Americans Roll Over On Command

[sharedholder]

A series of articles published by WorldNetDaily.com this week have proven, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Americans will soon have to endure more of the kind of statism normally reserved for despotic regimes in the Third World. That outrage will come in the form of a national ID card.

The crux of the articles is about granting driver's licenses to illegal aliens, which - according to one immigration-reform group - is occurring in many more states than previously believed. Though driver's licensing officials in some of those states vehemently deny illegals are beating their systems, several residents of these same states have contacted WND to say otherwise. In some instances, readers say they have actually witnessed the licensing of illegals.

Indeed, says the Federation for American Immigration Reform, some 15 states make it very easy for illegals to obtain driver's licenses, though only one - California - has actually passed legislation making it legal for illegal aliens to apply for and receive driver's licenses (though there is an effort underway there to have the law repealed).

So what, you may ask. What does it matter if illegal aliens get a driver's license? After all, according to immigrant-rights groups and supporting politicians, illegals are here in the U.S. and are driving already. Licensing them may actually make roads safer because the illegal aliens will have to take and pass driver's exams, buy auto insurance and so forth.

Several things are wrong with this "logic," the least of which is whether or not illegals will buy auto insurance (most don't now and experts say they won't after they get a license, either).

First, there is a new federal law on the books that takes effect Jan. 1. Passed in the wake of the 2000 presidential recount circus/debacle, the "Help America Vote Act" sets national election standards, one of which is verifying the identity of voters to make sure they can legally participate in our country's elections. One of the qualifying documents is - you guessed it - a driver's license. Yet, if illegals are being given licenses - legally - what's to stop them from voting? Federal Election Commission officials gave only weak assurances the proper "safeguards" were in place to prevent this, but anyone who is familiar with bureaucracy knows better.

That in and of itself is a major problem. Most illegals come from countries whose system of government is different - read less liberty-prone - than ours. Are Americans ready for more gun control? Warrantless searches and seizures? Fewer private-property rights? These same countries are much more socialist-minded as well; how much larger will the federal budget grow if illegals are allowed to vote themselves more benefits? Are Americans ready to pay the higher tax burdens that will be required to finance this new surge in largess?

Also, Americans who travel abroad say driver's licenses, not passports or other documents, are increasingly being requested by foreign officials to verify identification. If illegal aliens possess a driver's license, then there really is no way to find out that person's legitimate country of origin. How much harder will that make it for U.S. and international authorities to track terrorists who were smuggled into California ñ or another state ñ long enough to apply for, and receive, a legitimate driver's license?

"I just took a trip all across the Caribbean and South America and nobody wanted to see a passport ... just my drivers license," a friend told me. "Nobody in Martinique, Barbados or Aruba wanted to see jack. I only needed a driver's license and ship credit card to get on or off."

What's the obvious answer? "Some statist at Homeland Security will come up with a national ID card," my friend says. I think he's right.

It's not like the idea hasn't already come up. Plans to use driver's licenses as de facto national ID cards were first introduced during the Clinton administration. The idea resurfaced during the Bush administration following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

The next logical step, of course, will be a national computerized database of the information contained on the de facto national ID cards, and - well, you get the picture.

All because political correctness has made our leaders more afraid of being mislabeled as racists than concerned about defending our nation's sovereign borders. For their cowardice, we the people will have to sacrifice more of our Constitution.

In the end, Americans still won't be safe. And illegal immigration will continue to flourish.

SOURCE (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34897)

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

Hey if you don&#39;t like it here, move&#33; Oh wait, you don&#39;t live here. Never mind then. <_<

[J'Pol]

I post from the UK

I have absolutely no problem in everyone being issued with a National ID. (ID Card is a bit of a tautology, Identification Document Card doesn&#39;t really scan particularly well). I would however prefer it if it were impossible to create a fake, for obvious reasons.

Indeed if the Government wish to issue me with and ID, take and hold records of my fingerprints and have a DNA sample I have no problem with this. If these steps reduce crime (particularly violent crime) and assist in identifying criminals then it is a good thing.

[sharedholder]

Originally posted by LeGoMyFnLeg@5 October 2003 - 13:07
Hey if you don&#39;t like it here, move&#33; Oh wait, you don&#39;t live here. Never mind then. <_<
If you are talking to me ,you are wrong.I have no opinion about the articles i posted here in the forum.

[FuNkY CaPrIcOrN]

;) I do not see no Problem with this.Big deal.....another Card to put in my Wallet.

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

Originally posted by sharedholder+5 October 2003 - 13:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sharedholder @ 5 October 2003 - 13:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LeGoMyFnLeg@5 October 2003 - 13:07
Hey if you don&#39;t like it here, move&#33; Oh wait, you don&#39;t live here. Never mind then. <_<
If you are talking to me ,you are wrong.I have no opinion about the articles i posted here in the forum. [/b][/quote]
Then why do you see the need to flavour your topic with a title like this?

Americans Roll Over On Command, The Coming National ID Card

If I were to post articles with a heading of "those italian morons again" or "look what those lame romanians are up to now" I think you&#39;d take a bit of offense. No matter if those words were mine or someone elses, it doesn&#39;t bode well for the peer to peer community or the forum either. Look around you at what is left of the once proud k-lite forum. Hell, you&#39;ve chased them all away.
Still proud yes, but near empty.

[sharedholder]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Like i said i have no opinions. :lol: :lol: :lol: Just copy and paste. :lol: :lol:


Then why do you see the need to flavour your topic with a title like this?

QUOTE&nbsp;
Americans Roll Over On Command, The Coming National ID Card


LOOK HERE (http://news.softnews.ro/news/2/2003/October/5054.shtml)

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

No, you look here.
No matter if those words were mine or someone elses, it doesn&#39;t bode well for the peer to peer community or the forum either.

What don&#39;t you understand about this?

[sharedholder]

I understand perfectly ,but that is your opinion,right?I repeat i don&#39;t have any opinion about this article or another,and if you think is better to stop me to copy and paste ,just tell me. :D

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

Do what you like but try to think globally when you do it. I might show contempt for an individual on occasion but treating an entire nation with contempt will surely lead to a bitter end.

[Billy_Dean]

Hey, what&#39;s going on here for fuck sake?

Shareholder posts an article by a third person, he gives the source, uses the same title and subtitles, states they are not his opinions, and still gets pulled up for it&#33;&#33;

Are you on something LeGoMyFnLeg??




:)

[FuNkY CaPrIcOrN]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@5 October 2003 - 10:35
Hey, what&#39;s going on here for fuck sake?

Shareholder posts an article by a third person, he gives the source, uses the same title and subtitles, states they are not his opinions, and still gets pulled up for it&#33;&#33;

Are you on something LeGoMyFnLeg??




:)
:D Crack&#33; :D

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

I&#39;m on a forum. And unlike yourself and a few others here, I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past.
Read that line again so you understand it well, "I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past".

I have no doubt that you, Billy_Dean, will dismiss this as you seem to be limited in both character and comprehension.
Your mission here at this forum, you have already made clear.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN just doesn&#39;t know any better and his witless comments are most often dismissible.

Form up your posses now boys, the big bad man has pointed out weaknesses in your ability to understand social irresponsibility and correct with it.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by LeGoMyFnLeg@6 October 2003 - 00:28
I&#39;m on a forum. And unlike yourself and a few others here, I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past.
Read that line again so you understand it well, "I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past".

I have no doubt that you, Billy_Dean, will dismiss this as you seem to be limited in both character and comprehension.
Your mission here at this forum, you have already made clear.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN just doesn&#39;t know any better and his witless comments are most often dismissible.

Form up your posses now boys, the big bad man has pointed out weaknesses in your ability to understand social irresponsibility and correct with it.
Funky is a good member, if you have a problem with someone, no need to drag him through the mud.

We all come here for differeent reasons. Just because Funky does not choose to be as serious as others does not make him dismissible.

As for you, I agree. Why post something unless you have an opinion about it. There must be some motivation for posting it.

I, personally, see that the author offers a logically flawed argument.

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

I have no problem with FuNkY CaPrIcOrN, I have explained my reason.
Nothing wrong with being a jokester but this may be the wrong time and arena.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by LeGoMyFnLeg@6 October 2003 - 00:43
I have no problem with FuNkY CaPrIcOrN, I have explained my reason.
Nothing wrong with being a jokester but this may be the wrong time and arena.
agreed.

I just doubt that the original poster has no opinion.

We all have some goal/opinion when we post something

[FuNkY CaPrIcOrN]

:) Ok ok.I will say I am sorry(and I hardly ever do that :P ).

I know this Section of the Forum is for serious issues.And I hardly ever Post here.I just saw an oppurinty to say something like that as a little Joke.I know it was not funny.

Trust me....I would never throw in a Joke on a serious issue.Being as this is not too serious(to me as a American) I went with it. :)

I will never say you use Crack again.There are plenty of other Crackheads in other Sections on this Forum I can pick on. :D


FC B)

[Tikibonbon]

http://www.blackmaxpc.com/avatarsmiles/smiles/gives.gif

[nikita69]

The bigger picture is yet to come and the national ID card is only the beginning. One avenue is to protect National Interest and another is to monitor tracks of the ID holder even more than today.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by LeGoMyFnLeg@6 October 2003 - 08:28
I&#39;m on a forum. And unlike yourself and a few others here, I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past.
Read that line again so you understand it well, "I care about it&#39;s future more than it&#39;s past".

I have no doubt that you, Billy_Dean, will dismiss this as you seem to be limited in both character and comprehension.
Your mission here at this forum, you have already made clear.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN just doesn&#39;t know any better and his witless comments are most often dismissible.

Form up your posses now boys, the big bad man has pointed out weaknesses in your ability to understand social irresponsibility and correct with it.
Go on, you just keep talking crap, don&#39;t stop now&#33;

You pulled him up for no other reason than to be a smartarse. This was your first comment ... Hey if you don&#39;t like it here, move&#33; Oh wait, you don&#39;t live here. Never mind then. .... nothing polite about that at all, in fact, an insult.

Your next remark was this ... Then why do you see the need to flavour your topic with a title like this? ... which he pointed out was not his words, but came with the article.

Then this nonsense ... No matter if those words were mine or someone elses, it doesn&#39;t bode well for the peer to peer community or the forum either.

Followed by this pontification ... Do what you like but try to think globally when you do it. I might show contempt for an individual on occasion but treating an entire nation with contempt will surely lead to a bitter end.

Stop playing god, and stop playing with yourself, oh, and grow up&#33;









:)

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

I have no doubt that you, Billy_Dean, will dismiss this as you seem to be limited in both character and comprehension.


I wasn&#39;t far wrong was I?

It would seem that everyone else understands my concerns.
You probably aren&#39;t aware of this and it may not even concern you but at one time there was a strong north american presence on this board. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll say now that it was the fear of the RIAA that drove them all away. I strongly disagree.
I&#39;ve watched as topic after topic was posted disingenuously and for no other reason than to paint a picture of americans as stereotypical warmongers, invaders, wife beaters, and whatever else you might trench out of some desperate search for dirt. I think we&#39;re all a little tired of it.

You may be overjoyed that the forum is shifting from an international membership to a primarily Europian membership but that&#39;s not how many others feel.

Allow us to exist here equally or declare your intentions now please. I think you&#39;ll find a pinned topic on this as you enter this part of the forum. I recommend you read it.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by LeGoMyFnLeg@6 October 2003 - 17:52

I have no doubt that you, Billy_Dean, will dismiss this as you seem to be limited in both character and comprehension.


I wasn&#39;t far wrong was I?

It would seem that everyone else understands my concerns.
You probably aren&#39;t aware of this and it may not even concern you but at one time there was a strong north american presence on this board. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll say now that it was the fear of the RIAA that drove them all away. I strongly disagree.
I&#39;ve watched as topic after topic was posted disingenuously and for no other reason than to paint a picture of americans as stereotypical warmongers, invaders, wife beaters, and whatever else you might trench out of some desperate search for dirt. I think we&#39;re all a little tired of it.

You may be overjoyed that the forum is shifting from an international membership to a primarily Europian membership but that&#39;s not how many others feel.

Allow us to exist here equally or declare your intentions now please. I think you&#39;ll find a pinned topic on this as you enter this part of the forum. I recommend you read it.
You can&#39;t gloss over your words, you had nothing to say, but said it anyway.

With all that is going on in the world at the moment, it&#39;s hardly surprising there are a lot of what you would perceive as anti-American threads. There are also a fair amount of anti-British government posts, mostly posted by Brits. So to point the blame on anyone for Americans deserting the forum is shit. It seems to me people are deserting KL in droves in general, and that has nothing to do with the forum.


:)

[Pitbul]

damn i am from america and i wish white America would shut the hell up and stop complaining. pretty soon i&#39;ll have to carry a ID that regard my brown skin and stating i was born in the US. they are wondering why people are transporting hispanic people thru tijuana or Arizona is cuz US is making it more scarce and that means the price per person is going higher and only rising the probability of them bring more people cuz they know they can ask for more money. my dad was illegal but he went throuogh the whole process and first got an Green Card then later got his citisinship and its not cheap thats why people rather just come accross the boarders then having to go thru all that. Tom Clancy has sayin "Freedom Is Not Free" and could not be more right.God Forbid anybody from Pakistan, Afganastan, Africa, Canada, Or Mexico come to USA for hopes of something better.

[J'Pol]

I think the Government of the United Kingdom is doing an absolutely spiffing job of running the country.

On topic as I have previously stated, or at least hinted at, I can see no good reason for anyone not being willing to carry an identity caard, or indeed supply DNA and fingerprints.

It is only people with something to hide who would object.

[Biggles]

I thought there already were id cards in the US, or is that at an individual State level?

In the UK, I am not sure what the difference between an id card and the new Euro driving licence with a photo is. It would seem that they are almost re-inventing the wheel. Why not incorporate the two and leave a bit blank for those who do not drive. Or is that too simple? DVLC already has the technology and the equipment for issuing the things and the experience of controlling the things. Can you just imagine the chaos a new department could cause?

Personally, ids don&#39;t bother me.

[nikita69]

Originally posted by JPaul@7 October 2003 - 03:10
I think the Government of the United Kingdom is doing an absolutely spiffing job of running the country.

On topic as I have previously stated, or at least hinted at, I can see no good reason for anyone not being willing to carry an identity caard, or indeed supply DNA and fingerprints.

It is only people with something to hide who would object.
hello JP. I have nothing to hide and with family&#39;s background of law enforcement and still object to the aditional items u mentioned, DNA & fingerprints. How did u conclude to such judgment? :)

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nikita69+6 October 2003 - 23:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nikita69 &#064; 6 October 2003 - 23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@7 October 2003 - 03:10
I think the Government of the United Kingdom is doing an absolutely spiffing job of running the country.

On topic as I have previously stated, or at least hinted at, I can see no good reason for anyone not being willing to carry an identity caard, or indeed supply DNA and fingerprints.

It is only people with something to hide who would object.
hello JP. I have nothing to hide and with family&#39;s background of law enforcement and still object to the aditional items u mentioned, DNA & fingerprints. How did u conclude to such judgment? :) [/b][/quote]
I have nothing to hide and as such am happy to leave my details with the authorities. That is what my conclusion is based on. I have no problem identifying myself to the police if they wish me to. Indeed it saves a lot of bother and time.

I genuinely think that it will decrease the crime levels and make it easier to identify people who do commit crime. As you have a law enforcement background you will realise that one of the big things is elimination.

Fingerprints for example. The SOCO may find 20 prints, they have to eliminate those which should be there, employees, family whatever. If they can do this quickly from records it saves a lot of time.

They are left with what should not be there. If there is also a record of everyone&#39;s print then it is easy to establish who the print which should not be there belongs to.

DNA samples for rape cases - speaks for itself.

What is your objection to this type of thing.

[Biggles]

I have sympathies with both arguments here. On the one hand there is a natural human desire for privacy and on the other hand a desire to help the police where necessary.

I suspect everyone has a certain dread that such a system could all go horribly wrong or at some point in the future fall into the hands of those who may set criteria less than fair (i.e. everyone who votes Green gets rounded up, phones tapped or whatever) :ph34r:

All things being equal I have, as I said, no problem, but I think I can see why ordinary law abiding people might be nervous.

[MagicNakor]

Censuses are invasive enough. The government really has no business knowing if I use Zest or Lever 2000. Or what the daily income of my dog is. I sure as hell don&#39;t want them having immediate and easy access to everything else.

:ninja:

[Biggles]

MagicNakor

But what good did finding out that you use 25 gallons of zest a day and that your dog is on a 100,000 really do them?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I liked the idea that in the last census lots of people put Jedi down as their religion. I understand if that more than 100,000 register it as their religion it has to be included on the next census form. Anybody know if they were successful? Or was it just another urban myth?

[nikita69]

Originally posted by JPaul@7 October 2003 - 04:28
I have nothing to hide and as such am happy to leave my details with the authorities. That is what my conclusion is based on. I have no problem identifying myself to the police if they wish me to. Indeed it saves a lot of bother and time.
I&#39;m happy for u that u feel at comfort with this.

I genuinely think that it will decrease the crime levels and make it easier to identify people who do commit crime. As you have a law enforcement background you will realise that one of the big things is elimination.
I agree with U. Yet making it easy is not the issue here, how they use such power is what I object to. politicians and as much i dislike saying, yes some law enforcement personnel, were, do and will continue to abuse any current/future power of authority.

Fingerprints for example. The SOCO may find 20 prints, they have to eliminate those which should be there, employees, family whatever. If they can do this quickly from records it saves a lot of time.
no doubt it would help.

They are left with what should not be there. If there is also a record of everyone&#39;s print then it is easy to establish who the print which should not be there belongs to.
what guaranties can anyone give that innocent people won&#39;t be falsely charged, with the current system there are thousands of cases from around the globe. Not including the ones that have not been given the opportunity to prove their innocence.

DNA samples for rape cases - speaks for itself.
no doubt it would help.

What is your objection to this type of thing.
my life, my body and my mind. Want me to contribute to society? well I do. We all do, in our own way. We all have good & bad to us, no one is perfect.

On one hand its a balance of reducing crime and protect "national interest"
on the other hand its the survival of the basic rule of humanity, freedom

Believe it or not, there are several current laws that have so much loop holes that major criminals continue to live their life outside of prison and neither the national ID, nor DNA or even the fingerprint records would reduce crime drastically and/or in noticeable levels. What we need is the elimination of curroption within our current system. :)

btw, i do respect ur choice. also, u haven&#39;t answered my original question. :)

[Busyman]

National ID cards are a great idea and it&#39;s not so far fetched anyway. We already have state driver&#39;s licenses/ID cards. Wtf is the difference between that and a FEDERAL ID card.
Also the government is smart for putting religion on the census. If one were dumb enough to check it so be it.
I believe everyone should be fingerprinted but it has to be done in a certain way.
For instance, you must have a valid driver&#39;s licenses to receive the priviledge of driving or face consequences if caught driving without one.
The government should attach fingerprinting to a certain priviledge.
I just recalled that when I was a Boy Scout I was tricked. We had tour of a police station and at the end of tour THOSE BASTARDS FINGERPRINTED US. They probably were not being "educational". They probably did that shit on the dl because I lived in a crime ridden black neighborhood.

Anyway back on subject....

The government could attach fingerprinting with driving. I hope ALL immigrants are fingerprinted. That should be added to gain the priviledge of coming into the country. DNA is little more personal.

The unfortunate thing is that all of this will not necessarily reduce crime but help crimes to be solved easier. (It might make for a smarter criminal)

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

I agree with this plan. The local phone book is a good example of the need for something like this and no offense is intended to anyone but when I see 25 pages of listings for a "Singh Sidhu" all in the same small geographical area, I wonder how much worse it must be for officials to keep track of things. There is an absolute need for a comprehensive identification process. Not only to aid in tracking down criminals, but also to ensure that everyone has an equal chance at social programs and benefits which have been subject to abuse for some time.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by nikita69@7 October 2003 - 00:13


btw, i do respect ur choice.&nbsp; also, u haven&#39;t answered my original question. :)
What question have I failed to answer.

If it&#39;s

"How did u conclude to such judgment?"

I have answered it as I understand it. If my understanding was incorrect could you re-word it.

[clocker]

Re: fingerprinting.

I recently read an article about the wide disparity of opinion as to what constitutes a match when comparing prints. In some jurisdictions as few as 6 points of comparision is legally acceptable while in others the number raises to as high as 12 or 15.
There is also a haphazard array of standards governing the training of the "experts" qualified to present testimony.
If mandatory fingerprinting is going to occur then I think that these standards need to be more uniform and stringently enforced.
Given the high levels of credability that we have attributed to the "science" of fingerprint indentification, I would hope the standards would be raised quite a bit.

[J'Pol]

16 points is the minimum I am aware of in the UK

[clocker]

Originally posted by JPaul@6 October 2003 - 17:21
16 points is the minimum I am aware of in the UK
Is this a national standard?
In the US I think that every court determines the standards it wishes to impose.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by Biggles@7 October 2003 - 00:00
...Anybody know if they were successful? Or was it just another urban myth?
No, you can actually check off Jedi Knight, if you were so inclined. ;)

:ninja:

[junkyardking]

Some people seem willing to sacrifice liberty for safety but who will provide safety from the state.
Politicians and the government are hardly worthy of your trust yet people are willing to provide
DNA and fingerprints to them under the impression this will bring them safety
but in reality will only bring them repression, absolute naivety and stupidity at it&#39;s finest. B)

[nikita69]

I just recalled that when I was a Boy Scout I was tricked. We had tour of a police station and at the end of tour THOSE BASTARDS FINGERPRINTED US. They probably were not being "educational". They probably did that shit on the dl because I lived in a crime ridden black neighborhood.
@Busyman - I didn&#39;t want to give my experience earlier about this issue, thinking no one would believe it. I was tricked to, so did hundreds of my school that I&#39;m aware of and we lived in a mid-upper class area (besides, the race factor is not why). to my suprise later in life, is that we were few of hundreds of thousands (some agencies reported millions, and many countries did it). whether this is issue is still going or not, i haven&#39;t checked.

@JP - point and case about abuse of power and invading of privacy to children. Did we have anything to hide, besides the note we get from boys (girls in ur case)? :)

@junkyardking - I agree with u except the stupididty part.

Besides, the US is leading the social change by force not choice, to a certain extent. And the UK is right behind it.