View Full Version : Ontologically speaking, how can GOD be proven
Ontologically, prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists, burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith.
How could one do that without being ontological? :huh:
Well a lot of the discussion of God gets to the point where religion is brought up, unnecessarily, although they play a central role in the belief of God today, religion has no merits on the origins or God, or the possibility of God even existing. For instance, if you ever argue with a deist or a theist they all believe in a personal God. Not only do they know a God exists, they know which one is the right one, from a potentially infinite list as long as the human species. This gives them reason to deny the opposing argument in an attempt to defend "their God". Everyone in the world is an atheist, everyone can name a God that they do not believe in (Zeus, Ra, Osiris, etc.), with this in mind when arguing the existence of God, theists often make the case to advance the superiority of their God.
In brief, discussion with God in terms of intelligent design, justification of rationality and morality, and the design of the universe.
Barbarossa
06-05-2009, 08:45 AM
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
I'll leave that to the theist, my argument has no bearing on that.
And why is faith such a good thing, the concept that something to be held true without evidence is a very primitive way of thinking that belongs to the barbaric side of human history.
Barbarossa
06-05-2009, 09:31 AM
Do you have proof that everything you see is made of atoms and molecules?
Or do you have faith that the physicists know what they're talking about
Do you have proof that everything you see is made of atoms and molecules?
Or do you have faith that the physicists know what they're talking about
That is just over-simplifying a situation, evidence is available to be proven if challenged, cannot say the same thing about God.
Barbarossa
06-05-2009, 10:33 AM
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
The_Martinator
06-05-2009, 11:26 AM
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
They have, but the answers have tiny holes in them. They're 99%.
You have to trust the devices that were used to get the answers and the 1% gets lost somewhere in between.
Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.
The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.
God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.
We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:
if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.
The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.
Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.
If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.
Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P
I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.
pentomato
06-05-2009, 03:45 PM
Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.
The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.
God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.
We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:
if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.
The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.
Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.
If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.
Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P
I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.
I don't think you made your case to say that GOD exists, so far you haven't prove anything.
Don't tell me the bible was written by god, because that is crap, most books of the new testament, people wrote them houndred of years after "Jesus" died, so you are going to have to make a better job proving anyone wrong.
Calling somebody an idiot for not believing in God, that makes you a religious intolerant and we have lots of those in this world, not more needed. It is about respecting everybodies believes.
knivesreturns
06-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Can you prove to me that god doesn't exist?
Rat Faced
06-05-2009, 05:36 PM
Do you have proof that everything you see is made of atoms and molecules?
Or do you have faith that the physicists know what they're talking about
That is just over-simplifying a situation, evidence is available to be proven if challenged, cannot say the same thing about God.
You have that the wrong way around.
A Hypothesis/Theory gains weight by not being proven false, not by being proven correct. It's virtually impossible to prove something is 100% fact.
The Theory of Evolution, for example, is still a Theory.. Granted, It's stood the test of time and is a very Strong Theory, but its still a Theory.
On a level playing field then any "God" does not have to be proven, "his" or "her" or "its" existence is valid until disproven.
The problem I have with all of this is that I don't believe the subject of "God" is valid for any type of Scientific Analysis.
It's the same arguement I use with Creationism in Science Classes.. Its not that I dont think people should be taught Religion, it's just that its not Science... and should therefore be restricted to Religious classes.
pentomato
06-05-2009, 08:45 PM
Can you prove to me that god doesn't exist?
So you want prove? I could ask you, if God is such a great god, why do so many kids suffer so much, why the people that say they are servants of god, abuse so much and they get away with for years and years, ans justice is never serve?
You prove me that GOD exists, come on try.
GOD is an imaginary idol than men created to control a bunch of people.
God is what some people need, when they don't any hope at all.
Look at the middle east, there is a god there?
Look at Ireland, Christinas against Christinas for so many years.
Look at Spain, so many people killed in the inquisition.
Look at the midle east, do I need to say more?
Look at the united States congress. When the republicans were in power, they would say that GOD spoke to them, well, god must be an asswhole then. They were against abortion and killing kids in Iraq and afganistan, it is amazing how religion brainwashes people and nobody seems to understand anything about it.
I am tired of people saying, god is misterious, of course he is...
bigboab
06-05-2009, 09:03 PM
Can you prove to me that god doesn't exist?
So you want prove? I could ask you, if God is such a great god, why do so many kids suffer so much, why the people that say they are servants of god, abuse so much and they get away with for years and years, ans justice is never serve?
You prove me that GOD exists, come on try.
GOD is an imaginary idol than men created to control a bunch of people.
God is what some people need, when they don't any hope at all.
Look at the middle east, there is a god there?
Look at Ireland, Christinas against Christinas for so many years.
Look at Spain, so many people killed in the inquisition.
Look at the midle east, do I need to say more?
Look at the united States congress. When the republicans were in power, they would say that GOD spoke to them, well, god must be an asswhole then. They were against abortion and killing kids in Iraq and afganistan, it is amazing how religion brainwashes people and nobody seems to understand anything about it.
I am tired of people saying, god is misterious, of course he is...
Gos is a debt collector now. Mister ious.:cry:
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
I'm preaching doubt, the burden of proof is on the theist and deistbecuase you already know the answer, its in the book. Asking me how I not know how the universe came about is an impossibility.
That is just over-simplifying a situation, evidence is available to be proven if challenged, cannot say the same thing about God.
You have that the wrong way around.
A Hypothesis/Theory gains weight by not being proven false, not by being proven correct. It's virtually impossible to prove something is 100% fact.
The Theory of Evolution, for example, is still a Theory.. Granted, It's stood the test of time and is a very Strong Theory, but its still a Theory.
On a level playing field then any "God" does not have to be proven, "his" or "her" or "its" existence is valid until disproven.
The problem I have with all of this is that I don't believe the subject of "God" is valid for any type of Scientific Analysis.
It's the same arguement I use with Creationism in Science Classes.. Its not that I dont think people should be taught Religion, it's just that its not Science... and should therefore be restricted to Religious classes.
Tell me what tools are readily available to you and not me where you can substantiate a God theory to the degree of accuracy evolution and atomic theories....God has not stood the test of time, the list of "Gods" that have been retired are in the thousands; now I'm expected to make a case for this one God that hinges on the fact that I have to believe in it without any sort of reconcile proof? PUHLEASE
bigboab
06-05-2009, 09:16 PM
When did man first find out about God? How many people were present when this knowledge was obtained?
Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.
The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.
God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.
We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:
if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.
The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.
Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.
If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.
Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P
I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.
I can't not disprove God, I don't have a book that tells me the origins of the universe, you have to tell me how the earth was arisen in 7 days, I don't have to disprove that, because I would just laugh. You know how it went, I don't think science understands or ever will understand where the origins of life and the universe came from. But I'd assume it would take >7 days to develop.
Okay you went from God going from a spiritual being (not a physical one) to one who "has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being" and to one whose "plan is for man to find and worship Him". Okay two points I want to make here then I'll try to attack your design argument. First of all that last sentence sounds a lot like servility, the desire to be an abject slave. Your first sentence sounds a lot like God has a plan for all of us. Tell that to the people who died in the Holocaust, I mean if God is so powerful then why does he let evil exist, why not just kill the devil.
"Also did you know that black holes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people."
Black holes are just areas of intense gravitational pull, we know they exist because we can see stars around them have their gravitational properties disturbed, immensely.
"Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?"Morality has nothing to do with whether we believe in God or not, human nature is imprinted in every human we are still wired to think for survival at all times.
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
Science doesn't have all the answers, percisley. But to fall back on a divine power to prove these questions is VERY unoriginal in terms of history. Science needs time.
pentomato
06-05-2009, 10:23 PM
It is stupid to believe that god exists, when so many people believe in so many things.
Those that believe in god, anyone, please make your case, just don't come up with random stuff, remember we don't believe, you do, and if you believe in god, just prove your point, saying that the world was created is not enough, I think you need more than that.
I know I have blood in my veins, but do you know that god exists, why?
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
Science doesn't have all the answers, percisley. But to fall back on a divine power to prove these questions is VERY unoriginal in terms of history. Science needs time.
That's not what he's doing, he's saying that everything isn't neatly laid out for us to know, and that modern science does not, as of yet, have the means to quantify every facet of reality. That's all.
We cannot prove or disprove the existance of any god with what facts we currently have, therefore your arguments are pointless.
There's really no difference between "you can't prove there is a God, so there is none", and "you can't prove there isn't a God, so there is one", from a purely objective standpoint. It's just beliefs.
The former, when aggressively argued in favour of, is generally subscribed to by a bunch of smug twats who think they're using moar logic, though, whereas the latter generally features complete loons. And there's enough morons on each side. See above.
Trolling about religion is always a few easy laughs for the unimaginative, though. Bit desperate, but there you go.
Calling somebody an idiot for not believing in God, that makes you a religious intolerant and we have lots of those in this world, not more needed. It is about respecting everybodies believes.
Oh k..i see your point!
It is stupid to believe that god exists, when so many people believe in so many things.
Oops,now i don't see it at all..
pentomato
06-06-2009, 01:02 AM
Oh k..i see your point!
It is stupid to believe that god exists, when so many people believe in so many things.
Oops,now i don't see it at all..
You still didn't convince me or anyone else, that god exists.
Science doesn't have all the answers, percisley. But to fall back on a divine power to prove these questions is VERY unoriginal in terms of history. Science needs time.
That's not what he's doing, he's saying that everything isn't neatly laid out for us to know, and that modern science does not, as of yet, have the means to quantify every facet of reality. That's all.
We cannot prove or disprove the existance of any god with what facts we currently have, therefore your arguments are pointless.
There's really no difference between "you can't prove there is a God, so there is none", and "you can't prove there isn't a God, so there is one", from a purely objective standpoint. It's just beliefs.
The former, when aggressively argued in favour of, is generally subscribed to by a bunch of smug twats who think they're using moar logic, though, whereas the latter generally features complete loons. And there's enough morons on each side. See above.
Trolling about religion is always a few easy laughs for the unimaginative, though. Bit desperate, but there you go.
You should read through my posts again, never did I say I believe that there is no God, I'm preaching doubt where the other side tends to say "I know what happened and here is how it went".
And I really don't think there's anything wrong talking about God as long as it is kept ontological and not hey your religion sucks mine better. Clearly, you haven't been exposed to the array to arguments that can be constructive for both sides.
Yes, because claiming that the burden of proof leans heavily towards one side based on a fairly flimsy argument about some scripture or other, which most certainly does not apply to all religious people, everywhere, does in no way show a bias :rolleyes:
Other than that, you clearly didn't read my post, since I didn't state anywhere that you believe one thing or another.
You do, however, make blanket statements about the religious.
Clearly, you haven't been exposed to the array to arguments that can be constructive for both sides.
When you do find some, feel free to share, btw.
Yes, because claiming that the burden of proof leans heavily towards one side based on a fairly flimsy argument about some scripture or other, which most certainly does not apply to all religious people, everywhere, does in no way show a bias :rolleyes:
Other than that, you clearly didn't read my post, since I didn't state anywhere that you believe one thing or another.
You do, however, make blanket statements about the religious.
Clearly, you haven't been exposed to the array to arguments that can be constructive for both sides.
When you do find some, feel free to share, btw.
On the issue of morality...
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
Light is not a particle and a wave at the same time, however it has properties of particles AND waves.
lamuller
06-06-2009, 01:09 PM
Explain how light can be a particle and a wave at the same time.
Explain how the universe came from nothing.
Science doesn't have all the answers.
I think it was Zeus or medusa, they made it.
Yes, because claiming that the burden of proof leans heavily towards one side based on a fairly flimsy argument about some scripture or other, which most certainly does not apply to all religious people, everywhere, does in no way show a bias :rolleyes:
Other than that, you clearly didn't read my post, since I didn't state anywhere that you believe one thing or another.
You do, however, make blanket statements about the religious.
When you do find some, feel free to share, btw.
On the issue of morality...
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
:blink:
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?
pentomato
06-06-2009, 05:42 PM
On the issue of morality...
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
:blink:
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?
He didn't attack religion in this thread, but you are attacking his ideas.
If you don't have any arguements to prove that god exists, then don't attack who put his existence in doubt.
On the issue of morality...
Can you think, or name a moral action or statement a believer can do that a non-believer cannot?
I dare say you cannot.
Now name a wicked action that only a believer would undertake?
Suicide bombing, circumcision, etc.
:blink:
Circumcision is a fairly common practice even outside religion, but. It's sometimes considered to be more hygienic, for one thing. Female circumcision is generally a bad thing, though. It's, however, not limited to the religious. It can be due to a really bad turn of spousal abuse, among other things, and it's generally about power, religion is just one excuse.
Suicide bombings are less usual than circumcisions, outside of religion, but have been known to happen. Plenty of mentally ill people to go around, don't need religion to blow yourself up, really.
Religion is just a popular excuse to commit atrocities, other known reasons include ethnicity, hay-those-guys-have-more-stuff-than-us, money, mental illness, nationalism, jealousy, fighting terrorism, and so on, and so forth.
People don't need religion to be bad. And anything someone religious can do, can be done by someone who isn't. And you don't need to believe to use religion as an excuse, either.
Religion can also be a reason to not hurt people. Turn the other cheek and all of that. There's plenty of people who behave better, because they have religion.
One has to wonder what any of that has to do with your original argument, though. Or indeed why you think that's an answer to my post.
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
How very, very interesting. Is that why you made a thread attacking religion?
Look at the numbers cheif, the suicide bombing community is exclusively religious. It is because they believe they are ordained by God to carry out their wicked acts and that they have the approval of the supernatural.
Also you asked me to point out an argument that could be constructive, but all you did was try to poke holes in mine rather then find another explanation to the original question of morality.
So, what you're saying here is that your best argument as to why God doesn't exist, or why the burden of proof rests more heavily on the religious (I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish at this point, starting to wonder if you know), is that religious people sometimes do bad stuff?
For your next trick, will you be attempting to prove the world is round by noting the sky is blue?
Also :lol: at "the suicide bombing community".
Also, last I looked, when someone is wrong in a debate or discussion, a good counter argument is pointing out how they are wrong. This may be a problem for you, if you can't actually come up with something that doesn't stand up to be scrutinised, but c'est la vie.
EDit: Just to be clear on this, again, religion is just one excuse to do bad stuff. And whether there is a God or not has no bearing on what a small group of religious people sometimes do. That's like trying to prove there are no countries, by noting that nationalists sometimes do ethnic cleansings.
He didn't attack religion in this thread, but you are attacking his ideas.
If you don't have any arguements to prove that god exists, then don't attack who put his existence in doubt.
I could tell you you're an idiot, again, but we all know this.
What I recommend is that you go back to school, for five years or so, focusing on reading-comprehension. Once you've learned english, I'm sure you'll be able to contribute to the discussion, at least a little bit.
So, what you're saying here is that your best argument as to why God doesn't exist, or why the burden of proof rests more heavily on the religious (I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish at this point, starting to wonder if you know), is that religious people sometimes do bad stuff?
For your next trick, will you be attempting to prove the world is round by noting the sky is blue?
Also :lol: at "the suicide bombing community".
Also, last I looked, when someone is wrong in a debate or discussion, a good counter argument is pointing out how they are wrong. This may be a problem for you, if you can't actually come up with something that doesn't stand up to be scrutinised, but c'est la vie.
EDit: Just to be clear on this, again, religion is just one excuse to do bad stuff. And whether there is a God or not has no bearing on what a small group of religious people sometimes do. That's like trying to prove there are no countries, by noting that nationalists sometimes do ethnic cleansings.
No, the best way to counter an argument is to counter with an idea that is better fitted to the question itself, something you have yet to do...I'm beginning to think I'll have to make your point for you before you will.
So again; Am I to believe that a believer and non-believer are different in terms of morality?
Please, discuss.
On the issue of morality...
I find it insulting that many people who believe in God to question another person's morality or claim they cannot be moral without a supernatural.
No, the best way to counter an argument is to counter with an idea that is better fitted to the question itself, something you have yet to do...I'm beginning to think I'll have to make your point for you before you will.
So again; Am I to believe that a believer and non-believer are different in terms of morality?
You seem to be arguing that any and all claims of morality/immorality are (or can be) made only under religious auspices.
I find the premise a bit iffy.
This is all a bit removed from your original question as well, the formulation of which might have also mentioned Allah, Buddha, et al, in order to give the impression you aren't merely picking on Christians.
Iffy, iffy, iffy.
So, what you're saying here is that your best argument as to why God doesn't exist, or why the burden of proof rests more heavily on the religious (I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish at this point, starting to wonder if you know), is that religious people sometimes do bad stuff?
For your next trick, will you be attempting to prove the world is round by noting the sky is blue?
Also :lol: at "the suicide bombing community".
Also, last I looked, when someone is wrong in a debate or discussion, a good counter argument is pointing out how they are wrong. This may be a problem for you, if you can't actually come up with something that doesn't stand up to be scrutinised, but c'est la vie.
EDit: Just to be clear on this, again, religion is just one excuse to do bad stuff. And whether there is a God or not has no bearing on what a small group of religious people sometimes do. That's like trying to prove there are no countries, by noting that nationalists sometimes do ethnic cleansings.
No, the best way to counter an argument is to counter with an idea that is better fitted to the question itself, something you have yet to do...I'm beginning to think I'll have to make your point for you before you will.
So again; Am I to believe that a believer and non-believer are different in terms of morality?
Please, discuss.
Right. So what you're saying here is that you can't defend your initial position, so you changed focus, and now that I've poked holes in it, that was cheating, so you're just going to ignore that, and keep repeating yourself. Clevar.
---
Barbie made a good case as to why you can't discount the possibility that there is a God. Since you asked someone to make a good case for why there can be a God, the thread should just about have been done then. Everything after that is just chaff, really.
Since you didn't get it, I carried it onwards, mainly by pointing out that your other assertion...
burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith
...is flawed, by saying that each position is equally valid since we don't know anything for certain.
And now you're lost in the woods, going on about morality. Which isn't working out too well for you at that.
Rat Faced
06-09-2009, 09:37 PM
You have that the wrong way around.
A Hypothesis/Theory gains weight by not being proven false, not by being proven correct. It's virtually impossible to prove something is 100% fact.
The Theory of Evolution, for example, is still a Theory.. Granted, It's stood the test of time and is a very Strong Theory, but its still a Theory.
On a level playing field then any "God" does not have to be proven, "his" or "her" or "its" existence is valid until disproven.
The problem I have with all of this is that I don't believe the subject of "God" is valid for any type of Scientific Analysis.
It's the same arguement I use with Creationism in Science Classes.. Its not that I dont think people should be taught Religion, it's just that its not Science... and should therefore be restricted to Religious classes.
Tell me what tools are readily available to you and not me where you can substantiate a God theory to the degree of accuracy evolution and atomic theories....God has not stood the test of time, the list of "Gods" that have been retired are in the thousands; now I'm expected to make a case for this one God that hinges on the fact that I have to believe in it without any sort of reconcile proof? PUHLEASE
Again, wrong.
Name one "God", "Goddess" or "It" that is worshiped now or ever has been in the past, been proven not to exist. There are still Heathens that believe in Oden and Thor etc, still Pagans that believe in the Earth Goddess, and probably still people that worship the Sun, Moon, Fire etc etc etc under varying names and in different ways.
Just because someone does not believe does not invalidate a "God". Just as when Darwin published "origin of the Species" and no-one believed in evolution, did not invalidate his Theory.
Scientific Method requires things to be disproven, not proven.
If I stated I believed "God" was a Fire Elemental, that is valid until disproven.. It doesn't matter what other beliefs I held, they are all valid until disproven. Additionally just because it's proven that one belief is incorrect does not invalidate the entire premis.
A Theory in Science is often shown to be incorrect in part and then built upon without the entire premis failing.
Again, you need to have a level playing field.
In a religion the basic belief is a "God(s)", everything else is trappings.. just look at Christians, Jews and Muslims which all believe in the same God. Not just 3 religions, but these religions also having many factions with differing beliefs.
Even if other parts of a faith are shown to be incorrect, it does not detract from the basic belief. If I could prove something as fundemental as Jesus never having existed, that "God" has followers that does not require Jesus to have lived.
I would not have not disproven the Christian "God", just one of the trappings.
Name one "God", "Goddess" or "It" that is worshiped now or ever has been in the past, been proven not to exist. There are still Heathens that believe in Oden and Thor etc, still Pagans that believe in the Earth Goddess, and probably still people that worship the Sun, Moon, Fire etc etc etc under varying names and in different ways.
He can't, he's been BANNED.
Hahahahaha.
MaxOverlord
06-19-2009, 12:06 AM
Ontologically, prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists, burden of proof I would say lies most heavily on people of faith.
Your statement is incorrect to begin with....the very essence of faith is the lack of proof.
SelfMadeMMAn
06-25-2009, 11:56 PM
You want to know that god exists, READ THE BIBLE! Maybe it is an oversimple answer but you can find all your answers in there. No, I am not here for a religious war but I am a devote christian and I find that any answer I need can be located in the bible. Remember, there are not just 66 volumes or books of the bible and that is it, there are millions
Barbarossa
06-26-2009, 08:39 AM
You want to know that god exists, READ THE BIBLE! Maybe it is an oversimple answer but you can find all your answers in there. No, I am not here for a religious war but I am a devote christian and I find that any answer I need can be located in the bible. Remember, there are not just 66 volumes or books of the bible and that is it, there are millions
Ummm, you know the bible was written by people don't you, it didn't just appear out of thin air... :unsure:
bigboab
06-26-2009, 11:29 AM
You want to know that god exists, READ THE BIBLE! Maybe it is an oversimple answer but you can find all your answers in there. No, I am not here for a religious war but I am a devote christian and I find that any answer I need can be located in the bible. Remember, there are not just 66 volumes or books of the bible and that is it, there are millions
Ummm, you know the bible was written by people don't you, it didn't just appear out of thin air... :unsure:
Prove it.:whistling
Barbarossa
06-26-2009, 11:48 AM
I can't :cry:
You'll just have to trust me. :dry:
bigboab
06-26-2009, 12:40 PM
I can't :cry:
You'll just have to trust me. :dry:
It's OK I have faith in you.:whistling
SelfMadeMMAn
06-26-2009, 08:37 PM
Yep, the bible was written by people, but Me personally, I need nothing else.
What about a decent dictionary, and a few lessons in grammar?
What about a decent dictionary, and a few lessons in grammar?Next thing, he'll be trying to teach his grammar to suck eggs.
ok i'm a guy who has been on both sides i've been atheist and religious and to tell you the truth i can safely say that everyone in here is right.
Why? A lot of people believe in him, her or it blindly, and that's ok you know, because when they do that their brain release Neurotransmitters making them feel great (like there's a higher being supporting them) so it can be explain like a physical reaction, but then again i don't have the knowledge to discredit the bible so i could be totally wrong and he may be in fact exist,But the bottom line is this it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong is about believing (or not believing) in something that it will make you a better person.
P.S. PLEASE DON'T GIVE ME A HARD TIME ABOUT MY GRAMMAR CAUSE ENGLISH IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE.
Rat Faced
06-28-2009, 12:39 PM
We wont.
And SelfMadeMMan is absolutely correct, you can find the answer to everything in the Bible.. you can even get 2 opposite answers to the same question if you look hard enough.
bionx
07-02-2009, 10:38 AM
ontological speaking does not goes more than assumption or imagination or dreaming
also you can create not only one god ontologically ,if you go ontologic you can create lots of gods,devils,angels,spirits,elfs and any other metaphysical & supernatural stuff with your imagination but nothing concrete and real
and religion is human made mental masturbation tool
...religion is human made mental masturbation tool
Oh, oweee.
And you're no doubt claiming an original thought there - not that there was any actual thought involved.
bigboab
07-03-2009, 08:00 AM
ontological speaking does not goes more than assumption or imagination or dreaming
also you can create not only one god ontologically ,if you go ontologic you can create lots of gods,devils,angels,spirits,elfs and any other metaphysical & supernatural stuff with your imagination but nothing concrete and real
and religion is human made mental masturbation tool
Bet you can't wait for the second coming.:'(
Everose
07-11-2009, 04:23 AM
ontological speaking does not goes more than assumption or imagination or dreaming
also you can create not only one god ontologically ,if you go ontologic you can create lots of gods,devils,angels,spirits,elfs and any other metaphysical & supernatural stuff with your imagination but nothing concrete and real
and religion is human made mental masturbation tool
bet you can't wait for the second coming.:'(
lolol
Only one word : DNA .
DNA is now a word.
Why wasn't I informed.
ckrit
07-13-2009, 08:09 AM
Only one word : DNA .
Here's another word: Bicycle pump.
I dunno what the fuck either does to explain anything, but two can play that game.
Barbarossa
07-13-2009, 10:05 AM
Aeroplanes are the proof that God exists, according to Al Murray :yes:
Never gave that much thought.
Sounds right enough.
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
Obv-what?
clocker
07-14-2009, 03:02 AM
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
Obv-what?
Yeah, what?
Everybody knows Google is female.
Barbarossa
07-14-2009, 08:19 AM
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
I was never really into the drugs scene, to be honest. I've never even been to a RAVE FFS!11!!!1!! OMGROFL!!!11!!
ckrit
07-14-2009, 10:44 AM
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
Obviously you got lost somewhere and posted in the wrong thread.
Barbarossa
07-14-2009, 11:26 AM
on the wrong board
Obvoiusly You guys have no ideea about how Dezoxiribonucleic Acid is working in your lame bodies.Ask google; he is fast!
Obviously you got lost somewhere and posted in the wrong thread.
Go search DNA complexity on google then you will understand that evolution is impossible
I didn;t post in the wrong thread...you have a serious lack of knowledge!
.:angry:
clocker
07-14-2009, 12:45 PM
Obviously you got lost somewhere and posted in the wrong thread.
Go search DNA complexity on google then you will understand that evolution is impossible
I didn;t post in the wrong thread...you have a serious lack of knowledge!
.:angry:
Indeed, we all suffer from a serious lack of knowledge, it's a part of the human condition.
To assume that complexity precludes explanation- and is therefore only attributable to a higher power- demonstrates not your lack of knowledge but instead, a lack of intellectual rigor.
Basically, what you say is that "I can't understand this, hence it must be God's work".
I'm currently grappling with the baffling complexity of my Mazda's electrical system but I'm pretty sure God wasn't involved in it's design.
It may be a good argument for the existence of Satan though...
ckrit
07-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Obviously you got lost somewhere and posted in the wrong thread.
Go search DNA complexity on google then you will understand that evolution is impossible
I didn;t post in the wrong thread...you have a serious lack of knowledge!
.:angry:
I wonder if the opposite is true :unsure:
You're so simple - THERE IS NO GOD!½ [Y/N]?
Obv-what?
Yeah, what?
Everybody knows Google is female.
Of course, but back to my question...
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's too large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's to large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
Checkmate.
ckrit
07-16-2009, 06:19 AM
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's too large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
Hay, I think I've been offered a degree from the same place you got that.
The email looked really legit.
Barbarossa
07-16-2009, 10:00 AM
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's too large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
This has an amazing lack of rigour coming from a self-proclaimed scientist :O
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's too large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
Hay, I think I've been offered a degree from the same place you got that.
The email looked really legit.
I really understand the DNA problem since I have a master PHD on genetics of lung cancer...it's too large to develop it here, but the bottom line is that DNA has very little changes form a bacteria to mammels and there is no way this could self- stabilise to that form.It has been created so!
This has an amazing lack of rigour coming from a self-proclaimed scientist :O
There is no point in arguing with you, since you both proved me you have no ideea...
Evolution is a bigger stupidity than creation...
Barbarossa
07-23-2009, 08:58 AM
There is no point in arguing with you, since you both proved me you have no ideea...
Evolution is a bigger stupidity than creation...
There's a house in my street that is proudly flying the flag of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster from the TV aerial.
I can claim to have been touched by his Noodly Appendage. Can you?
LubTheStaringCat
07-23-2009, 09:19 PM
To those who believe proof Isn't necessary, It's called faith.
Maybe some of you have heard of It.
I don't need proof of the existence god, I just believe.
How many retards will argue Black Is white, personally I couldn't care less about anyone else's opinion.
It's the Individual's opinion or belief that matters, not the mad scientists approach.
bigboab
07-23-2009, 10:13 PM
There is no point in arguing with you, since you both proved me you have no ideea...
Evolution is a bigger stupidity than creation...
There's a house in my street that is proudly flying the flag of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster from the TV aerial.
I can claim to have been touched by his Noodly Appendage. Can you?
Too much information.:rolleyes:
It's time you were in bed. It's ten pasta eleven.:wacko:
To those who believe proof Isn't necessary, It's called faith.
Maybe some of you have heard of It.
I don't need proof of the existence god, I just believe.
How many retards will argue Black Is white, personally I couldn't care less about anyone else's opinion.
It's the Individual's opinion or belief that matters, not the mad scientists approach.
Quite right.
God meets secularism on the battlefield of a man's (or woman's) faith.
bigboab
07-24-2009, 06:39 AM
To those who believe proof Isn't necessary, It's called faith.
Maybe some of you have heard of It.
I don't need proof of the existence god, I just believe.
How many retards will argue Black Is white, personally I couldn't care less about anyone else's opinion.
It's the Individual's opinion or belief that matters, not the mad scientists approach.
Quite right.
God meets secularism on the battlefield of a man's (or woman's) faith.
Why doesn't he/she just appear in Times Square, Trafalgar Square, Tiananmen Square etc. I'm sure that would turn the whole World into God fearing subjects.:whistling
Quite right.
God meets secularism on the battlefield of a man's (or woman's) faith.
Why doesn't he/she just appear in Times Square, Trafalgar Square, Tiananmen Square etc. I'm sure that would turn the whole World into God fearing subjects.:whistling
And abrogate the requirement of faith?
What would be the point.
bigboab
07-24-2009, 01:12 PM
Why doesn't he/she just appear in Times Square, Trafalgar Square, Tiananmen Square etc. I'm sure that would turn the whole World into God fearing subjects.:whistling
And abrogate the requirement of faith?
What would be the point.
To prove to the unbelievers that there is a supreme being. The Bible would no longer be a book based on Chinese Whispers and fables from Aesop.
And abrogate the requirement of faith?
What would be the point.
To prove to the unbelievers that there is a supreme being. The Bible would no longer be a book based on Chinese Whispers and fables from Aesop.
"Unbelievers" won't believe in miracles either, Bob.
It's easier to attribute phenomena to science, you see, which takes us right back to...faith.
bigboab
07-24-2009, 08:33 PM
To prove to the unbelievers that there is a supreme being. The Bible would no longer be a book based on Chinese Whispers and fables from Aesop.
"Unbelievers" won't believe in miracles either, Bob.
It's easier to attribute phenomena to science, you see, which takes us right back to...faith.
You accept miracles as the work of God. Why don't you accept disasters as the work of God too? Then again that might negate some of the 'miracles'.
Like the girl who survived the air crash in the indian ocean recently. 'Praise the Lord, it's a miracle'. No mention of the Lords' involvement in the death of the other 153 passengers.:whistling
We will have to agree to differ on religion Kev. However at my age I am keeping my options open.:lol:
Rat Faced
07-24-2009, 10:40 PM
There is very little difference between my DNA and a potatoes..
And yet a strain of Flavobacterium is capable of digesting certain byproducts of nylon manufacture, even though those substances are not known to have existed before the invention of nylon in 1935. The three enzymes the bacteria are using to digest the byproducts are significantly different from any other enzymes produced by other Flavobacterium strains (or any other bacteria for that matter), and not effective on any material other than the manmade nylon byproducts... forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that an example of Evolution in action?
As I said before, even if that is evidence of Evolution, its not evidence regarding whether God(s)(ess)(esses) exist. Just evidence against Creationism, which is a wholley different, if connected subject.
And yet a strain of Flavobacterium is capable of digesting certain byproducts of nylon manufacture, even though those substances are not known to have existed before the invention of nylon in 1935. The three enzymes the bacteria are using to digest the byproducts are significantly different from any other enzymes produced by other Flavobacterium strains (or any other bacteria for that matter), and not effective on any material other than the manmade nylon byproducts... forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that an example of Evolution in action?
As I said before, even if that is evidence of Evolution, its not evidence regarding whether God(s)(ess)(esses) exist. Just evidence against Creationism, which is a wholley different, if connected subject.
I don't recall creationists making an argument that evolution does not occur, just that perhaps Darwin's theories are not sufficiently rigorous to encompass the sum total of the change they presume to explain.
There is very little difference between my DNA and a potatoes..
Well, then.
bigboab
07-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Nothing to do with creationism or evolution. It just proves that RF is a good spud.:whistling
Nothing to do with creationism or evolution. It just proves that RF is a good spud.:whistling
I suppose, since merely knowing him wouldn't be taken as proof, not with this crowd.
I mean, if someone were to require proof I enjoy hanging out here on a Saturday morning, that would be as convincing as anything else I could offer up.
Recursacro
08-17-2009, 03:47 AM
Who created God?
bigboab
08-17-2009, 07:52 AM
Who created God?
man:whistling
Who created God?
How about who created soil and rocks,am sure they evolved too,right?
Barbarossa
08-17-2009, 01:39 PM
Who created God?
How about who created soil and rocks,am sure they evolved too,right?
Geological forces created rocks and a combination of geological and biological forces created soil.
To put it simply. :blink:
bigboab
08-17-2009, 02:08 PM
How about who created soil and rocks,am sure they evolved too,right?
Geological forces created rocks and a combination of geological and biological forces created soil.
To put it simply. :blink:
Thanks.:)
Geological forces created rocks and a combination of geological and biological forces created soil.
who created these geological forces that created rocks and this combination of geological and biological forces that created soil also who created the matter that these forces utilised to create these rocks and soil and am not taking answers that you've picked off google.
Barbarossa
08-17-2009, 04:11 PM
Well this could get quite circular couldn't it, so let's cut to the chase...
As far as you're concerned, anything you can't explain must be attributed to some kind of superbeing, you also can't explain. Correct?
No,i just want people to keep an open mind.People easily forget that even with this theory based on evidence there comes a point when it kinda boils down to faith.
Recursacro
08-17-2009, 05:36 PM
No,i just want people to keep an open mind.People easily forget that even with this theory based on evidence there comes a point when it kinda boils down to faith.
Faith boils down to the assuming rule: You all just look like asses.
Don't believe anything until you know it's true. Then you're never let down. Faith is for weak minded people to use when they need to get their hopes up.
Practices like Buddhism make one look in themselves, not to any fake being. Don't pray for yourself, or anyone else. Instead, do something to make things how you want them: Take initiative.
@bigboab to my previous question:
You've got it!
Recursacro
08-17-2009, 05:46 PM
Who created God?
How about who created soil and rocks,am sure they evolved too,right?
So soil and rocks created God then?
What's your argument?
:P
bigboab
08-17-2009, 06:24 PM
It turns out that human beings have a natural inclination for religious belief, especially during hard times.
New Scientist
All cultures have a belief in a supernatural being. Between Christianity and Islam most of the other beliefs in the Western World were coerced into either Islam or Christianity. The vast continent of South America is a perfect example. How many ancient beliefs, some of which may have helped mankind today, were destroyed.
In short, everyone should be allowed to believe in what they want without due influence or interference from other beliefs.
In short; Wilkins Micawber:lol:
Live and let live
Practices like Buddhism make one look in themselves, not to any fake being. Don't pray for yourself, or anyone else. Instead, do something to make things how you want them: Take initiative.
Could you please allow me to call you an idiot?
How do you know you possess the DNA double helix given that you've never seen yours?
How sure are you that darwin wrote the origin of species if you aren't the one who supplied him with ink?
How sure are you that you were born by a human being and not through pollination of a he and a she avocado?
How sure are you that live tv is live?
Practices like Buddhism make one look in themselves, not to any fake being. Don't pray for yourself, or anyone else. Instead, do something to make things how you want them: Take initiative.
Could you please allow me to call you an idiot?
How do you know you possess the DNA double helix given that you've never seen yours?
How sure are you that darwin wrote the origin of species if you aren't the one who supplied him with ink?
How sure are you ♦that you were born by a human being and not through pollination of a he and a she avocado?
How sure are you that live tv is live?
Wow.
Deep, man.
Makes me question my faith or something.
MaxOverlord
08-18-2009, 02:40 AM
Could you please allow me to call you an idiot?
How do you know you possess the DNA double helix given that you've never seen yours?
How sure are you that darwin wrote the origin of species if you aren't the one who supplied him with ink?
How sure are you ♦that you were born by a human being and not through pollination of a he and a she avocado?
How sure are you that live tv is live?
Wow.
Deep, man.
Makes me question my faith or something.
I was gonna respond but I'm not even sure if I'm typing this..
bigboab
08-18-2009, 07:39 AM
Could you please allow me to call you an idiot?
Sticks and stones etc. (I know you did not mean me but the phrase applies):whistling
How do you know you possess the DNA double helix given that you've never seen yours?
I don't, but I assume as I am like most other people who have proven the existence of DNA that I will be the same.
How sure are you that darwin wrote the origin of species if you aren't the one who supplied him with ink?
Same applies to parts of the Bible, Koran etc. How do you know that that those things happened, when you did not see them happen.
How sure are you that you were born by a human being and not through pollination of a he and a she avocado?
I am definitely sure about this one; I have a dark green colour in the morning. I am pear shaped. I have rough skin and creamy flesh and I came from a family tree.:wacko:
How sure are you that live tv is live?
We never see anything live. Because of the time lapse, due to the speed of light, something could be dead by the time I see it. If the wee Martian jumps up and down you won't see the event till 22 minutes later. Assuming you are looking.
See what you have done. Now I have caught what you have. Go see a shrink or do you want me to make an appoiontment when I make one?:)
Kev@ Irony from an American?:lol:
^^Now why do i smell faith wrapped in phailed sarcasm?
And i was merely responding to recursacro who apparently thinks faith is stupid.Something that in one way or another is in all of us.kapish?
bigboab
08-18-2009, 11:31 AM
^^Now why do i smell faith wrapped in phailed sarcasm?
And i was merely responding to recursacro who apparently thinks faith is stupid.Something that in one way or another is in all of us.kapish?
If you could tell me what phailed sarcasm means then maybe I could reply to your allegations.:)
Ronnie Coleman
08-18-2009, 01:10 PM
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
Before anyone wrote anything more here... Read that quoted statement again.
It is matter of believing, not knowing.
bigboab
08-18-2009, 01:37 PM
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
Before anyone wrote anything more here... Read that quoted statement again.
It is matter of believing, not knowing.
That makes it worse. The fact that people can kill for a belief.
Ronnie Coleman
08-18-2009, 03:45 PM
bigboab, people can kill for many reasons (grief, madness, money, sports...) but that is all different matter. :)
We are talking here, or at least we're trying, about God, religion, faith itself.
Recursacro
08-18-2009, 03:52 PM
The very nature of faith is the concept that proof is not required.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of a God whose existence is proven?
Before anyone wrote anything more here... Read that quoted statement again.
It is matter of believing, not knowing.
A real God, that has been proven, would instill fear in those about to sin, and would give real hope to those looking for it. Faith would not be needed. Then I would worship him.
@Sez for all of those questions:
I believe most of these because they are logical. I don't believe in some supreme being that created everything and was never created because it isn't logical.
Also, because I think that my mother (the lady that I think is my mother) conceived me has nothing to do with using a superior being as a crutch for the weak minded.
I don't go praying for someone else to make something happen for me. Especially when that thing would defeat all odds. (Winning the lottery, for instance)
With Faith, one becomes narrow-minded, and weak. Look at yourself. If someone sincerely told me that the woman I thought was my mother was not mine, I would take them into consideration. I obviously wouldn't believe them at first, but I would accept that it was a possibility. It's logical. I don't have some stubborn faith that locks me into a euphoric state of God-will-save-me.
Why not just wait until something has been proven to live your life by it? Why live your life on something that you're not completely sure is real? Sound like a group of people trying to control others...? :O
bigboab
08-18-2009, 05:13 PM
bigboab, people can kill for many reasons (grief, madness, money, sports...) but that is all different matter. :)
We are talking here, or at least we're trying, about God, religion, faith itself.
I was talking about people killing in the name of their God. Whatever or whoever that God may be. If a God were to appear to me tomorrow I would be a believer. I am just not going to believe in 'Chinese Whispers' because that is all that is available to me at the moment. There have been many people who claimed to be the Son of God. Jesus was just one of many whom a lot of people have latched on to.
@recursacro,i don't really know what side you are on in this as from what i understand,you are saying that you don't believe in faith i.e you don't have it.However,last I checked both of these theories can't go the whole ten yard if they were to be put through a thorough scrutiny and clearly at some point they both shall come down to faith.Now that's that.
If you are an atheist, why do you grimace when drowning a caught mouse? If you are an atheist,why do you capture a fly or spider and let it go outside?
More generally, if you believe that there is no connection between yourself and other creatures, whether that be an "eye in the sky" entity, or some form of collective unconsciousness, or any other "larger than yourself" phenomenon, why is there any harm whatever in killing a creature?
DOA answers:
- There is some selfish rationale to maintaining an eco-balance. If we all killed creatures willy-nilly, there'd be no creatures left.
Answer: nonsense. This is one mouse; one fly.
- You are a product of society/your physiological emotions. It is conditioned into you to shrink from needless death.
Answer: That is simply passing the buck, pretending you are a victim. You should be able to throw off that pressure and believe in - and practice - your own atheist philosophy.
So do all atheists kill creatures as it is convenient? If not, why not?
MaxOverlord
08-18-2009, 10:10 PM
Before anyone wrote anything more here... Read that quoted statement again.
It is matter of believing, not knowing.
A real God, that has been proven, would instill fear in those about to sin, and would give real hope to those looking for it. Faith would not be needed. Then I would worship him.
@Sez for all of those questions:
I believe most of these because they are logical. I don't believe in some supreme being that created everything and was never created because it isn't logical.
Also, because I think that my mother (the lady that I think is my mother) conceived me has nothing to do with using a superior being as a crutch for the weak minded.
I don't go praying for someone else to make something happen for me. Especially when that thing would defeat all odds. (Winning the lottery, for instance)
With Faith, one becomes narrow-minded, and weak. Look at yourself. If someone sincerely told me that the woman I thought was my mother was not mine, I would take them into consideration. I obviously wouldn't believe them at first, but I would accept that it was a possibility. It's logical. I don't have some stubborn faith that locks me into a euphoric state of God-will-save-me.
Why not just wait until something has been proven to live your life by it? Why live your life on something that you're not completely sure is real? Sound like a group of people trying to control others...? :O
I am struck..as I always am...by the simple grammatical use of a capital G in your reference to God....if you don't believe in a God..at least have enough logical sense to know to use a lower-case G. And also...does your mother...errr,excuse me...does the woman you "think" is your mother know that you aren't positive and only "think" she is your "mother".....and also....intelligence is no guarantee against being dead wrong...logically that is.
Recursacro
08-19-2009, 01:21 AM
@Sez:
I suppose you could consider me an atheist. I practice many Buddhist values and beliefs though. I am against killing because I think all animals are equal. I don't kill insects, and I don't like it when people say that they have pets. One can't own another. Because of this, I'm also vegetarian.
I have one question for you, Sez. How has God helped you?
@MaxOverlord:
God is a name. I capitalize it because it's a proper noun, not because I worship the being the name represents. As for the "not knowing who my mother is", that was sarcasm aimed at Sez because of his questions on belief. You'll understand if you read his post.
I haven't much else to say towards you, except for that I ask for you try to contribute to the thread, and not pick apart my so-called logically grammatical errors.
So, the question for all of you:
How has God helped any of you?
Ronnie Coleman
08-19-2009, 02:00 AM
...How has God helped any of you?...
For some, this quiestion may sound naive... But, it is very interesting question. Let's wait for "answers". :)
...How has God helped any of you?...
For some, this quiestion may sound naive... But, it is very interesting question. Let's wait for "answers". :)
Uh-uh - doesn't work that way with faith.
You don't just try faith, or sign up for it like unemployment benefits...and, let's face it - some just aren't cut out for it.
No shame in that.
Just don't hold our faith against us, and we won't have to, um, judge you.
bigboab
08-19-2009, 05:22 AM
For some, this quiestion may sound naive... But, it is very interesting question. Let's wait for "answers". :)
Uh-uh - doesn't work that way with faith.
You don't just try faith, or sign up for it like unemployment benefits...and, let's face it - some just aren't cut out for it.
No shame in that.
Just don't hold our faith against us, and we won't have to, um, judge you.
I think you may have that the wrong way round Kev. Why can't religions leave children alone and let them decide for themselves when they get older? Or is it a case of plant it in the brain and maybe it wont go away?
Why do part of the wedding service say that you have to bring your children up in the faith? That is similar to forcing your kids to follow your own sporting heroes.
I don't think there is any way to resolve this question. Faith does not require proof of the existence. Most non believers demand proof.
p.s. could not sleep. restless legs.:cry::lol:
Recursacro
08-19-2009, 09:00 PM
For some, this quiestion may sound naive... But, it is very interesting question. Let's wait for "answers". :)
Uh-uh - doesn't work that way with faith.
You don't just try faith, or sign up for it like unemployment benefits...and, let's face it - some just aren't cut out for it.
No shame in that.
Just don't hold our faith against us, and we won't have to, um, judge you.
In other words, that maybe easier to answer:
How has having faith been beneficial to you?
Uh-uh - doesn't work that way with faith.
You don't just try faith, or sign up for it like unemployment benefits...and, let's face it - some just aren't cut out for it.
No shame in that.
Just don't hold our faith against us, and we won't have to, um, judge you.
In other words, that maybe easier to answer:
How has having faith been beneficial to you?
That's pretty easy.
It begins with "God grant me the serenity..."
and ends with "...for they know not what they do...".
It has literally kept me from killing people, and trust me when I tell you that I mean what I say.
It is what gives me the patience to deal with some of the things that happen here and keep coming back.
I have never given rein to my constant urge to wring the life from something several times a week, or several times a day, some days.
It keeps my heart from exploding.
I don't know what else to say.
MaxOverlord
08-19-2009, 11:50 PM
[QUOTE=Recursacro;3273729]@Sez:
I suppose you could consider me an atheist. I practice many Buddhist values and beliefs though. I am against killing because I think all animals are equal. I don't kill insects, and I don't like it when people say that they have pets. One can't own another. Because of this, I'm also vegetarian.
I have one question for you, Sez. How has God helped you?
@MaxOverlord:
God is a name. I capitalize it because it's a proper noun, not because I worship the being the name represents. As for the "not knowing who my mother is", that was sarcasm aimed at Sez because of his questions on belief. You'll understand if you read his post.
I haven't much else to say towards you, except for that I ask for you try to contribute to the thread, and not pick apart my so-called logically grammatical errors.
So, the question for all of you:
How has God helped any of you?[/QUOTE
The thing I find interesting is that your sentence structure alone tells me you believe in a higher power. Now some may call it God...others The Way...movie lovers might prefer The Force....I also find it interesting that there are a few Buddhist's or those who practice some of the teachings to be the ones attacking Christianity......but then again..mans primal urge for dominance..which is what you are doing by attacking Christianity..trying to obtain dominance...is a program you can't uninstall...no matter how many days under the Bodhi tree. But hey...I couldn't care less what your validation rituals are..whether they be Communion or tossing tobacco into the air in the presence of an eagle....anyway...I believe you sincere in your interest as to what God has done to help any of us...
bigboab
08-20-2009, 07:09 AM
[QUOTE=Recursacro;3273729]@Sez:
I suppose you could consider me an atheist. I practice many Buddhist values and beliefs though. I am against killing because I think all animals are equal. I don't kill insects, and I don't like it when people say that they have pets. One can't own another. Because of this, I'm also vegetarian.
I have one question for you, Sez. How has God helped you?
@MaxOverlord:
God is a name. I capitalize it because it's a proper noun, not because I worship the being the name represents. As for the "not knowing who my mother is", that was sarcasm aimed at Sez because of his questions on belief. You'll understand if you read his post.
I haven't much else to say towards you, except for that I ask for you try to contribute to the thread, and not pick apart my so-called logically grammatical errors.
So, the question for all of you:
How has God helped any of you?[/QUOTE
The thing I find interesting is that your sentence structure alone tells me you believe in a higher power. Now some may call it God...others The Way...movie lovers might prefer The Force....I also find it interesting that there are a few Buddhist's or those who practice some of the teachings to be the ones attacking Christianity......but then again..mans primal urge for dominance..which is what you are doing by attacking Christianity..trying to obtain dominance...is a program you can't uninstall...no matter how many days under the Bodhi tree. But hey...I couldn't care less what your validation rituals are..whether they be Communion or tossing tobacco into the air in the presence of an eagle....anyway...I believe you sincere in your interest as to what God has done to help any of us...
If there is a God then He/She has helped me a lot in my life. I have had a lot of accidents, illnesses in my lifetime. I have more stitches than a balaclava. I have come through them all in reasonable health for my age.
On the other hand I must also blame God for putting me in those predicaments. He/She must also take the blame. The way disasters and miracles are treated by religious people never ceases to amaze me. I can imagine the conversation between God and Moses as;
'O.K. Mo, You do the disasters and I will do the miracles'.:whistling
bigboab
08-20-2009, 07:21 AM
@recursacro,i don't really know what side you are on in this as from what i understand,you are saying that you don't believe in faith i.e you don't have it.However,last I checked both of these theories can't go the whole ten yard if they were to be put through a thorough scrutiny and clearly at some point they both shall come down to faith.Now that's that.
If you are an atheist, why do you grimace when drowning a caught mouse? If you are an atheist,why do you capture a fly or spider and let it go outside?
More generally, if you believe that there is no connection between yourself and other creatures, whether that be an "eye in the sky" entity, or some form of collective unconsciousness, or any other "larger than yourself" phenomenon, why is there any harm whatever in killing a creature?
DOA answers:
- There is some selfish rationale to maintaining an eco-balance. If we all killed creatures willy-nilly, there'd be no creatures left.
Answer: nonsense. This is one mouse; one fly.
- You are a product of society/your physiological emotions. It is conditioned into you to shrink from needless death.
Answer: That is simply passing the buck, pretending you are a victim. You should be able to throw off that pressure and believe in - and practice - your own atheist philosophy.
So do all atheists kill creatures as it is convenient? If not, why not?
I am sorry(there I go again!) but I take offence at your statement. What you are basically saying is that non-religious people can't be good people. What utter claptrap. I have met many good and bad people on both sides of the 'divide'. How you can associate compassion to other living creatures as the property of religions. Especially as those same religions have allowed their members to slaughter millions of people of other religions in the name of their religion. If all religious people practice what they preached then I think, maybe, you would have a very small chance of being correct.:angry:
Recursacro
08-20-2009, 02:12 PM
[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274224]
If there is a God then He/She has helped me a lot in my life. I have had a lot of accidents, illnesses in my lifetime. I have more stitches than a balaclava. I have come through them all in reasonable health for my age.
On the other hand I must also blame God for putting me in those predicaments. He/She must also take the blame. The way disasters and miracles are treated by religious people never ceases to amaze me. I can imagine the conversation between God and Moses as;
'O.K. Mo, You do the disasters and I will do the miracles'.:whistling
Ok, bigboab, this is the sort of answer that I was expecting.
Let's think about a couple things, please:
Back when I skateboarded (did for about 4 years - got sponsored by the local skate shop) I never broke a bone. Now, I can say that God was there watching over me, and made it so that even though I ripped up my back so it was raw, I never broke a bone.
OR
I can look at it from a more secular point of view and acknowledge that I drink 32 oz. of milk a day, and I eat extremely well. I also have very fast reflexes, and I know how to fall. (there's a technique)
You say you've been sick... who hasn't? Stitches are basically routine, and I've had tons of them. I had a half inch deep gash in my chin (from skating) and it healed really well. I even went snowboarding the next day.
I think what you are saying, in logical terms, is that you have a good immune system. Now, if I say this, you're probably going to think to yourself: "Well, thank you, Lord. I appreciate the good immune system."
Do you think it has anything to do with genetics and inheritance?
Moreover, don't blame God for putting you into those predicaments. Take the blame yourself. It's your fault. Say it to yourself: "It was my fault that I got sick and had so many stitches. I should be more careful, and I should pay more attention to how I eat and my vitamin intake. I'm going to go wash my hands!"
Now, please don't take offence to that up there. I'm just trying to take everything and put it into a more secular view, so you can look at it from there.
I'd also like to thank you for indirectly defending me against Sez's assumptions. Thanks.
bigboab
08-20-2009, 06:43 PM
[QUOTE=bigboab;3274443]
Ok, bigboab, this is the sort of answer that I was expecting.
Let's think about a couple things, please:
Back when I skateboarded (did for about 4 years - got sponsored by the local skate shop) I never broke a bone. Now, I can say that God was there watching over me, and made it so that even though I ripped up my back so it was raw, I never broke a bone.
OR
I can look at it from a more secular point of view and acknowledge that I drink 32 oz. of milk a day, and I eat extremely well. I also have very fast reflexes, and I know how to fall. (there's a technique)
You say you've been sick... who hasn't? Stitches are basically routine, and I've had tons of them. I had a half inch deep gash in my chin (from skating) and it healed really well. I even went snowboarding the next day.
I think what you are saying, in logical terms, is that you have a good immune system. Now, if I say this, you're probably going to think to yourself: "Well, thank you, Lord. I appreciate the good immune system."
Do you think it has anything to do with genetics and inheritance?
Moreover, don't blame God for putting you into those predicaments. Take the blame yourself. It's your fault. Say it to yourself: "It was my fault that I got sick and had so many stitches. I should be more careful, and I should pay more attention to how I eat and my vitamin intake. I'm going to go wash my hands!"
Now, please don't take offence to that up there. I'm just trying to take everything and put it into a more secular view, so you can look at it from there.
I'd also like to thank you for indirectly defending me against Sez's assumptions. Thanks.
What is the point of a God that can't take the blame for things that go wrong. " Thank you Lord for allowing my son/daughter to be blown up, burned, buried alive etc on 9/11. It was their fault, they should not have gone to work that day.
p.s. You might have given them a warning.
I am sorry but you have your head buried in the sand if you can't see, for example, that people killed in natural disasters are not to blame in any way. I could go on and on but it would be pointless.
MaxOverlord
08-20-2009, 11:09 PM
[QUOTE=Recursacro;3274572]
What is the point of a God that can't take the blame for things that go wrong. " Thank you Lord for allowing my son/daughter to be blown up, burned, buried alive etc on 9/11. It was their fault, they should not have gone to work that day.
p.s. You might have given them a warning.
I am sorry but you have your head buried in the sand if you can't see, for example, that people killed in natural disasters are not to blame in any way. I could go on and on but it would be pointless.
...i don't assume that God is to take the blame for my own actions..I would say that is more the attitude of a child...only I'm not sure that a child..shall we say ages 3 thru 6? has the capacity to reason a God in their mind...mind meaning consciousness. i know people who seem to only wanna credit God with the bad things in life...thus negating any responsibility toward the individual. "free will" or not...ultimately it's you and you alone who act...I don't necessarily believe God to be too involved in the everyday actions of Man...let alone subjecting He into minute details of our ritualistic lives. I prefer a Watcher...if you will...a very slight nudge here-not there. Patience and Grace....yielding always to the infinite Truth. If there is a God...and I don't know with any amount of certainty that there is...I would hope just a little bit that I would get some credit for my own ability to decide. I've been given a consciousness thru the apple...let me use it.
bigboab
08-21-2009, 07:35 AM
...i don't assume that God is to take the blame for my own actions..I would say that is more the attitude of a child...only I'm not sure that a child..shall we say ages 3 thru 6? has the capacity to reason a God in their mind...mind meaning consciousness. i know people who seem to only wanna credit God with the bad things in life...thus negating any responsibility toward the individual. "free will" or not...ultimately it's you and you alone who act...I don't necessarily believe God to be too involved in the everyday actions of Man...let alone subjecting He into minute details of our ritualistic lives. I prefer a Watcher...if you will...a very slight nudge here-not there. Patience and Grace....yielding always to the infinite Truth. If there is a God...and I don't know with any amount of certainty that there is...I would hope just a little bit that I would get some credit for my own ability to decide. I've been given a consciousness thru the apple...let me use it.
You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;
[QUOTE]Buddha taught people how to realize enlightenment for themselves. He taught that awakening comes through one's own direct experience, not through beliefs and dogmas.
My thoughts exactly.:)
I think I will become a Buddhist. I have the fugure for it.:lol:
MaxOverlord
08-21-2009, 05:31 PM
You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;
[QUOTE]Buddha taught people how to realize enlightenment for themselves. He taught that awakening comes through one's own direct experience, not through beliefs and dogmas.
My thoughts exactly.:)
I think I will become a Buddhist. I have the fugure for it.:lol:
I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.
bigboab
08-21-2009, 06:44 PM
[QUOTE=bigboab;3274928][QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274808]
You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;
I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.
That would be difficult to do considering the fragmentation of your posts.:)
I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?
MaxOverlord
08-21-2009, 10:30 PM
[QUOTE=bigboab;3274928][QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3274808]
You are talking more like a Buddhist that a Christian;
I'm curious bb...how does a Christian talk? I believe I mentioned the concepts of Grace as well as a reference to the apple which Eve bit. I acknowledge Truth,which is a reference to Jesus..."I am the way,the truth,and the life." I imagined His play within my own daily life..however minimal. I believe you are hearing and or picking trigger words from my sentences....next time try hearing what I'm saying..not listening for what you want to hear me say.
That would be difficult to do considering the fragmentation of your posts.:)
I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?
bigboab
08-22-2009, 06:11 AM
[QUOTE=MaxOverlord;3275300][QUOTE=bigboab;3275189]You'll convert me yet. I think I have just had confirmation. Ontologically speaking.:)
I dont see any point in discussing religion. difficult questions never get answered. A bit like politics.
I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?
How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?
Recursacro
08-22-2009, 04:06 PM
I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?
How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc(mollusk, Ive founde u cant right verrie good) ;) ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?
To answer someone's question from the previous page as to how a Christian talks: Like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron. See the post above me, and all other posts from Sez.
Sez,
You did the same damn thing with my question. Why don't you just try to answer the questions we ask you? I asked who created God. You asked who created soil and dirt. That's not the point!
Here,
BigBoab asks a question, and you steer away from providing an answer. Do you not like to think that your mind-control group has flawed their story? Is there something in there that doesn't make sense? Oh, just revert to Faith, everything'll be just fine if we just let someone else run our lives. Hell, why not be Communist. We don't need to pick our jobs either.
Another point:
You bring up DNA quite often. Yup, ok, God's a great mathematician, and he worked out all of it. Praise the Lord! That's crap. We evolved. We are complex beings and some things have yet to be explained, but no one being created us and all of our world. Which, by the way, why would God create other solar systems if he only care about us? He just got bored? The DNA isn't a result of haphazard evolution, it's a result of our bodies making a code from a very primitive one, to a complex one that can support ourselves over time.
Moving on...
Do I believe the fish of today are the people of tomorrow? No...
We are the people of tomorrow, I'm sure. Well, as long as there is land to walk on. Fish wouldn't need to evolve because they still have food in the water. Why would they change to come on land if it's over populated with people like you?
Now, as for your second to last statement. Wow. Does that not seem like a group of people trying to take control of others? The winning side? Is this a war? Is it a game? ;) So God favors your side to anyone else's, right? I was watching a movie the other day, and some vampire was going to die. He asked if God would let him in. (Godric, his name was, I think) She said God was forgiving, and would let anyone in.... What's the point in Hell then?
Oh, and Sez, the majority of people may be religious, but the majority of religious people don't know the square root of 144. Do you?
My views on homosexuality:
Anyone has the right to have the sexuality they prefer. As long as it abides by the laws of the state (not having sex with kids and such). I also support same-sex marriage 100%.
bigboab
08-22-2009, 04:29 PM
I will ask the next question once again
Who was the first person to be in contact with your god, where and how and witnesses present?
How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?
What the hell has that to do with this thread.:angry: I believe in live and let live within the moral and social structure of the country. I definitely don't go round doors or stand in the street peddling religion. Does the majority of the world attend church? I don't think so.
Show me a single piece of non-circumstantial evidence disprove the existence of God, and then I will make my decision on this.
The theory of evolution is just that.. you know just a theory. Scientists themselves have argued against this theory, that it violates natural laws, such as the second law on thermodynamics and so on.
God is a spiritual being, not a physical one.You obviously can't use natural laws to prove a spiritual being.You use natural laws to prove physical objects and God is above these laws.Since He created everything, He can bend natural laws at His will..which account for events, situations, miracles, etc. which science cannot explain.
We see God's creation all around us. His creation is a manifestation and proof that there must be someone responsible for all these things. In science class, we studied about the universal physical constants like gravitational constant. These constants are so perfect that if it's a little lower or higher, our world will be in chaos. What's the probability that accident and randomity has brought about our orderly world? I won't leave all the explanation to "chance". The perfect explanation for everything is the existence of God. :yes:
if you are the type that believes your computer would have self upgraded its OS from windows 98 to windows 7 then my bad but otherwise go read on the DNA double helix then come and explain as to how chaos could have come up with such order.
The truth is God has put a God-shaped hole in the heart of every human being.His plan is for man to find and worship Him. History shows that mankind has acknowledged an all-powerful supernatural being since time immemorial. You can find ancient people worshipping the moon, sun, stars, calf, snakes, their ancestors, or any other thing. Nobody taught them about God. Their natural instinct told them there is someone great out there...and that someone is God. Now, it's up to the individual to acknowledge or reject the existence of God,its a faith thing you aren't supposed to be swayed by evidence.
Also did you know that blackholes, as accepted as they are by scientists as being fact are yet to be proven by solid evidence?just goes to show how naive you are to put your trust in such people.
If you didn't know,in essence you are saying you are just meat as you have no soul.
Plus i think it should tell you something that everything on this planet has an opposite(all explained in less than 1000 words in genesis).
Like how do you explain evil and good.(your sushi and mollusc ancestors know something?)I mean these two forces ought to have come from somewhere,right?and please don't tell me you think that evil and good are also a myth :P
I want to call you an idiot,but i'll wait and see if you have any strong evidence to disprove the existence of God.
imo i think people like you are just guys who have a problem with religious folks.
Hey, you stole my ideeas :ermm:
To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.
I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
Assuming you are familiar with coding,you should know that for there to be a code there MUST be somebody to write it up.You should also understand that code tends to be unique and that's why you hear people getting sued for stealing somebody else's code,so here we see that code is unique and that it doesn't just appear,somebody has to somehow write it up.
Now,unlike pattern(which easily results from randomness)code happens to carry information.Its the reason why the smart fellow wrote it in the first place(Bill gates and windows).
Now this is where it gets interesting.Your DNA so happens to be so fucking unique to you that it can easily get you to prison if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law.Now that's that.
Another thing about DNA is the fact that it carries information.Genetic information to be specific.Something that a snowflake doesn't(a product of randomness).
So basically DNA is a code and a snowflake is a pattern and as we've seen(according to the science) patterns happen but codes are created.Now put all your ignorance aside and pretend that you still have some brain function left.Doesn't it make more sense to believe that an intelligent designer ought to have written this code that we call DNA than to go against the science and say because we are afraid of the unknown and how this intelligent designer came into being we are going to ignore the science and say for this one,the code just happened(mind you not once but 1 billion+ times)..
Am guessing that duke was the last place you thought of applying when you were deciding on college(assuming you've even been as far).
Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.
I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
Oh, we believers aren't noted for our objectivity.
Anyway, I think you've tumbled to the way I prefer to view the issues of Intelligent design (which any sincerely objective person ought also to tell you is not the same thing as Creationism) and science proper; that is to say purely nothing in either of them positively precludes any aspect of the other, especially given the relative natures of objectivism, faith, or science.
You can drive trucks through certain aspects of religious argument, I suppose.
The case for Intelligent design makes very nice use of logic, without being overly, uh...creative, and is almost unassailable from any point of reason.
Science....well...science is supposed to be science, and hence unassailable.
In this case, however, I think perhaps too much of the science of our origins has been left to Mr. Darwin, whose theory(s) are a target-rich environment for reasonable people driving trucks while they debate.
To those of us who've gotten beyond the stage of argument, it seems the two could peacefully co-exist if the sides were not so compelled purely by ideology.
That's what I think.
clocker
08-23-2009, 03:11 AM
I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
So, anyone who disagrees with this leap of faith is by definition, "not objective" and therefore, wrong.
Why don't you take off the kid gloves and simply say that anyone who fails to grasp your belief is an idiot since in your own quasi-intellectual way, that's exactly what you imply.
It also seems to me that your comparison of the snowflake to DNA is oddly fallacious.
What exactly is the difference between a snowflake and a strand of DNA that leads you to qualify the former as a random event and the latter as divinely written code?
Doesn't the snowflake- each completely unique as far as we know- contain all the information of its origins and the physical forces that shaped its form, just like DNA?
In other words, isn't it as full of information as DNA?
Why is the information encoded into a snowflake of less import than the other example?
For that matter, why is such a trivial object- the lone snowflake- completely unique?
I don't see how you can present yourself as "objective" when every experiment you'd perform and every conclusion you'd reach is colored by the expectation that the hand of your god is behind all observable fact and science is merely a tool you use to expose the ineffable.
You ride the science horse to the point where an explanation isn't obvious and then dismount to begin worshiping the being you've already decided must exist.
This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?
Your response- your onlyresponse- would be, "You can't, but I believe anyway".
End of discussion and the rest is nonsense.
bigboab
08-23-2009, 05:14 AM
To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.
I keep bringing up DNA coz anybody who's objective will tell you that it clearly attests of an intelligent designer and does so in a way that is in line with science.
Assuming you are familiar with coding,you should know that for there to be a code there MUST be somebody to write it up.You should also understand that code tends to be unique and that's why you hear people getting sued for stealing somebody else's code,so here we see that code is unique and that it doesn't just appear,somebody has to somehow write it up.
Now,unlike pattern(which easily results from randomness)code happens to carry information.Its the reason why the smart fellow wrote it in the first place(Bill gates and windows).
Now this is where it gets interesting.Your DNA so happens to be so fucking unique to you that it can easily get you to prison if you find yourself on the wrong side of the law.Now that's that.
Another thing about DNA is the fact that it carries information.Genetic information to be specific.Something that a snowflake doesn't(a product of randomness).
So basically DNA is a code and a snowflake is a pattern and as we've seen(according to the science) patterns happen but codes are created.Now put all your ignorance aside and pretend that you still have some brain function left.Doesn't it make more sense to believe that an intelligent designer ought to have written this code that we call DNA than to go against the science and say because we are afraid of the unknown and how this intelligent designer came into being we are going to ignore the science and say for this one,the code just happened(mind you not once but 1 billion+ times)..
Am guessing that duke was the last place you thought of applying when you were deciding on college(assuming you've even been as far).
Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.
You should be a politician. You evade questions by answering with a question. Don't think because you are in the majority that you are correct. The Nazis were in the majority. The gas chambers in Germany were operated so called Christians trying to eradicate the people who 'invented' their God.
Religion would be fantastic if the followers stick to the moral guidelines of their particular religion.
What exactly is the difference between a snowflake and a strand of DNA that leads you to qualify the former as a random event and the latter as divinely written code?
Doesn't the snowflake- each completely unique as far as we know- contain all the information of its origins and the physical forces that shaped its form, just like DNA?
A snowflake doesn't have any coded information,it symbolically represents nothing(no plan, no idea and no instructions) other than itself, and because there is no encoding/decoding mechanism and no system of symbols like in DNA it doesn't qualify as code.Its that simple.
You sound like you are attacking me but i don't think am suprised,you lay the burden of proof on us,you think we are idiots coz of our faith and when we try to assert the possibility of the existence of this intelligent designer through acceptable science,your ignorance takes the best of you and you resort to shit talk.That to me implies that indeed you know its possible that this ID exists only that you are not contented with such an arrangement.
If your faith tells you to believe in darwin then fine,that I have no problem with coz you obviously have your own reasons as to why you think he has all the answers.Just that as you practice your darwinism avoid slandering other faiths thinking that you know better.
Even with his smarts,Einstein chose to refrain from these silly attacks and simply had it that "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
clocker
08-23-2009, 12:43 PM
A snowflake doesn't have any coded information,it symbolically represents nothing(no plan, no idea and no instructions) other than itself, and because there is no encoding/decoding mechanism and no system of symbols like in DNA it doesn't qualify as code.Its that simple.
For someone who accepts the existence of a higher power, a power which by definition, is unknowable, you certainly are sure about what the ID considers to be important and what is not. This sense of smugness and entitlement is one of the things I dislike most in advocates such as yourself.
You sound like you are attacking me but i don't think am suprised,you lay the burden of proof on us,you think we are idiots coz of our faith and when we try to assert the possibility of the existence of this intelligent designer through acceptable science,your ignorance takes the best of you and you resort to shit talk.That to me implies that indeed you know its possible that this ID exists only that you are not contented with such an arrangement.
I hardly think of my post as an "attack", more of a prod and I don't recall asking for proof of anything. In fact, I recall offering you the out of claiming that a true believer didn't require proof of anything, the belief itself being all that was necessary or possible.
Of course, being an ignorant, shit-talking malcontent, I could have gotten that mixed up.
If your faith tells you to believe in darwin then fine,that I have no problem with coz you obviously have your own reasons as to why you think he has all the answers.Just that as you practice your darwinism avoid slandering other faiths thinking that you know better.
OK, now you're just getting silly.
Science doesn't require, nor does it rely, on faith and "darwinism" (whatever the hell that is) is not a religion.
Darwin himself never claimed to have "all the answers", that remains the province of the more enlightened, such as yourself.
After all, you know that snowflakes are random, unimportant things.
Even with his smarts,Einstein chose to refrain from these silly attacks and simply had it that "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"
Good for Albert.
You know, he also said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former".
I have an idea...let's frame this whole debate in Albert Einstein quotes...
bigboab
08-23-2009, 01:02 PM
Sez. Do you think you could do the honour of quoting(Including the poster) or naming the member you are referring to. I am confused, maybe an old age thingy. I honestly don't know who you are accusing of attacking you. If you don't do this the previous poster will assume you are referring to them and answer accordingly. Which in some cases confuses me even more.
Recursacro
08-23-2009, 02:17 PM
bigboab,
I believe he's talking to me. I'm the asshole that disgusts him, not you. :)
clocker,
I'm glad to have someone on my side in this thread, but how can you just let them choose what they want? Doesn't the ignorance just make your toes curl? I mean, I believe in people making their own choices, but when someone actually seems educated and their still believing what they were taught in Sunday school? :ermm:
To the quasi-intellect,this is not spelling bee i advise you to go back to school instead of blowing the horn on how uncultivated you are with your redundant grammar corrections.Those of us who went through conventional education will tell you that mollusc and mollusk is one and the same thing.So unless you have autism i'd suggest you go easy on these retarded posts.
....
Its people like you who attend some liberal arts college and somehow think that they know it all coz they are a philosophy major.
I've seen alot assholes like you and to tell you the truth you really disgust me.
You can't keep to your own pagan ways that you just have to insult and make fun of those who are trying to live by what they believe in.
Sez,
This has apparently just turned into some grade school verbal fight. Really mature. As for the "redundant grammar corrections", let's just say I've autism so I may continue...
The majority of kids under the age of 13 think that Santa Claus is real. He must be then, eh? He leaves a footprint in the fireplace and eats the cookies we leave for him... Or wait? Did someone else put the footprint there, and someone else eat the cookie? See the correlation between this and religion? People want you to believe something, so they plant all of this fake evidence, and get you when you're young so you'll believe it.
Think of this:
If someone was raised until age 20 without any hint at God at all. No religious references or anything. Then, when they turned 20, they were told that there might be a creator, and that he made all of us. Now, Larry (this guy's arbitrarily chosen name) is a left-brained person, being dominantly logical. When he hears about God, he's not going to think it makes sense at all. It's just not logical. He wasn't raised with that faith, and he wasn't trained to be obedient to the all and powerful God. *scoff*
Take this into consideration now, if you will:
A child is raised in a city with his parents and siblings. They are drug addicts and alcoholics, and don't believe in God. Yet they want their kids to, so they send them to Sunday school. Do you think that when the kids learn something, and then go home to their fighting parents that they will retain the absence of God, or his omni-present grace?
Since it's going to be the former (you agree so far, eh?), that makes him one of the assholes that you are disgusted by, right? He is now against God, since he has been told how God helps, then has gone home to drunk parents that beat him. He's now bruised, and an asshole. :huh:
Now, as for the snowflake and DNA.... DNA follows a pattern, a guideline. When someone is created, (by their mother, not God) we have a clue what the DNA will look like. How is that different from a snowflake? Does not a snowflake follow a guideline, and then the rest of it's description is taken from where it was created. (talking about inheritance) DNA is just as random as a snowflake, hence everyone is not the same, but they are close (where they guidelines come in).
To answer your question about it making sense for someone to write the code: No.
The code evolved from something very simple to what it is now. And it changed from animal to animal depending on the location and potential of intelligence.
Lastly, I'm not going for philosophy; I'm attending a university as a Computer Science major, with a minor in Psychology.
This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?
I think you'll find that the first post in this thread says something else.
This thread is stupid and needs to die, though.
clocker
08-23-2009, 02:55 PM
This entire thread could be boiled down to two posts.
The first would posit the question "How do you prove the existence of god"?
I think you'll find that the first post in this thread says something else.
This thread is stupid and needs to die, though.
prove or at least make a case that GOD can exists
:blink:
Make a case that God can exist != How do you prove the existence of God.
MaxOverlord
08-23-2009, 04:02 PM
How about who was the first person to be in contact with your mollusc(mollusk, Ive founde u cant right verrie good) ;) ancestors and were there any witnesses when you changed from nothing to some chemical soup to fish and finally to the super complex being that you are today.Do you really believe that you are relatives with fish or the fish of today for that matter are the human beings of tomorrow?
Do you know how mathematically harmonious your DNA double helix is to just have been as a result of randomness?
Either you are blaming God for something that happened to you or you are just ignorant(regardless of the level of your education).Be an atheist fine! just don't be attacking other people's beliefs like that.
Numbers don't lie and you clearly are in the minority,the majority of the world believes in the existence of a higher power and am glad am on the winning side.
Just out of curiosity,whats your take on homosexuality?
To answer someone's question from the previous page as to how a Christian talks: Like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron. See the post above me, and all other posts from Sez.
Sez,
You did the same damn thing with my question. Why don't you just try to answer the questions we ask you? I asked who created God. You asked who created soil and dirt. That's not the point!
Here,
BigBoab asks a question, and you steer away from providing an answer. Do you not like to think that your mind-control group has flawed their story? Is there something in there that doesn't make sense? Oh, just revert to Faith, everything'll be just fine if we just let someone else run our lives. Hell, why not be Communist. We don't need to pick our jobs either.
Another point:
You bring up DNA quite often. Yup, ok, God's a great mathematician, and he worked out all of it. Praise the Lord! That's crap. We evolved. We are complex beings and some things have yet to be explained, but no one being created us and all of our world. Which, by the way, why would God create other solar systems if he only care about us? He just got bored? The DNA isn't a result of haphazard evolution, it's a result of our bodies making a code from a very primitive one, to a complex one that can support ourselves over time.
Moving on...
Do I believe the fish of today are the people of tomorrow? No...
We are the people of tomorrow, I'm sure. Well, as long as there is land to walk on. Fish wouldn't need to evolve because they still have food in the water. Why would they change to come on land if it's over populated with people like you?
Now, as for your second to last statement. Wow. Does that not seem like a group of people trying to take control of others? The winning side? Is this a war? Is it a game? ;) So God favors your side to anyone else's, right? I was watching a movie the other day, and some vampire was going to die. He asked if God would let him in. (Godric, his name was, I think) She said God was forgiving, and would let anyone in.... What's the point in Hell then?
Oh, and Sez, the majority of people may be religious, but the majority of religious people don't know the square root of 144. Do you?
My views on homosexuality:
Anyone has the right to have the sexuality they prefer. As long as it abides by the laws of the state (not having sex with kids and such). I also support same-sex marriage 100%.
This is hilarious! You sound like a narrow-minded and ignorant moron with your very first response....bravo! Give me more,please.
Am starting to think that the problem is with our education systems.I just wish people read beyond what they were offered by their curriculars.Darwin's theory of evolution is being hammered by ID that most have now reduced it to a theory explaining basic natural selection.
Check this out then share your thoughts Unlocking The Mystery Of Life: Introduction on Intelligent Design Theory | (http://www.mytvblog.org/?p=388)
And from the comments its interesting to note how jittery these uneducated darwin loons can get.Near the end you actually hear that while this theory may have religious implications,it does not necessarily have religion as a premise.
bigboab
03-02-2010, 10:37 PM
I think this debate would have been more succinct if various religions had not destroyed all the books/transcripts that disagreed with their dogma.
What possible reason could they have for doing that?
I think this debate would have been more succinct if various religions had not destroyed all the books/transcripts that disagreed with their dogma.
What possible reason could they have for doing that?
See what you did there?
anoneemuse
03-08-2010, 09:56 AM
if god is not perfect , god is not god
so what is my problem ? again or yours ?
bigboab
03-08-2010, 10:20 PM
It is impossible to think of an absolutely perfect Being as lacking anything. If an absolutely perfect Being did not exist, then it would lack existence. Therefore, as it is clear that an absolutely perfect Being cannot lack existence, the Being must exist.:wacko:
Putting Descartes before the horse.:whistling
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