from. It is, in essence, no different.

[Ron]

I guess it all depends on what social circles you frequent.
Anyone from the music/movie/software industry will be strongly opposed.
Most other people will either don&#39;t give a ****, or have a positive attitude towards it.

[Ron]

Originally posted by JPaul@21 July 2003 - 17:38
I bet you the RIAA make photocopies of the legislation they use, as do their lawyers, Police Officers, FBI etc. They are breaching copyright. At least they are where I come from. It is, in essence, no different.
Law texts are copyright material? :blink:

[J'Pol]

In the UK yes.

The copyright to Acts of Parliament (legislation) is held by Her Majesty&#39;s Stationery Office.

At least that is my understanding.

[Ron]

Might just be a local thing then.
In Belgium for example, every pub/bar/restaurant is obliged to hang up one (in my case two) law texts.
One regarding the penalties for alcohol abuse.
The other regarding minors in pubs.

[thewizeard]

liquidacid:


As in Belgium, in the Netherlands we can hire cd&#39;s from the library for a small fee. There is nothing to stop one from ripping to mp3 format? There is some interesting information in one of the other forums about this subject. I have ripped all my personal cd&#39;s and I share them.

When you post in the lounge, a topic that really belong elsewhere, you must expect a little humour.

@Edit: thank you Linx (VAN=FROM)....Dutch lesson&#33;

[lynx]

Originally posted by nigel123@21 July 2003 - 18:10
liquidacid:


As in Belgium, in the Netherlands we can hire cd&#39;s from the library for a small fee. There is nothing to stop one van ripping to mp3 format? There is some interesting information in one of the other forums about this subject. I have ripped all my personal cd&#39;s and I share them.

When you post in the lounge, a topic that really belong elsewhere, you must expect a little humour.
Van ripping?

Do you need a cd player in your van to do this ?
I would have thought it would be a bit slow, and rather echoy.

[tite-wad]

:P

Originally posted by JPaul@21 July 2003 - 10:18
Don´t be obtuse, it does you no credit.

[Ron]

Originally posted by lynx@21 July 2003 - 19:15

Van ripping?

Do you need a cd player in your van to do this ?
I would have thought it would be a bit slow, and rather echoy.
LOL
"Van" is Dutch for "from".
You Anglo-Saxon natives take it for granted that everyone speaks English, that you even assume we even think in English. :D

Come to think of it.....I DO&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;
I even send Bender and Jetje English PM&#39;s, and they&#39;re Dutch.
Just be happy there aren&#39;t too many French on this board.
Last I heard, they changed the word "e-mail" into "courriel". (short for courrier electronique, or sth)

[lynx]

Damn. I always assumed Van der Valk was pushing your van (literally walking the van), presumably after it had broken down. :P

[tite-wad]

Originally posted by lynx@21 July 2003 - 13:30
I always assumed
I believe I have found the source of your troubles. :rolleyes:

[thewizeard]

Anyway i&#39;ve changed the from for a car.

[lynx]

:lol:

[J'Pol]

Do sad French people tour Holland in carafroms eating vanage.

At least they don&#39;t slow down on the hills I suppose.

[lynx]

DNSMSL :lol:

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by lynx@21 July 2003 - 21:26
DNSMSL :lol:
No too obscure for me - could you possibly translate.

[lynx]

Originally posted by JPaul+21 July 2003 - 21:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JPaul @ 21 July 2003 - 21:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-lynx@21 July 2003 - 21:26
DNSMSL&nbsp; :lol:
No too obscure for me - could you possibly translate. [/b][/quote]
Damn Near S*** My Self Laughing

[lynx]

Bumpety Bump

[J'Pol]

LOL