Are there any good arguments against trading?

[KennyX]

Summary
Privacy and security as arguments against trading are total bollocks.


Detail
There appear to be two main arguments put forward against trading by the anti-traders: privacy and security. Lets deal with these. There is no clear break between privacy and security in this context so I wont bother to try.


Privacy and security against who is the main question.

The argument about privacy/security against organisations like the MP** and RI** put forward by the anti-traders is total and absolute nonsense. Chances are that they are already a member of and are monitoring every site you are on. They probably joined in the trackers first week. At least if they wanted to do so.

Some trackers have conditions that anyone joining cant be connected to any anti-piracy organisation, effective? No, because even if these conditions are subject to real life legal processes (and that is a very big if), then there are plenty of ways to circumvent this. All it needs is for them to coerce an already existing member into providing them with all the information and access they need. Or they could pay a hacker if they wanted owner info. Even revenge as a motive is effective. How many people hate tracker X? Enough to harvest IP lists, user lists, and any other details they can find to send to their favourite anti-piracy organisation?

Are we to assume that these organisations do not have either the will or the resources to get access to the information they desire? I think not. Do they need to trade invites or accounts to get it? No. Is it advantageous for them to trade invites or accounts to get access? No.

Can they get an invite to a tracker if they want to without trading? Yes.
We know the formula for high level trackers without trading is be a good user, post a lot, be helpful, have good stats: imagine if you had the time and money to actually do this.

The advantage of not trading for organisations like the RI**/MP** is obvious. They will have better and more widespread access. A clean reputation, I would argue, will allow them to penetrate the private torrent scene much more effectively. If law enforcement spends years gaining trust to infiltrate and gather information on criminal gangs, who lets face it don't steal even a fraction of what torrent users do, then would they not apply the same tried and tested tactics to infiltrate the torrent world?

Privacy with torrents? Give me a break. Fairly easy to join a swarm in passive mode (without downloading anything so no breaking of the law) and see every single IP that is downloading that latest blockbuster. Have a seedbox to help with your privacy? It is easy to trace that seedbox down, if you are in the UK like me then the RIP act means that OVH have to pass over every detail they hold about you and they will know a lot about you!


I assume it is organisations that are against piracy that are the big concern of the anti-traders. This seems a safe assumption to me, but I might be wrong, so lets add in individual bad users and cheaters. Are these such a big problem? If a tracker cant spot bad users and cheaters then the coders and staff are not doing their job.

So your tracker has a few people who traded or even bought their way in. Hardly the end of the world is it? Most of them will turn out to be good users on your tracker, they wont cheat or draw attention to themselves and will just get on with the business of torrenting.


One final point on infiltration of sites. We all know about the rats on iTS, ScL and some other trackers who have infiltrated supposedly very private invite sites to catch traders and those doing invite giveways. It was easy for them to infiltrate these sites, do you think it would be different for a member of an anti-piracy organisation to do the same to a tracker?

[puckface]

Wow, now everyone should make long topics.

But, very well put. Agree or not.

[hitman51]

yea i know rite puckface...u expect me to read this...can i has sparknotes on this?

[1080p]

Summary
Privacy and security as arguments against trading are total bollocks.


Detail
There appear to be two main arguments put forward against trading by the anti-traders: privacy and security. Lets deal with these. There is no clear break between privacy and security in this context so I wont bother to try.


Privacy and security against who is the main question.

The argument about privacy/security against organisations like the MP** and RI** put forward by the anti-traders is total and absolute nonsense. Chances are that they are already a member of and are monitoring every site you are on. They probably joined in the trackers first week. At least if they wanted to do so.

Some trackers have conditions that anyone joining cant be connected to any anti-piracy organisation, effective? No, because even if these conditions are subject to real life legal processes (and that is a very big if), then there are plenty of ways to circumvent this. All it needs is for them to coerce an already existing member into providing them with all the information and access they need. Or they could pay a hacker if they wanted owner info. Even revenge as a motive is effective. How many people hate tracker X? Enough to harvest IP lists, user lists, and any other details they can find to send to their favourite anti-piracy organisation?

Are we to assume that these organisations do not have either the will or the resources to get access to the information they desire? I think not. Do they need to trade invites or accounts to get it? No. Is it advantageous for them to trade invites or accounts to get access? No.

Can they get an invite to a tracker if they want to without trading? Yes.
We know the formula for high level trackers without trading is be a good user, post a lot, be helpful, have good stats: imagine if you had the time and money to actually do this.

The advantage of not trading for organisations like the RI**/MP** is obvious. They will have better and more widespread access. A clean reputation, I would argue, will allow them to penetrate the private torrent scene much more effectively. If law enforcement spends years gaining trust to infiltrate and gather information on criminal gangs, who lets face it don't steal even a fraction of what torrent users do, then would they not apply the same tried and tested tactics to infiltrate the torrent world?

Privacy with torrents? Give me a break. Fairly easy to join a swarm in passive mode (without downloading anything so no breaking of the law) and see every single IP that is downloading that latest blockbuster. Have a seedbox to help with your privacy? It is easy to trace that seedbox down, if you are in the UK like me then the RIP act means that OVH have to pass over every detail they hold about you and they will know a lot about you!


I assume it is organisations that are against piracy that are the big concern of the anti-traders. This seems a safe assumption to me, but I might be wrong, so lets add in individual bad users and cheaters. Are these such a big problem? If a tracker cant spot bad users and cheaters then the coders and staff are not doing their job.

So your tracker has a few people who traded or even bought their way in. Hardly the end of the world is it? Most of them will turn out to be good users on your tracker, they wont cheat or draw attention to themselves and will just get on with the business of torrenting.


One final point on infiltration of sites. We all know about the rats on iTS, ScL and some other trackers who have infiltrated supposedly very private invite sites to catch traders and those doing invite giveways. It was easy for them to infiltrate these sites, do you think it would be different for a member of an anti-piracy organisation to do the same to a tracker?
To the average user, it is unlikely that an organization will track you and catch you sort of speak, but what worries me are the people who put the tracker up, ie. the owner. If enough people infiltrate, the owner is f'ed.

[puckface]

yea i know rite puckface...u expect me to read this...can i has sparknotes on this?

is that like cliffs notes?

[integral]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath. People trying to acquire accounts by trading are more likely to have been banned from that tracker before, or can't get an invite any other way, as no one else trusts them.

[puckface]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath. People trying to acquire accounts by trading are more likely to have been banned from that tracker before, or can't get an invite any other way, as no one else trusts them.

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

[colbert]

Eventually trading will catch up with you. If you use the same username and IP on multiple sites and some staff determines you are a trader or invite seller, you're screwed not only on that site but potentially others too.

[poontang]

Eventually trading will catch up with you. If you use the same username and IP on multiple sites and some staff determines you are a trader or invite seller, you're screwed not only on that site but potentially others too.
what he said ;)

[integral]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath. People trying to acquire accounts by trading are more likely to have been banned from that tracker before, or can't get an invite any other way, as no one else trusts them.

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

How could it be the total opposite? By opposite, do you mean trading is less likely to bring a bad user than inviting someone you know and trust? I don't have any stats to argue that, just the axiom of common sense; both people involved in a trade probably know that trading is against the rules of that tracker. So who's to say that they aren't planning on breaking more rules, or haven't broken rules before?

All ideals, moral persuasions, and opinions aside, trading is against the rules on most trackers. I don't trade. However, if I invite a trader, and he goes on to trade his account or invite and gets caught, what happens to me? I could get my invites or even account disabled. If anything, we are at the whim of the tracker staff; the administrators don't want their invites/account memberships turning into a commodity for whatever reason, therefore most people won't risk that by trading or inviting traders.

[puckface]

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

How could it be the total opposite? By opposite, do you mean trading is less likely to bring a bad user than inviting someone you know and trust? I don't have any stats to argue that, just the axiom of common sense; both people involved in a trade probably know that trading is against the rules of that tracker. So who's to say that they aren't planning on breaking more rules, or haven't broken rules before?

All ideals, moral persuasions, and opinions aside, trading is against the rules on most trackers. I don't trade. However, if I invite a trader, and he goes on to trade his account or invite and gets caught, what happens to me? I could get my invites or even account disabled. If anything, we are at the whim of the tracker staff; the administrators don't want their invites/account memberships turning into a commodity for whatever reason, therefore most people won't risk that by trading or inviting traders.

Good points. Personally I subscribe to the belief (maybe I'm gullible) that people who trade do it to get into trackers they want to be in. All the work they put into getting "good" trackers would be all for naught if they broke the rules of said tracker. Trading is a lot of work and takes plenty of time to reach your goals. When you get your goals, you most likely aren't gonna fuck around and lose them.

Like I say, may I am gullible. This is just a different angle on something from a person who has yes (gasp!), traded before.

[seppypom]

The argument about privacy/security against organisations like the MP** and RI** put forward by the anti-traders is total and absolute nonsense.

Are you afraid that the MPAA & RIAA are going to ban you if you write out there full names and post there URL's in public?

Just wondering?

[TP635]

The only valid reason against trading is that it is against tracker sites rules (if/when they have such rule). Why a site have such rule is not the question that is to argue here.

To argue that it is a form of security risk is not being smart. If a 14 year kid can make his/her way to high level site, then it need not take an FBI agent to be very smart to do the same.

[lukee]

yea i know rite puckface...u expect me to read this...can i has sparknotes on this?

I can haz leanrz english?

[djkamikaze]

the person you are trading with has no real vested interest in maintaining YOUR good name at a particular tracker. He doesn't know you, and most likely will never trade with you again anyway. A person whom you know, is IMO, more likely to keep his nose clean in order to make sure the buddy who went out on a limb to invite him doesn't get into any sort of trouble.

Additionally, since it seems (for forum posts I've read here over the last 1-2 years) that most people who are trading invites also have no qualms about trading accounts. that means:
-you trade invites with someone
-he uses the account for a while
-he gets bored with said account
-he decides that account is worth more to him as a bargaining chip to trade for something he wants more

now, this person who is using an account YOU invited, is someone totally unknown to you. Are you comfortable with that, knowing that if that account is caught cheating, it could mean you get banned as well?

another thing to point out; remember that ass klajdi that was selling oinks invites on ebay about 2 years ago? It turned out he was getting the invites in trades on forums like this, and then selling them on ebay. If you stick to the torrent sites' invite rules, and only invite people you know, don't you think it's reasonable to believe that a person you know is less likely to get you into trouble?

finally, do you consider yourself a trustworthy person? you agreed to those sites terms and conditions when you signed up. It may sound lame, but I value my reputation, and if I agree to something, I make every reasonable attempt to stand by what I agreed to.

If someone is willing to break one rule on a torrent site (no trading of invites or accounts) then in my opinion they are willing to break any rule on that site, including ratio cheating. there are about 3 or 4 major rules that are nearly identical on all torrent sites, and if you break one of those major rules (trading) then obviously the rules mean nothing to you

[NA_Magus]

Trading creates deception and leads to paranoia which just harms the community in the long run.
How often do you hear of scams and those who are unwilling to share invites?

[Squizzle]

It must be great for you traders browsing sites on accounts that aren't yours... a nickname that isn't yours, GBs that aren't yours, forum posts and torrent comments that you didn't make.

I bet it makes you really feel like part of the community...

[ghurka]

It's all about doing your time in the BT community and earning the right to be at certain trackers. Trading is simply a way for those who don't have the patience and don't really deserve to be there.

If I can put is simply as possibly for some of those traders who still don't get the message....the staff don't want assholes on their trackers and neither do the members.

[DV8type]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath....

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

A 2005 Harvard study concluded that trading tracker invite/account is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction. Furthermore, when surveyed leading tracker developers agreed that if your not on a 1337 tracker your peni actually shrinks. When pressed for a quote a top FileSharingTalk mod who chose to remain anonymous reveled, "9 out of 10 traders can only get hard when using the middle man section." Unfortunately, the only outcome for such a user is calloused hands and sticky keyboards.
:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

[maverick_andy]

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

A 2005 Harvard study concluded that trading tracker invite/account is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction. Furthermore, when surveyed leading tracker developers agreed that if your not on a 1337 tracker your peni actually shrinks. When pressed for a quote a top FileSharingTalk mod who chose to remain anonymous reveled, "9 out of 10 traders can only get hard when using the middle man section." Unfortunately, the only outcome for such a user is calloused hands and sticky keyboards.
:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:
:wacko::wacko:when harvard got into such things:lol:

[Ali-g]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath. People trying to acquire accounts by trading are more likely to have been banned from that tracker before, or can't get an invite any other way, as no one else trusts them.

+1 :yup:
When u trade u dont ask for proofs speedtests, etc.
So u can invite ANYONE, its exactly as if it was OPEN SIGNUPs on the trackers

[Artemis]

It must be great for you traders browsing sites on accounts that aren't yours... a nickname that isn't yours, GBs that aren't yours, forum posts and torrent comments that you didn't make.

I bet it makes you really feel like part of the community...

Squizzle's post goes exactly to the heart of the matter (and he should know)
at the end of the rainbow when you have traded into all your trackers you end up at the small community sites, that want to be small, that want a tight community where everyone knows each other and that is what the site is actually about a small community the pre-times aren't that flash, it isn't warp factor 9 download speeds because there isn't a seedbox extravaganza. So many of you build up the chase to the next tracker and when you finally get to the summit it's not what you expected, in fact you traded away way better trackers (for what you want them for) on the way to these sites. I have seen so many comments from those that have traded who have managed to get into these sites, and they are usually pissed off at what they find (which I find highly amusing). Trading becomes something to do....for the sake of the trade itself, for the buzz, it has nothing to do with getting into the trackers that you want and being good members of the tracker, you pass them around like baseball cards, and that isn't being a good member of the tracker IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DON'T WANT. How many times does this need to be said, we are guests of a private site created by someone else, all they want from you is to follow a few extremely simple rules, and a biggie on most is only invite people you know and trust. So how exactly is trading your way in and then flicking off the next baseball card in anyway good for the community ?
To me the very fact that trading goes completely against what is trying to be achieved within the community,and negates the argument that traders will be good for the tracker. Trading ultimately is a selfish act, I want it now, I don't want to make an effort I'll just trade it quickly, and in being selfish, in saying I want it now, you are going against the spirit of the community and the hard work of the staff and coders who put the effort into making these trackers. In creating an identity , and if you spent any time in the forums a 'feel' for the tracker, and that is what the staff who created the websites in the first place really want, a community, that is the real thanks they get for the effort they put in, so this is the real argument against trading, it goes against the spirit of the community and the concept of a private tracker.

[disconny]

It is really weird to use someone else's name on a site. Every time you see yourself on that site you know it really isn't you, and the account isn't really yours. Animals like to urinate on stuff to claim territory and having your name on an account is like... urine o_O This probably wasn't the best analogy.

[mrnobody]

Trading is more likely to bring in bad users such as cheaters, or account/invite sellers (since monetary exchanges are a form of trading) than inviting a person you know and trust. I've known people who have unknowingly invited traders to trackers they were members on, and later felt the aftermath. People trying to acquire accounts by trading are more likely to have been banned from that tracker before, or can't get an invite any other way, as no one else trusts them.

Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

Suppose there is a user named A in tracker XYZ. Tracker XYZ has strict rule against trading.

Most, if not all, traders are likely to trade their invites for another tracker. Then the next guy, as a trader, is likely to trade his invite as well. So, the invite trend would be something like -

User A trades his invited with user B. User B buffers his accounts, waits to get an invite and when he does, User B trades his invite with user C. Like wise user C trades his invites with user D and so forth.

The possibility of catching this invite tree INCREASES with each new invitee.

In addition to that, most traders keep low profile, i.e. they would NEVER post in the forum or join IRC or even post thank you in torrent comments. In other words, they contribute nothing to the community. Yes they would prolly get a traded seedbox to buffer their account to a userclass that is eligible for invites.

edit: not to mention that trading usually, if not always, occurs with strangers. They could be anyone, for instance a cheater or ex-member of the site.





Please give stats to that effect. I think it is the total opposite.

A 2005 Harvard study concluded that trading tracker invite/account is the leading cause of erectile dysfunction. Furthermore, when surveyed leading tracker developers agreed that if your not on a 1337 tracker your peni actually shrinks. When pressed for a quote a top FileSharingTalk mod who chose to remain anonymous reveled, "9 out of 10 traders can only get hard when using the middle man section." Unfortunately, the only outcome for such a user is calloused hands and sticky keyboards.
:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

wouldn't have bothered to reply if i read this before :glag:

[Night0wl]

It is really weird to use someone else's name on a site. Every time you see yourself on that site you know it really isn't you, and the account isn't really yours. Animals like to urinate on stuff to claim territory and having your name on an account is like... urine o_O This probably wasn't the best analogy.

Even if not the best analogy, it sure was funny to read:lol:

[flamers]

Yes, there are good argumants......which should be directed at fst staff, not everyone else just for doing it.

[Kyl3KK]

I'll put my 2 cents in. I didn't read much in this thread but I saw puckface post and I like him, so I'll post.

I don't care about invite trading, to be honest. I don't do it myself, but I couldn't care less about it. What I DO care about is account trading, and it really is an entirely different thing.

When you trade an invite, neither person has an account on the tracker (they might if they're dedicated traders, but for the sake of this, they don't). And really, they could be great users. So for all the trackers know, a friend did invite him. I highly doubt they're gonna cheat on their own account that they made for them on an invite. They wouldn't trade this account, after all. If they wanted to, they would've traded for an account.

Also, I dunno where this idea about "traders trade everything they get" came along. They don't. At least not the good ones. They have "goals" and when they get them, they keep those invites/accounts for themselves.

A smart trader will only trade invites, and only trade FOR invites as well.

ACCOUNT traders are different, in my opinion. They typically trade to trade, and it's MUCH easier to be caught.

I know people that are traders on ScT, FTN, and FSC, and they're GREAT users. They would NEVER trade anything for those accounts, ever.

That being said, if you ever try to trade an account used from an invite I gave you, I'll rip your head off and shove shit down your neck. :)

[c0njur]

Nice post KennyX.

I think the real question here is, why have invites in the first place? Kenny made some compelling arguments about how the invite system doesn't further security in the slightest, so why have invites at all? Why not have open sign ups and let everybody who wants in to join. Then there would be no traders for everybody to bitch about.

...But of course this would never happen. Then people wouldn't get the opportunity to feel 1337 in their hard to obtain trackers. But such is life, and the BT community is no different from the social systems in the real world.

[stoi]

We opened up, never again lol

Hit and Runners galore
Cheaters galore
Dupe accounts galore. (sign up loads of accounts on the offchance we close, then trade sell them, or just hit and runners downloading 4 things, going into KL, rejoining and repeating the process).

If potential members played fair and didnt fuck about, i would stay open, but life isnt that simple im afraid.

[That1Guy]

I didnt even read the whole post, but the reason not to trade is it is against the rules. There can be honor among thieves imo

[Artemis]

I didnt even read the whole post, but the reason not to trade is it is against the rules. There can be honor among thieves imo

which is exactly why owners like stoi are frustrated and can't trust you.....

[kooftspc11]

there is really nothing wrong with trading. yeah, its against site rules but.....

traders dont bother me as much as anti-traders do. i dont like pepsi but i dont feel the need to put it in my signature nor do i think its necessary to adopt an outwardly anti-pepsi mentality and smear it all over a forum

wtf?

[wheeloftime]

there is really nothing wrong with trading. yeah, its against site rules but.....


The owners of these trackers risk far more than you or I do whilst giving us these great sites for free. If they don't want members to trade that should be enough to stop people trading.

[sokrates]

isnt trading just a big waste of time?
why do some people think everybody does it btw? its not like you need to do it to get anywhere..

[KennyX]

KFedit : removed the swearing part and attacks, this ain't something we accept here, thank you



yea i know rite puckface...u expect me to read this...can i has sparknotes on this?

Summary
Privacy and security as arguments against trading are total bollocks.

I put this in just for you after you said it in the other thread!



Eventually trading will catch up with you. If you use the same username and IP on multiple sites and some staff determines you are a trader or invite seller, you're screwed not only on that site but potentially others too.

Perhaps, but many trackers dont care at all as long as there are no problems on the account. If I was going to become a trader then I would sign up and use trackers from a public place, like a school or library or even using my seedbox, and make my accounts there to keep my home IP out of the tracker's system. I would upload and download using a seedbox to buffer accounts for trade if I had to.





The argument about privacy/security against organisations like the MP** and RI** put forward by the anti-traders is total and absolute nonsense.

Are you afraid that the MPAA & RIAA are going to ban you if you write out there full names and post there URL's in public?

Just wondering?

That was funny but no, many people do this and like a sheep I just copied them.Don't want to tempt fate by invoking the name of the devil spawn I suppose.



The only valid reason against trading is that it is against tracker sites rules (if/when they have such rule). Why a site have such rule is not the question that is to argue here.

To argue that it is a form of security risk is not being smart. If a 14 year kid can make his/her way to high level site, then it need not take an FBI agent to be very smart to do the same.

I agree with the against tracker rules part being the only valid reason. Who knows, maybe the FBI have hired that 14 year old kid? The whole point of this thread was to show that tracker privacy and security are not arguments that can be used against trading as they have no relevance and anyone who thinks so is living in a little fantasy world.


I am going to deal with all the arguments about community in one response. The majority of users, traders or not, just dont give a damn about community. They post on forums only when there is a problem: they never join IRC, never give torrent comments and generally use the tracker only to download stuff. So what if traders are not big on community, they just act like the majority of users do.


c0njur, I agree with you completely its all about the 1337'ness. Read some of the threads by people who think they are elite because they have tracker X or are staff on tracker Y and you just want to laugh at them. I should point out that none of this is aimed at stoi in any way as he is a good guy who actually makes good posts (even if I dont agree with him!).


kooftspc11, I am with you totally on this as anti-traders irritate me as well.

It is the moralistic attitude of the anti-traders that gets to me most of all. They are thieves, just like me, and have no inherent right of moral superiority over anyone else who uses FST. People like benchez, or anyone else in the anti-trade brigade, are the real scum of the torrent world as they are so morally hypocritical; not us average FST users as we dont claim to be morally superior, better or more elite than anyone else.

[deadalive1]

@ whoever

Trading (regardless of whatever excuse given for it) comes down to 1 single point. It is against EVERY trackers rules....end of story. On that point alone no trader argument can stand...PERIOD!

Now if they want to totally disregard that rule, what does that say about their character?

What does it say about how they treated the person who invited them to the tracker they are/or have now just traded to begin with? Most traders will tell their initial inviter... I won't trade, I will keep the account in good standing and then proceed to buffer the shit out of it and trade it away. With no care of whether their inviter or anyone else in the inviters tree gets banned over their actions.

People hate/dislike traders for that point also, most are just self-serving little boys looking to work their way up the levels, so they can brag about their e-penises. Which, when it comes right down to it, isn't theirs to begin with. It was someone else's account after all that they traded for.

Their word means less than nothing.

[puckface]

@ KennyX

@ whoever

Trading (regardless of whatever excuse given for it) comes down to 1 single point. It is against EVERY trackers rules....end of story. On that point alone no trader argument can stand...PERIOD!

Now if they want to totally disregard that rule, what does that say about their character?

What does it say about how they treated the person who invited them to the tracker they are/or have now just traded to begin with? Most traders will tell their initial inviter... I won't trade, I will keep the account in good standing and then proceed to buffer the shit out of it and trade it away. With no care of whether their inviter or anyone else in the inviters tree gets banned over their actions.

People hate/dislike traders for that point also, most are just self-serving little boys looking to work their way up the levels, so they can brag about their e-penises. Which, when it comes right down to it, isn't theirs to begin with. It was someone else's account after all that they traded for.

Their word means less than nothing.


Just curious... so what is your stance on invite giveaways in forums like FST? This is also against EVERY trackers rules....end of story. I haven't heard much about this from anyone though.

[Nemrod]

The question you posted, puckface, it´s not for me but I´d like to state my opinion: giveaways are a very irresponsible thing, a proof of disrespect to the tracker. In my firsts days here I made 1 or 2, fortunately only a few convinced me and I didn´t give not even the 20% of offered.
I can´t deny some users try to do it in a very demanding way and select winners very carefully. Even so I don´t like giveaways... I´ve seen excellent proofs, non traders, and respected users applying, but they requested something they didn´t know what it was exactly, or they didn´t like the site, or whatever, and many accounts are created and never used... in the best of the cases.
The first thing I have on my mind is that I am a guest in a private site, it´s not my site, I´m only there as an invitee, my first obligation is follow some rules and keep the behavior they expect from me.
Giveaways are exactly the same that trading.
I have given dozens of invites to very wanted and high leveled sites, but I like more to select the candidate by myself, I see a guy who is asking for a certain site, he insists, I check his profile and then it´s possible I call him via PM and make my own test. If he passes it, he may get it. So far that system has worked very well for me.
But giveaways for getting RP, to look like a cool guy or exhibit them later as a proof or helping and generous member when he asks for something is nothing else but crap.

[Artemis]

there is really nothing wrong with trading. yeah, its against site rules but.....

traders dont bother me as much as anti-traders do. i dont like pepsi but i dont feel the need to put it in my signature nor do i think its necessary to adopt an outwardly anti-pepsi mentality and smear it all over a forum

wtf?


ahhhhh I see my favorite little forum troll is back to toss some more flames on the fire then sod off to watch the mayhem........ it gets less fun when people get wise to you

http://xs130.xs.to/xs130/08316/youranidiot396.jpg (http://xs.to)

[stoi]

seems like i am repeating myself here in about 5 different threads, but here goes.

invite trading, isnt so bad if both members want those trackers, because they will start out with their own identity and on 0/0 0.00 ratio.

Account traders most of the time are looking for buffered accounts, because they either want the promotion/benefits that come with the account, or they just want to rape the site dry and that account of everything the tracker has (or most) and just not seed back at all.

Its like cheating on a game. you buy/download a game, boot it up, before you even try to do it yourself, you cheat and get invinite ammo, level skips and go to the final boss and beat the game.

its pointless, Why should a trader get a very good account on a very good tracker [7-10] in the content rating, not the silly rarity rating, without putting any work in themselves.

Laziness and greediness springs to mind for account traders, invite traders, at least they have to work at the account when they get it, even if it is a month with a seedbox, they still have to work at it a bit.

also an account trader will usually use the buffer up, and trade that account again for another buffered account on another tracker, thats a little bit lower on the rarity ratings, and its just a viscious circle.

they could by rights, spend 3 years trading accounts, and never upload a byte, but download TBs of stuff.

Now is that a good member?

[Duckater]

The question you posted, puckface, it´s not for me but I´d like to state my opinion: giveaways are a very irresponsible thing, a proof of disrespect to the tracker. In my firsts days here I made 1 or 2, fortunately only a few convinced me and I didn´t give not even the 20% of offered.
I can´t deny some users try to do it in a very demanding way and select winners very carefully. Even so I don´t like giveaways... I´ve seen excellent proofs, non traders, and respected users applying, but they requested something they didn´t know what it was exactly, or they didn´t like the site, or whatever, and many accounts are created and never used... in the best of the cases.
The first thing I have on my mind is that I am a guest in a private site, it´s not my site, I´m only there as an invitee, my first obligation is follow some rules and keep the behavior they expect from me.
Giveaways are exactly the same that trading.
I have given dozens of invites to very wanted and high leveled sites, but I like more to select the candidate by myself, I see a guy who is asking for a certain site, he insists, I check his profile and then it´s possible I call him via PM and make my own test. If he passes it, he may get it. So far that system has worked very well for me.
But giveaways for getting RP, to look like a cool guy or exhibit them later as a proof or helping and generous member when he asks for something is nothing else but crap.


A very well put post that I do agree with :)
I personnally will not give invites to people on these sort of forums (with the odd exception that I know from else where) as I will not know them well enough.
Most sites do not like give aways as the chances are the rules state must give them to people you know and trust, now 90% of people here do not use there real nicks that they use for sites so how can you trust them? Also ratio prrofs with names blocked out could really be any ones that they have found on a numerous sites like this one.
I also do not see that a speed test proves any thing about a users capabilities to manage there torrents correctly. Also I have noticed people with ratio's as high as 20 on torrent sites that have wait times and this to me is more damaging to other members of that site than a ratio of 0.8 so I consider them as bad users on them sorts of sites, unless of course most of the excess upload against download is due to the fact they are either A an uploader there or have donated for gigs.

Now I know the topic is about trading accounts/invites which I also disagree with and this is due to its against site rules in 99.9% of cases, if you are a member of any site you should at least respect the rules of the site.

But to me the worst offenders are sellers of invites/accounts the owners/staff have more than likely spent not only a lot of time building the site but else there own money and by selling invites this is totally disrepecting them.
What would people say if the likes of stoi, brandon and other site owners started selling invites to help fund the sites costs. I am betting that there would be people here really tearing strips off them calling them money hungry %*!$'s. Yet some people think that selling invites is no different than trading, this I cannot figure out why!!!


P.S.
Well put stoi :)

[PlayeR]

i would have to agree with stoi.
even both really want to get in the trackers. and will use the account and seed back what they've downloaded, then i think trading for that is okay.

but if both only want to have the tracker so that they can boast themselves then it would be very wrong to do so..

[stoi]

That why if you do trade for a BCG buffered account, it useless to most traders, even if its got 300TB buffer.

if you download # of torrents (and its in single figures) and dont upload anything on them, or dont seed them for the SP, you go into KL and cant download anymore.

So the damage that you can do on BCG is minimul.

[Artemis]

@KennyX in reply to your reply style


The majority of users, traders or not, just dont give a damn about community. They post on forums only when there is a problem: they never join IRC, never give torrent comments and generally use the tracker only to download stuff. So what if traders are not big on community, they just act like the majority of users do.

So your just there for the goods gtfo, there is no thanks for the effort of others, and capping/encoding/racing/uploading all takes time & effort, but they can get stuffed this is all for your own entertainment.....nice


They are thieves, just like me, and have no inherent right of moral superiority over anyone else who uses FST. People like benchez, or anyone else in the anti-trade brigade, are the real scum of the torrent world as they are so morally hypocritical; not us average FST users as we dont claim to be morally superior, better or more elite than anyone else.

You do realise you've managed to single out a staff member of a tracker, to hurl these little nuggets of wisdom at, actually one of several staff members in this thread and not the only one you have managed to insult. Well done wish you luck if you ever need their help. You just don't get it, the bit torrent section isn't the be all and end all, this is a forum where alot of different people meet, and many of the people you have chosen to be so vehement at have been in the community for a very long time, because unlike you they view it as a community.

[puckface]

The question you posted, puckface, it´s not for me but I´d like to state my opinion: giveaways are a very irresponsible thing, a proof of disrespect to the tracker. In my firsts days here I made 1 or 2, fortunately only a few convinced me and I didn´t give not even the 20% of offered.
I can´t deny some users try to do it in a very demanding way and select winners very carefully. Even so I don´t like giveaways... I´ve seen excellent proofs, non traders, and respected users applying, but they requested something they didn´t know what it was exactly, or they didn´t like the site, or whatever, and many accounts are created and never used... in the best of the cases.
The first thing I have on my mind is that I am a guest in a private site, it´s not my site, I´m only there as an invitee, my first obligation is follow some rules and keep the behavior they expect from me.
Giveaways are exactly the same that trading.
I have given dozens of invites to very wanted and high leveled sites, but I like more to select the candidate by myself, I see a guy who is asking for a certain site, he insists, I check his profile and then it´s possible I call him via PM and make my own test. If he passes it, he may get it. So far that system has worked very well for me.
But giveaways for getting RP, to look like a cool guy or exhibit them later as a proof or helping and generous member when he asks for something is nothing else but crap.

well the question was really for everyone and I appreciate your response.

[stoi]

I think the big problem is how and where its done.

Lets take 2 members and 3 trackers i just pulled out of thin air.

Both members are in BitmeTV, they both take part in the IRC and the forums. they get to know each other.

they talk for a few weeks, one asks the other if he knows any 0 day trackers, because he hasnt got any, the other asks if he knows any games trackers, because he hasnt go a specialised games tracker, but he loves games.

they each have an Invite to FTN and BCG (if either of us had invites)

so they invite each other, to those 2 trackers, after getting to know one another. they are both in each others invite tree so they should keep an eye on each other, and as they have been talking for a few weeks anyway, they should know each other well enough.

and who gives a fuck if one is lvl 9 and the other is lvl 2, they both want those trackers to use them, so whats the harm. (they are both just trackers after all).

but doing it on FST to anyone that can give you fake screenshots and fake speed tests is just bollocks. it shows that you cant have a very good judgement to who you invite and you do not care about the tracker.

When i do giveaways on here, i add everyone i give an account to my friends list.

the amount of loosers that dont use the account, get into KL never to return, or just plain cheat right in front of me is ridiculous.

not many are saints on here, thats not to say you dont get some, but they are few and far between i have to say.

what i am trying to say is, if i can do giveaways and get scum, what chance have yous got.

[Enlightened]

Seems like everyone wants their "piece" of manuscript to be a "Sticky" so that all will remember, how "clever" & Articulate they have written......LOL

Did Not know this is a Literary , Essay or thesis or dissertation Forum.....must have join the "wrong" Forum.....help me !.....LMAO

[kooftspc11]

there is really nothing wrong with trading. yeah, its against site rules but.....

traders dont bother me as much as anti-traders do. i dont like pepsi but i dont feel the need to put it in my signature nor do i think its necessary to adopt an outwardly anti-pepsi mentality and smear it all over a forum

wtf?


ahhhhh I see my favorite little forum troll is back to toss some more flames on the fire then sod off to watch the mayhem........ it gets less fun when people get wise to you


ahhh i see my #1 fan on fst...how do you do, sir?

[Sextent]

@KennyX in reply to your reply style



So your just there for the goods gtfo, there is no thanks for the effort of others, and capping/encoding/racing/uploading all takes time & effort, but they can get stuffed this is all for your own entertainment.....nice


They are thieves, just like me, and have no inherent right of moral superiority over anyone else who uses FST. People like benchez, or anyone else in the anti-trade brigade, are the real scum of the torrent world as they are so morally hypocritical; not us average FST users as we dont claim to be morally superior, better or more elite than anyone else.

You do realise you've managed to single out a staff member of a tracker, to hurl these little nuggets of wisdom at, actually one of several staff members in this thread and not the only one you have managed to insult. Well done wish you luck if you ever need their help. You just don't get it, the bit torrent section isn't the be all and end all, this is a forum where alot of different people meet, and many of the people you have chosen to be so vehement at have been in the community for a very long time, because unlike you they view it as a community.




:glag:

Do you think anyone will tell ben that this oaf called him "real scum".

Why should he (not ben, the oaf) care though. He has decided that his opinion is more important than anyone else's. Based on arguments that go along the lines of "Why lock your door, people can get in anyway?" Fantastic, if entirely specious logic.

Anyway, the bottom line is if it's against a site owners rules then that's it. You can speak to him and try to change their mind. However if you decide to just break their rules, then it's you who is the scum, that's just a fact.

[integral]

I like how people love to argue the point that traders can be honest people who only stop once they've got their one "dream" tracker. Start viewing the post/thread history of random traders in the trading section, and tell me if you still have the audacity to argue that point.

[Something Else]

:mellow:

[Sextent]

I like how people love to argue the point that traders can be honest people who only stop once they've got their one "dream" tracker. Start viewing the post/thread history of random traders in the trading section, and tell me if you still have the audacity to argue that point.

The end justifies the means is rarely a good argument.


:mellow:

Looks like that's a yes.

[disconny]

Is it ok to trade for high level trackers, sell them on ebay, and buy bread and water from the profits to feed my starving family?

[deadalive1]

Is it ok to trade for high level trackers, sell them on ebay, and buy bread and water from the profits to feed my starving family?
heh, NO , if your family was starving you shouldn't be paying for internet access, get ya lazy ass off the internet and go to work. :lol:

[Duckater]

Is it ok to trade for high level trackers, sell them on ebay, and buy bread and water from the profits to feed my starving family?
heh, NO , if your family was starving you shouldn't be paying for internet access, get ya lazy ass off the internet and go to work. :lol:

+1 Try working

[That1Guy]

I didnt even read the whole post, but the reason not to trade is it is against the rules. There can be honor among thieves imo

which is exactly why owners like stoi are frustrated and can't trust you.....

Stoi is frustrated with me because I am not a trader?
I said "there can be honor among thieves". What I mean is just because we may break certain "rules". (*cough* pirates *cough). does not mean we dont have morals....Are you confused or did I miss something?

[stroj]

Are there any good pro-trading arguments?
(http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/f-bittorrent-43/t-are-there-any-good-arguments-against-trading-306018/page2)

[Artemis]

which is exactly why owners like stoi are frustrated and can't trust you.....

Stoi is frustrated with me because I am not a trader?
I said "there can be honor among thieves". What I mean is just because we may break certain "rules". (*cough* pirates *cough). does not mean we dont have morals....Are you confused or did I miss something?

Mea culpa, I actually read your post the other way, as in there can be no honor among thieves since the main gist of this thread has been an argument to try and legitimise trading by saying that the end justifies the means!
So for that I do apologise, it is just I have seen the same thing over & over & over and the same argument is wheeled out , yet it really doesn't change things one bit, the private trackers want you to respect their rules, they are so very simple, and basically all they are asking for is consideration as members of the website that they created.






ahhhhh I see my favorite little forum troll is back to toss some more flames on the fire then sod off to watch the mayhem........ it gets less fun when people get wise to you


ahhh i see my #1 fan on fst...how do you do, sir?

:emo::fear:

[stoi]

Its basically a catch 22 situation.

We open up, we get dupes, cheats, idiots etc etc

We close to stop them, we get the dupes trading and selling accounts.

We bring in invites we get the good members not using them for fear if being banned, and the dupes cheats inviting themselves making more dupe accounts, or trading/selling the things.

we just cant win.

[disconny]

Its basically a catch 22 situation.

We open up, we get dupes, cheats, idiots etc etc

We close to stop them, we get the dupes trading and selling accounts.

We bring in invites we get the good members not using them for fear if being banned, and the dupes cheats inviting themselves making more dupe accounts, or trading/selling the things.

we just cant win.
How did it work out when you personally invited people after they explained why they wanted BCG?
I know you got at least one good member that way (me) :P