The Oldest Religion In The World.

[denis123]

This seemed an interesting topic. Any one any ideas? I thought that it was an Indian religion.

Another question, are the Vedas older than the old testament?

[lynx]

I think you may have started a hot one here.

Who's calendar are you going to use?

Carbon dating has been brought into question because of the possibility that some so-called 'known' events may not have taken place when they were first thought to have done, but these were the origins for the basis of carbon dating.
Note: this is not related to the half-life of carbon isotopes, which is physical fact, but to the amounts of those isotopes in samples at times in the past, which is subject to atmospheric conditions, plant growth rates etc.

For instance, it is now thought that certain egyptian event streams may actually taken place simultaneously (ie they overlap), whereas it was previously thought that there was a gap of several hundred years.

Hope you are going to referee this.

[hypoluxa3k]

i always thought Islam was the oldest <_<
wasn&#39;t Hinduism another form of Paganism that spread from Babylon?


found this:

People have a misconception that islam is 1400 Years old and that Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) is the founder of this religion. Islam existed since time immemorial, ever since man first set foot on this earth. Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was the final messenger of Allah.

and this:

A Religion Cannot Be Claimed To Be Most Pure And Authentic, Only On The Criterion That It Is The Oldest. It Is Similar To A Person Saying That The Water He Has Kept In An Open Glass, In His House, Outside The Refrigerator, For Three Months Is Purer Than The Water Which Has Just Been Collected In A Clean Glass, Immediately After It Has Been Purified.

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by lynx@24 July 2003 - 10:54
I think you may have started a hot one here.

Who&#39;s calendar are you going to use?




Talking of calendars an interesting calendar is the Mayan calendar. But I am not sure that use of a calendar will give proof of the oldest religion.
Over the Vedas; they are written in the very ancient language Sanscrit.( I dont know if I have spelt it correctly). I thought that Sanscrit is the oldest written language. More important is if a religion can bring, tolerance, peace and harmony to this world. Peace alone is just not good enough; although I would settle for "peace" in the beginning.....

[ilw]

Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots of the popular religions and is considered by many to be the oldest (still living) religion.



Most reference books list Hinduism as the oldest world religion. This is probably because Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures.

[echidna]

in northern australia there are paintings [with spiritual significance] that are at least 24,000 years old, likely to be about 60,000 years old and may be as ancient as 120,000 years old

that&#39;s a long time ago
and there are still law keepers alive who keep the knowledge relating to them

PS can people reference sources for their quotes when possible, it makes the who discussion thing a much richer experience for everyone
and it makes you look like you&#39;ve researched :lol:

[Neil__]

echidna

You forgot to post the source of your data.
Or didn&#39;t you research? :)

Neil

[Illuminati]

AFAI can tell, this cannot be answered in current times.

There is likely that at least one religion would have since ceased to exist; it&#39;s happened to some languages before.

However, I think ancient texts spoke of a world library of knowledge in Egypt, probably Alexandria - But I think the whole place burned down for some reason :unsure: Probably myth though.

Either way - AFAIK this cannot be answered in that way. Ones that still exist, I think that the egyptians have the eldest known roots and worshipped gods (e.g. Osiris, Anubis). I think that would be the oldest religion, even though it&#39;s not as much in use now outside Egypt :)

[lynx]

Originally posted by Illuminati@24 July 2003 - 14:16
Ones that still exist, I think that the egyptians have the eldest known roots and worshipped gods (e.g. Osiris, Anubis). I think that would be the oldest religion, even though it&#39;s not as much in use now outside Egypt :)
I don&#39;t think it is used much inside Egypt either.

[Rat Faced]

The oldest religion, although no one knows what it is, would have to be a nature based religion.

Wicca is probably the "oldest" in UK, followed by Druidism...these would have evolved from similar Pagan religions on Mainland Europe, prior to the Viking, Roman and Greek "gods" taking over there.

I would have thought that these would have evolved from still earlier Pagan religions in Africa/Middle East and so on back...


Wicca never died in UK, and bears no relationship to the "wicca" that is now flourishing in the USA....

So, i&#39;d say Wicca (Old Wicca, not the new Fad) is probably the oldest Religion in Europe, but not the world...(unless there are Pagan religions related and still being practised in mainland Europe?)

[echidna]

here are some references
[mainly for Neil__ (when i wrote that i&#39;d like to see more references, i was meaning that quotes should be referenced, rather than every statement anyone makes. if you use other peoples words you should attribute them i think) i hope this helps Neil__]
anyway here are some quotes on the topic i broached;

Originally posted by www.curtin.edu.au/learn/unit/art/v36/v36_topic4.html+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (www.curtin.edu.au/learn/unit/art/v36/v36_topic4.html)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aboriginal art is the world&#39;s oldest continuous living art tradition and it is the rock art of Central Australia which is the oldest, and predates European presence by more than 40,000 years. Many of the formal aspects of Aboriginal culture were associated with ceremonies and rituals rather than monuments and building as in other cultures. Rock art is the one tangible aspect of Aboriginal culture which has endured. ‘In innumerable galleries across the continent, pictorial records survive, often in spectacular graphic form. Few Australians are aware that their homeland contains examples of rock art which span the time periods five times greater than that covered by Egypt&#39;s pyramids.’ (Walsh 1988: 13)
[/b]

Originally posted by www.upfromaustralia.com/50yearofcavp.html+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (www.upfromaustralia.com/50yearofcavp.html)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aborigines would probably not get IS9002 accreditation in documentation, as we had never put anything down in writing. Simple reason was that we never invented writing for our language(s), but we loved to DRAW to preserve our thoughts and culture. Our 50,000 year old rock art painting, along with oration of legends by tribal leaders passed though generation(s), are responsible in keeping knowledge and traditions alive

Some really sacred Rock Art are not for viewing Some rock paintings are of the really special spiritual significance, bearing the strongest psychological and ritual values. Some rock paintings are really,really sacred, and unfortunately not open to tourist eyes…and even to most aborigines except for certain “initiated” elders who have proven their worth as custodians. Sorry mate, there are certain art galleries that are not for entrance and sale at any price…

Aboriginal rock art is recognised as the world&#39;s oldest and longest continuous living tradition. The ancient art is found all across Australia in the form of paintings or engravings on rock.

How old is Aboriginal Rock Art? Archaelogists continue to argue over their age, but some of the earliest paintings, in red ochre in northern sandstone shelters, have been dated at 50,000 years. In 1996 in the Kimberley region of Western Australia, an engraving site was dated at 110,000 years old, sending archaelogists back to the drawing board and rewriting the history of modern human movement.[/b]

Originally posted by www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/01/1056825394030.html
NSW Premier Bob Carr said. . .
"This reminds us 4000 years ago, when you had civilisation flourishing in Mesopotamia, when you had the power of Egypt, before China was united, while Stonehenge was being built, we had Aboriginal people in these lands, on the outskirts of the Sydney basin," he said.
. . .
"If someone in Italy said they had just found a new Etruscan tomb, that would date back to 700BC. This find is 2000BC. If someone excavating in Athens discovered the ancient foundations of a classical building, this is 1500 years before that.

"It is eerie, exciting, this contact with a very old Australia, with the Aboriginal people who have been expressing their spiritual views in this remote rock shelter deep in the wilderness for so long,"

<!--QuoteBegin-cedir.uow.edu.au/programs/jinmium/@
Archaeological research by a joint University of Wollongong and Australian Museum team suggests that Australia may have been first occupied by people before 100,000 years ago. The research, which has received extensive media coverage in the last few months, also provides a date of around 60,000 years ago for a form of rock art known as cupule engraving. This has long been recognised to be the oldest surviving form of rock art in Australia, but has not previously been found in a datable context. [/quote]
<!--QuoteBegin-www.aboriginalartonline.com/art/rockage.html
There is, however, indirect evidence going back a lot further, leading some archaeologists to argue that the rock art galleries in northern Australia are probably the oldest in the world. This is, of course, a contentious area, with recent claims for dates in southern France and northern Italy going back as far as 35 000 years.

Archaeologist Sue O&#39;Connor at the Australian National University has found a buried fragment of rock painting preserved in the limestone rock-shelter of Carpenter&#39;s Gap in the Kimberley (near Windjana Gorge National Park) in a layer dated to 40 000 years old
[/quote]
that is about as much research as i can be bothered with at the moment [fascinating though it is]

this line of thought also supports what Rat Faced wrote about &#39;nature religions&#39; too

@illuminati :: the library at alexandria was burned by christians as far as i know because it held so much pagan knowledge, what a bunch of xenophobic c#nts&#33; i think the monotheists have been a terrible scourge on the earth

[Neil__]

Thanks echidna.

Interesting.

Neil

[lynx]

Originally posted by echidna@24 July 2003 - 16:26
@illuminati :: the library at alexandria was burned by christians as far as i know because it held so much pagan knowledge, what a bunch of xenophobic c#nts&#33; i think the monotheists have been a terrible scourge on the earth
Others suggest that the library was stored in grain depositaries and was burnt when Julius Caesar destroyed the fleet of Cleopatra&#39;s brother. It seems that multi-theists have also had their &#39;moments&#39;.
You can&#39;t blame atheists like that (and before anyone starts, Hitler, Stalin etc may have been atheists, but they didn&#39;t do their misdeeds in the name of atheism).

[MagicNakor]

I would hazard a guess that whichever belief system the people followed with the Venus of Willendorf figurine (24,000-22,000 BC) is likely the oldest that we know about.

The Library of Alexandria (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World) was destroyed by fire. http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm examines a few of those theories.

:ninja:

[kAb]

Originally posted by hypoluxa3k@24 July 2003 - 03:08
i always thought Islam was the oldest <_<

why am i not suprised :rolleyes:

i&#39;m sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.

[slammy_dunken]

Originally posted by kAb@24 July 2003 - 20:11
i&#39;m sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.
Don&#39;t ALL religions believe in some higher being? ;)

[kAb]

Originally posted by slammy_dunken+24 July 2003 - 18:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slammy_dunken @ 24 July 2003 - 18:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kAb@24 July 2003 - 20:11
i&#39;m sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.
Don&#39;t ALL religions believe in some higher being? ;) [/b][/quote]
yeah.... i&#39;m suggesting that it started out very simply...

[MagicNakor]

Most early religions are polytheistic, so it&#39;d be higher beings. ;)

:ninja:

[echidna]

the deities [for want of a better word] in many of the oldest religions are more like supernatural ancestors of the people whose religion it is and aspects of the environments in which they live
rather than higher beings which are apart and different to the people

there is a definite sense of connection and lineage between the venerated &#39;beings&#39; and the people venerating
as opposed to the distinct separateness of more familiar ideas of &#39;god&#39; like yahweh/allah where god is still seen as origin but is separate and different to the people

[a lot of discussion about very old religions talk in terms like animism which although giving a valuable impression of the religions fails to encompass the complexities and nuance of these super old beliefs]

[I.am]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am sure the intention of the topic was just to gain some knowledge. But normally, people inclined to their &#39;religions&#39; tend to make knowingly or unknowingly some biased judgements. It is for our own self to realize when we make it.
Secondly, as someone did mention it before a religion being old doesnt prove anything as far as the purity or the religion or the truth of the religion is concerned. Originally all of them had the kindest intention and changed later to rules to be followed by many. And unfortunately, people point fingers at each other saying &#39;mine is the true one&#39; etc.

Best to my knowledge the confirmed oldest religion is Hinduism(is not polytheistic which some might think) and yes Vedas are much older than old testaments as already pointed out.

Discussions like these can never reach a proper result unless all are unbiased. And somehow once in a while when we are struck by topics like these we do tend to get biased.

If you really want to know which is the oldest one try a search on google and check the sources to clarify. Use your own judgement and sense to understand.

Just some of my thoughts...

[MagicNakor]

The oldest religion still in wide-spread practice to date may be, but it isn&#39;t the "oldest religion ever," which seems to be what spawned this thread.

On a side note, there was just a pretty graphic picture of Qusai on the television.

:ninja:

[I.am]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 00:07
The oldest religion still in wide-spread practice to date may be, but it isn&#39;t the "oldest religion ever,"
:ninja:
Glad to see ya Magic Naker.
Yup not the oldest ever. But since we cannot go back in time to clarify which one was really the oldest so there is no point contemplating on that isnt it?

[MagicNakor]

Naker... well, that brings to mind some interesting images. ;)

No, certainly not, it&#39;s rather unlikely that the system I was speaking about even has an actual label, as such. I just remember the conversation before which spawned this thread: Tralalalala saying that Judaism was the oldest religion ever, and my rather esoteric comment to that. In my defense, I was physically ill. ;)

It would be fun to speculate, though. I believe I&#39;ve got some necromancy tools around here somewhere.

:ninja:

[tralalala]

Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).

tralalala

[human_pet]

Originally posted by tralalala@25 July 2003 - 08:27
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).

tralalala
according to Islam,Judaism is Islam,any religion that was brought by a prophet of God/Allah is Islam(submission to God),in this case,Mose/Musa,that is why Islam is the oldest religion,it is the natural religion,well this is if you want to believe it,just giving my own opinion,and by the way,according to Islam again,initially there was only one religion to start with,but people have become misguided and corrupted their own religion,making it a man-made religion,God have sent prophets to each nation,and the last one is/was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) the sealer of all prophets,he was sent to the whole mankind and Jins

Peace be upon you/Assalamualaikum

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by tralalala@25 July 2003 - 08:27
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).

tralalala
No.

It MAY be the oldest MAJOR religion still practised, there are many others older, Wicca and Druidism among them.

And as i said earlier, even they dont claim to be the oldest.

You&#39;ve had examples of religions given that are 10 X as old as Judaism claims the world has existed, so it cant be the oldest.

[Neil__]

Christians would say their religion is the oldest.
Their God created the heavens and the earth so it must be the oldest.
The same goes for any other religion that claims a creator.

Neil

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by Neil__@25 July 2003 - 13:39
Christians would say their religion is the oldest.
Their God created the heavens and the earth so it must be the oldest.
The same goes for any other religion that claims a creator.

Neil
You forget.

Christianity is a split from Juadism...so until 2003 (or thereabouts) years ago, they WERE the same religion.

I always wondered myself however, how the (and I dont mean to upset anyone here..) Spiteful, Vengeful, Bastard portrayed in the 1st book (Old Testament) as God could possibly have been same being as the Loveable, fuddiduddy, Grandad portrayed in the Sequel (New Testament).

[Neil__]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@25 July 2003 - 15:19

You forget.

Christianity is a split from Juadism...so until 2003 (or thereabouts) years ago, they WERE the same religion.





I didn&#39;t forget
I think the point stands alone.


I always wondered myself however, how the (and I dont mean to upset anyone here..) Spiteful, Vengeful, Bastard portrayed in the 1st book (Old Testament) as God could possibly have been same being as the Loveable, fuddiduddy, Grandad portrayed in the Sequel (New Testament).

Tryibg to square that circle will "pickle your noodle" so I suggest leaving that one to the theologists.

Neil

[MagicNakor]

They say having children changes a person. ;)

Wicca isn&#39;t an old religion. It&#39;s based on various pagan rites, but it&#39;s a thoroughly modern horse.

:ninja:

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 14:55
They say having children changes a person. ;)

Wicca isn&#39;t an old religion. It&#39;s based on various pagan rites, but it&#39;s a thoroughly modern horse.

:ninja:
I&#39;d already seperated out the current "Fad" to be a pagan :P


Wicca was one practised the UK before Christianity arrived and never completely died out.

Wicca is only one of the literally hundreds of Pagan religions....however, its also the one that the "modern" pagans chose to call themselves :(

[hobbes]

The oldest religion is "FEAR", the knowledge that we are physically finite. No other animal bears this burden.

We have since come up with verbal and written talismans to conquer "fear". An ultimate protector has been given the label "God". "God", meaning different things to different people, but universally a buffer from "fear".... if, and only if, you follow the rules.

Without "FEAR", "God" is pointless.

[ToraBoraDweller]

I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan &#33;? :unsure:

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan &#33;? :unsure:
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i painted

Earth Goddess = Mother Nature

etc etc etc

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+25 July 2003 - 18:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 25 July 2003 - 18:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan &#33;? :unsure:
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i painted

Earth Goddess = Mother Nature

etc etc etc [/b][/quote]
And why did they need fertility goddesses? FEAR of extinction.

Why did they worship and sacrifice to the Gods of rain, wind, and bountiful harvest. Fear of destruction and starvation.

Again, without FEAR, these primitive attempts to lend stability to an unpredictable world would be meaningless.

[ToraBoraDweller]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+25 July 2003 - 18:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 25 July 2003 - 18:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan &#33;? :unsure:
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i painted

Earth Goddess = Mother Nature

etc etc etc [/b][/quote]
True ,but I try to be a bit more specific .
There are more anthropological models : 1st man was a hunter or
1st man was a nomadic gatherer ,or combination of both .
Fact is there are not enough traces (anyways not enough to point out a clear origin)
One could also say that 1st ppl worshipped fire (There was a movie made around that idea :Quest for Fire(excellent dialogue) ;) ).

[I.am]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 01:26
Naker... well, that brings to mind some interesting images. ;)

No, certainly not, it&#39;s rather unlikely that the system I was speaking about even has an actual label, as such. I just remember the conversation before which spawned this thread: Tralalalala saying that Judaism was the oldest religion ever, and my rather esoteric comment to that. In my defense, I was physically ill. ;)

It would be fun to speculate, though. I believe I&#39;ve got some necromancy tools around here somewhere.

:ninja:
@MagicNaker
Oops&#33; Sorry missed the spelling in quick typing&#33;

[Spindulik]

Atheism. It must be. Before people existed, there was no religion. No belief.

[thewizeard]

After reading all your posts, I have come to the conclusion, that the oldest religion in the world, is IGNORANCE.

[chalkmongoose]

Quite literally, the oldest religion in the world is the one where cavemen developed cognizant thought process, and needed explanations for things they couldn&#39;t explain on their own.

[I.am]

Originally posted by nigel123@26 July 2003 - 00:38
After reading all your posts, I have come to the conclusion, that the oldest religion in the world, is IGNORANCE.
And unfortunately, are you still Practicing it. If you have to make a contribution convey it through some logic and right words.

[echidna]

Originally posted by tralalala@25 July 2003 - 18:27
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).

tralalala
http://www.thirdage.com/news/features/images/news.yawn.jpg repetition makes me sleepy

[thewizeard]

Iam, therefore I am, I think.....





Originally posted by I.am+26 July 2003 - 08:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (I.am &#064; 26 July 2003 - 08:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-nigel123@26 July 2003 - 00:38
After reading all your posts, I have come to the conclusion, that the oldest religion in the world, is IGNORANCE.
And unfortunately, are you still Practicing it. If you have to make a contribution convey it through some logic and right words.[/b][/quote]
Gladly, though it will take a little time, which at this moment, I don&#39;t have much of. There are 12 links, the first being ïgnorance. When we talk about ignorance, there is a puzzle to be solved; the puzzle of creation."Many people have asked the question, "how could it have ever begun?" Here over there is a lot to be said. It&#39;s the illusion of ego which is the beginning, the very source of the 12 links of interdependence, The first of these links is ignorance; ignorance in the sense of not seeing, not knowing, the "as-it-isness." That is the beginning of everything. That which is not "I" is held as "I." Since there is no "I" then there is no "mine," yet we believe in "I" and "mine",

The second link will have to wait as the kids are demanding attention&#33;

I think, therefore I am, I think

[sharedholder]

HINDUISM, THE WORLD&#39;S OLDEST RELIGION (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9410/hindu1.html)

[junkyardking]

Religion can only be as old, as how long humans have been on earth, because humans created religion, if you investigate any culture that is living, dead or extinct on earth you&#39;ll find they have/had some sort of religion they invented to explain what they could not.

Gods/God do not exist they are dreamed up by Humans to control, comfort and explain there existence to themselves. :D

[MagicNakor]

Interesting, then, how (almost) every religion, both current and non, tend to have the same parables, the same gods, the same basis, and in some instances, the same pictoral representations, if you strip them down. There&#39;s some very interesting parallels between what we know of the Aztecs and Mayans and what we know of the Egyptians.

:ninja:

[Rat Faced]

Gods/God do not exist they are dreamed up by Humans to control, comfort and explain there existence to themselves.&nbsp;



Prove it. :P

[ilw]

"I don&#39;t have the evidence to prove that God doesn&#39;t exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn&#39;t that I don&#39;t want to waste my time."
Isaac Asimov

[thewizeard]

Ignorance continued: Everything stems from that point-ignorance. When did it happen?-always, each and every second.(Yes it&#39;s that bad Iam) Whatever is a pleasant illusion for the &#39;I,&#39; we seek. Whatever is an unpleasant illusion, we try to escape or avoid. In this way all kinds of subsequent situations, the extension of our present existense, are created for us to experience later as results. This is the reason why I say ignorance was the first religion. Ignorance is a vacuum waiting to be filled. It was filled with fear as Hobbes pointed out. Then the necessity arose to combat fear. Then God was created.

I shall continue later..................................

[lynx]

Originally posted by nigel123@26 July 2003 - 13:37
Ingnorance continued: Everything stems from that point-ignorance. When did it happen?-always, each and every second.(Yes it&#39;s that bad Iam) Whatever is a pleasant illusion for the &#39;I,&#39; we seek. Whatever is an unpleasant illusion, we try to escape or avoid. In this way all kinds of subsequent situations, the extension of our present existense, are created for us to experience later as results. This is the reason why I say ignorance was the first religion. Ingnorance is a vacuum waiting to be filled. It was filled with fear as Hobbes pointed out. Then the necessity arose to combat fear. Then God was created.

I shall continue later..................................
So we use delusions to fill our illusions of a vacuum of ignorance ?

[thewizeard]

@Lynx: you will have have to wait for the twelfth link, then all will become &#39;clear&#39;&#33;&#33;

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@26 July 2003 - 11:33

Gods/God do not exist they are dreamed up by Humans to control, comfort and explain there existence to themselves.



Prove it. :P
The burden of proof is in your court.

The null hypothesis is that "God does not exist", you must prove he does.


I believe that we are all controlled by invisible unicorns from alpha-centari, Jesus was a unicorn surrounded by a force-field to make him appear human.

Is it fair for me to make you prove me wrong? Or is it more equitable that I come forth with some sort of evidence to prove my claim?

The Bible certainly is not proof, just a compilation of stories and personal observations.



To Nigel:

I agree with you that ignorance gave birth to fear, but I think "FEAR" is still the first religion.

[I.am]

@nigel, you have some interesting thoughts.
To some extent I agree. I see what you are saying...

But that brings us back to the main philosophical question, "What is religion." Is atheism a religion as one pointed out? Is ignorance a religion ?

I contribute what I read somewhere. Hinduism was never a religion when it started, contrary to what many believe. It started as a way of life, practiced by many. Some sort of rules to govern the society and to have a better cultural and social community. Later it was accepted as a religion by many ignorant and then the fear factor was spread by the priests or "Pandits." It never started based on fear.

Nevertheless, I dont want to jump to a new topic "what is religion." Instead continue what you were explaining. It sure is interesting to hear someone else&#39;s thoughts.

http://www.allamericanguys.com/infopopstuff/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by hobbes+26 July 2003 - 17:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 26 July 2003 - 17:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@26 July 2003 - 11:33

Gods/God do not exist they are dreamed up by Humans to control, comfort and explain there existence to themselves.



Prove it. :P
The burden of proof is in your court.

The null hypothesis is that "God does not exist", you must prove he does.


I believe that we are all controlled by invisible unicorns from alpha-centari, Jesus was a unicorn surrounded by a force-field to make him appear human.

Is it fair for me to make you prove me wrong? Or is it more equitable that I come forth with some sort of evidence to prove my claim?

The Bible certainly is not proof, just a compilation of stories and personal observations.



To Nigel:

I agree with you that ignorance gave birth to fear, but I think "FEAR" is still the first religion. [/b][/quote]
Not at all.

A "Fact" was stated.....where is the evidence?


I havent declared the Bible fiction, despite my not being a Christian.... I certainly cant prove such a thing, so i dont state it as fact.


As this was a Statement of Fact, i want his evidence.. ;)

[junkyardking]

God/Gods do not exist and this easily proven because the fact is that all belief around such ideas is created and reinforced by humans of which they have no proof or fact and to back this up most if not all religions are merely based on some writing from scrolls to books which are claimed to have been written from the instruction of god/gods, but if you examine the writing it&#39;s clear they are only written by humans were they have written there own ideals, dreams and there take of certain events, also the writings have traits that are clearly human like predajuce and contradiction of which there god/gods are supposedly free from.

Of course if you ever challenge a believer there always resort to faith, but retreating into faith is a sign of fear that there comfort blanket is being ripped beneath them.

If you want physical proof that god does not exist I can not provide it, why?
Because I can’t have physical proof of something that has never existed.
:D

[tralalala]

guys, guys, the 3 major religions came in the following order : Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jewish calendar shows we are now in the 5700 or so year, according to the christian calendar we are in the 2003 year. and the Islamic religin started around 500 BC.
these are FACTS and theres nothing you can do about it if you dont wanna admit it.

tralalala

and one more thing: people believe in gods because they wanted someone to believe in that created them. why? cos we are (or we think we are) the only living beings in the universe and humans wanted a reason. so they practiced religion.

[MagicNakor]

You&#39;re conveniently forgetting Hinduism, Shinto, argueably Buddhism, and Sikhism. Hopefully you aren&#39;t saying that there are only three major religions in the world.

:ninja:

[tralalala]

those other four are also kida "Major" but not as major as the 3 i mentioned before (correct me if i am wrong).
plus, those you just mentioned are much "younger" than the 3 major ones.

tralalala

[thewizeard]

You are wrong. You are hereby corrected and it doesn&#39;t matter anyway. If that&#39;s your belief then you have the right to believe it.

[MagicNakor]

You&#39;ve been corrected a number of times before, tralalala. You&#39;re just obstinate.

:ninja:

[tralalala]

look, thats what ive been touht in school and by my parents.

tralalala

[MagicNakor]

Of course. And no one&#39;s disputing that, it&#39;s how most people start. However, teachers and parents aren&#39;t omniscient, and can only relay however much knowledge they have gained throughout their lifetime, and it&#39;s not always correct. Teachers will collaborate with other colleagues that are more advanced in a field so they can pass on more recent findings to their students. Scientists do the same. There&#39;s a wealth of information available and, should one be interested in doing so, learning can indeed be a lifelong endeavor. Unfortunately, too many people now don&#39;t even bother to learn whilst in school, and really don&#39;t care to try on their own accord.

:ninja:

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Spindulik@26 July 2003 - 06:26
Atheism. It must be. Before people existed, there was no religion. No belief.
No atheists.

So no atheism.

Your arguement sir is circular.

[Rat Faced]

I agree JPaul.

Didnt they do a load of psychological research that concluded it was psychologically impossible to be an atheist?


Even the most adament are merely Agnostics in denial.. ;)

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by tralalala@27 July 2003 - 09:28
guys, guys, the 3 major religions came in the following order : Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jewish calendar shows we are now in the 5700 or so year, according to the christian calendar we are in the 2003 year. and the Islamic religin started around 500 BC.
these are FACTS and theres nothing you can do about it if you dont wanna admit it.

tralalala

and one more thing: people believe in gods because they wanted someone to believe in that created them. why? cos we are (or we think we are) the only living beings in the universe and humans wanted a reason. so they practiced religion.

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents

Last modified 6 September 2002.

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 14 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha&#39;i: 6 million

Jainism: 4 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 3 million

Tenrikyo: 2.4 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 700 thousand

Scientology: 600 thousand

Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

__________________________________________________________________


I don&#39;t know why I bother to show you this Tralalala.

It&#39;s probably not courant but it will give you an idea.

You could have looked it up yourself.

[Rat Faced]

Wheres the link Nigel?

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@27 July 2003 - 17:06
Wheres the link Nigel?
The only link here is the use of the word, &#39;major&#39; by Tralalala.

[ToraBoraDweller]

???Scientology??? :D

A summing-up is no good;haven&#39;t you hears the saying :
There are lies,there are big lies and there are statistics. :unsure:

[echidna]

Originally posted by nigel123+28 July 2003 - 01:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 28 July 2003 - 01:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@27 July 2003 - 17:06
Wheres the link Nigel?
The only link here is the use of the word, &#39;major&#39; by Tralalala. [/b][/quote]
can you reference those stats you quoted
[it might give tralalala a hint] & [i think some of us would like to know out of curiosity]

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by echidna+27 July 2003 - 19:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna &#064; 27 July 2003 - 19:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by nigel123@28 July 2003 - 01:23
<!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@27 July 2003 - 17:06
Wheres the link Nigel?
The only link here is the use of the word, &#39;major&#39; by Tralalala.
can you reference those stats you quoted
[it might give tralalala a hint] & [i think some of us would like to know out of curiosity][/b][/quote]
I should not really have replied to his/her post.

I was inquisitive how he/she would get around this&#33;

So don&#39;t go shooting me down in flames&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

[echidna]

Originally posted by nigel123+28 July 2003 - 04:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nigel123 @ 28 July 2003 - 04:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by echidna@27 July 2003 - 19:50

Originally posted by nigel123@28 July 2003 - 01:23
<!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@27 July 2003 - 17:06
Wheres the link Nigel?
The only link here is the use of the word, &#39;major&#39; by Tralalala.
can you reference those stats you quoted
[it might give tralalala a hint] & [i think some of us would like to know out of curiosity]
I should not really have replied to his/her post.

I was inquisitive how he/she would get around this&#33;

So don&#39;t go shooting me down in flames&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html [/b][/quote]
no flames m8
we&#39;re all cool like little fonzi&#39;s B)
just wanted your source ;)
shalom

[clocker]

If those numbers are correct ( even if just proportionately), then I&#39;m quite surprised at how far down the list Judaism is.

Next time there is a census, I volunteer to count the Rastas&#33; :P

[billyfridge]

Do you mean to tell me people have been deluding themselves for all those
thousands of years. What worries me is how long is it going to take before we
realise religion is a load of bollocks. :unsure:

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by billyfridge@28 July 2003 - 02:34
Do you mean to tell me people have been deluding themselves for all those
thousands of years. What worries me is how long is it going to take before we
realise religion is a load of bollocks. :unsure:
@. billyfridge

Religion is a personal thing. Gives some people comfort. If it is, as you say, "...a load of bollocks" I would not wish to be the one, to &#39;enlighten&#39; them. Live and let live as they say.

One last thing, stop worrying&#33;

[tralalala]

first, dont forget the extra 6 million that should have been alive and bring up more jewish kids (which means the total would be nearly 30 million by today) that were killed in the holocaust by the german nazis.
plus, the fact there arent many jews does not mean it isnt major, its the oldest religion in the world and the one that "brought up" the other 2 (christianity and islam)&#33;&#33;&#33;

tralalala

[balamm]

From A conversation Nigel and I had some time ago>>


Matter does not contain within itself a sufficient reason to exist.

This can be put in many ways such as: Why is there something instead of nothing? We now have compelling scientific evidence that most of the elementary particles now in existence were also around 10 billion years ago. On the other hand there is no shred of evidence that any of these seemingly stable particles were in existence 20 billion years ago. Some time in the finite past, approximately 15 billion years ago, there was, according to data, a cataclysmic explosion in which the seemingly stable elementary particles we see around us were produced. Of course, even if we lived in an oscillating universe which now seems scientifically disfavored or in a steady state universe which is contrary to an overwhelming amount of astrophysical data, the fact would be no less clear that the universe does not explain its own existence.
Similarly the forces observed in nature do not have a sufficient reason for their existence or their form. A free field theory of non-interacting particles is just as mathematically self consistent as the Standard Model of modern physics and perhaps more so. Even if one eminently unique string theory could be discovered incorporating all physical observations , there would be no explanation why this theory were realized in nature.

In fact, the Thomistic argument has been greatly strengthened by quantum theory. It is now known (Bell&#39;s theorem) that the elementary particles do not have within themselves hidden variables that locally determine their subsequent behavior except on a statistical basis.

As an example, It seems quite likely from grand unification theory that the proton is unstable with a lifetime many orders of magnitude longer than the current age of the universe. (If current grand unification theory is wrong and the proton is absolutely stable, the same point can be made from other radioactive elements). There is nothing in the proton (or in the radioactive element) that determines whether it will exist one second from now if it exists now.* Thus, if the proton is unstable no matter how long its natural lifetime is, there is no guarantee from physical law that any one of us will still be living one second from now. The cause of our continued existence from one second to the next lies outside the laws of physics. We can, of course, take comfort in the statistical knowledge that the probability of any macroscopic object disappearing in the next instant is extremely small. The statistical nature of physics theory seems designed so that we can make sense of physical processes without appearing to restrict the freedom of the Author.

The basic choice that each individual must make is whether to believe that everything has a sufficient cause or to believe that things happen with no sufficient cause. To not believe in an infinite external designer and an uncaused-cause is to believe in meaninglessness and in the absence of ultimate explanations. Since the human brain is hard-wired to require causes, this stance leads rapidly to mental problems unless accompanied by a psychological state suspending fundamental questioning. Many well known scientists have succeeded in functioning in such a state through their entire lives.



tralalala-

Just because you keep insisting it is so,
does not make it so.

It just sounds whiny after a while ;)

If your arguement is that Judaism is the oldest of the modern religions, then you&#39;ve misread the topic title.

If your arguement is that Judaism is the oldest religion, period, then you&#39;d better just give it up and move on.

I think it&#39;s pretty widely held now that we all descended from prehistoric Africa and Asia for the most part.

Are you suggesting that those people practised No beliefs whatsoever?
Anything you are now started with them. Our beliefs may have evolved with time, but those roots are still with us in many ways. The names and places change, but the basic stories remain the same as someone has already pointed out in this thread.

Also, just my opinion and nothing personal, hate oriented, or racist intended, but,
Hitler is dead. Germany has been rebuilt. Those responsible were punished where possible. It&#39;s been almost 60 years. Give the holocaust excuse a break for a while.
I didn&#39;t do it and I&#39;m tired of people who expect me and the rest of the world to feel guilty about it. Throwing it out in every religeous or political discussion will only cheapen the topic.

[balamm]

It&#39;s also just occurred to me that if you want to use the holocaust to skew the numbers, then shouldn&#39;t we also factor in all the Europian victims of the bubonic plague?

Now do the math&#33;

[Rat Faced]

And dont forget all the "Heathons" etc that died as a result of war and disease spread by European invaders/settlers all over the world a few centuries ago.....

[MagicNakor]

Well, we could always throw out the Russian gulags instead of the Holocaust. They killed more people than Hitler&#39;s death-camps ever did.

:ninja:

[denis123]

Just popping in to see what´s been happening to &#39;my&#39; topic&#33;

Glad to say all is under control.

I believe it´s Shamanism, that the jewish religion, seen in a historical context, is important; Shamanism is much older and is still practised today.

[MagicNakor]

Thank you for that insightful contribution.

:ninja:

[thewizeard]

Originally posted by 11111 known as 2222@12 August 2003 - 08:01
stuff religion
Hum, are you sure it&#39;s the oldest?

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by 11111 known as 2222@12 August 2003 - 06:01
stuff religion
Surely pickling would be better, I&#39;m pretty sure my pickled religion will outlast your stuffed one...

[j2k4]

Originally posted by barbarossa+12 August 2003 - 07:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (barbarossa @ 12 August 2003 - 07:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-11111 known as 2222@12 August 2003 - 06:01
stuff religion
Surely pickling would be better, I'm pretty sure my pickled religion will outlast your stuffed one... [/b][/quote]
Yes-

Surely salt figures in somehow; Lord (excuse me) knows there are enough references to it in all pickling recipes. :P

[MagicNakor]

Though, if you pickle the stuffing....

No.


It&#39;s too crazy.

:ninja:

[j2k4]

As I thought-

Salt and religion have been mixed, but always with less-than-satisfactory results. :(

Stuffing is another matter entirely...... ;)