Should "culture" End At The Border?

[Billy_Dean]

This is a report from England. A young girl was murdered for breaking the "rules" of her father's culture.

Muslim dad slits girl’s throat for being too Western


MUSLIM asylum seeker Abdulla Yones grew increasingly angry as his pretty daughter Heshu became more Western-ised.

For months Heshu, 16, who had started a sexual relationship with her Christian boyfriend, endured beatings at her father’s hands.

Then, one day, the “bright, vibrant” girl paid the highest price. In a frenzied knife attack in the bathroom of their west London home, her father stabbed her 18 times before cutting her throat.

Yones, 48, a Kurdish refugee from Iraq, was on Monday jailed for life for the so-called “honour” murder.

At the Old Bailey, Judge Neil Denison said: “It’s plain that you strongly and genuinely disapproved of the lifestyle in this country of your daughter and the fact that that was affecting her school work. But having said that, the killing and manner of it was, as you recognised from the moment you did it, an appalling act.”

On that fateful day last October, furious Yones smashed down the bathroom door after Heshu barricaded herself inside.

The girl was found with a kitchen knife still in her neck, bent out of shape. She had been stabbed in her back, shoulders and breasts. There were cuts to her hands and arms as she tried to defend herself. One stab wound to her back was so severe that the tip of the knife broke off after cutting into bone. Tension had been building after Yones, of Acton, was called to the William Morris Academy in Fulham to discuss why his daughter had been missing school.

Three days before the killing he received an unsigned letter sent to the headquarters of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan in Vauxhall, south London, claiming that Heshu was behaving like a prostitute and sleeping with her boyfriend, an 18-year-old Lebanese student, on a daily basis. Sexual relationships before marriage are forbidden under Muslim law.

After killing his daughter, while her mother and two brothers were out, Yones tried to slit his own throat then jumped off a balcony in an attempt to kill himself. when he survived, he told police that an Al Qaeda suspect had broken into the flat and murdered Heshu and attacked him.

But the Kurd, who fled Saddam Hussein’s regime 10 years ago, finally pleaded guilty to the murder of his daughter and repeatedly begged the judge to give him the death sentence.

Source (http://www.theinternationalexpress.com/)

My question is this; Should immigrants to a country be expected to adopt that country's culture?

There are many other practices taking place in countries like Britain, female circumsism for one, that are barbaric, and should be stopped. But what if they clash with the culture of the country of origin? Should they be allowed to continue in their adoptive homeland?

Another point this raises is, what IS a country's culture? How would you define the "culture" of your country?

This thread is not an invite to attack anyone, if that's your intention, piss off somewhere else and do it.

Let's see if we can get opinions on this, not a flame war.




:)

[Riddler]

Good question BD. Although what I'm about to type is nowhere near as extreme as your example, I do believe that immigrants should at the very least learn the language of the culture in which they're about to immerse themselves. I live on the west cost of Canada and we have a very high concentration of Asian and East Indian immigrants. I have a particular gripe with the ones that operate businesses in my home and native land and make no effort to even learn one of our two official languages because they cater mostly to people of their own ethnic origins. There is a certain level of frustration involved when it comes to walking down to the corner store in my own neighborhood and not being able to communicate with the shopkeeper because of a language barrier.
I expect that to be the case when I travel abroad and therefore make a concerted effort to learn the local language and customs so as not to risk offending anyone.
It's unfortunate that our government has such an open door policy re; immigration, as it represents $$$$$$ they can collect through taxes, etc. We must ask ourselves if we were to move to India or Pakistan or China, how would we fare by not bothering to learn their language or abide by their customs ?

[j2k4]

It would be terrific if cultural immersion (from the standpoint of immigration) were the norm, as I've pointed out in other threads.

I prefer that term (and I suspect others would, also) to such as "assimilation", which seems to suggest Nazism to some.

Billy's example, while extreme, is a proper starting point for this thread, as it does away with the trivial, which so often serves as wasteful prelude to a serious discussion.

I believe it, and also such examples as the Florida woman who converted to Islam and refused to be photographed for her driver's license without her veil, are ideally suited for a debate as to the problems of feasability and logistics which arise from immigration.

Good topic, Billy. ;)

Oh, to answer your question, YES!


Edit: added "answer"

[Billy_Dean]

One of the points I meant to raise, but forgot, was the term "multi-cultural", an expression Australia likes to use. This should not be confused with "multi-racial", although it often is. Australia, for example, is muti-racial, and a good thing too. It's the expression "multi-cultural" that causes problems.


:)

[clocker]

Billy, your example begs the question-If the father was so appalled by the Western cultural influences, why the hell did he choose to go to a Western country?

[noname12]

No we should not adopt a countries culture, but we should abide by the countries law's, I aint gonna change the way I speak just because some native doesnt feel comfy, I aint going to change my ways and I am not going to change any of my religious practices just because some people dont understand it. every one decides how they lives, what path they want and in what way they will live there life, and I for one aint gonna let any country dictate to me how I should act or speak or pray :lol:


Honour killings dont exist in any of the major three religions, neither does it exist in any culture, If that freak kurd commited that crime in the middle east, or even kurdistan, he would have been punished (most likely death penalty).

Besides different cultures offer many great things... such as the carnival in london.... :lol:

[ilw]

I was thinking the same thing as clocker just pointed out, admittedly the person was a refugee, but if your trying to escape persecution then fleeing to a country where your cultural values will not be accepted and you don't accept their cultural values, seems odd. Personally I don't really have a problem with immigrants / refugees keeping their cultures as long as it doesn't conflict with the nation's laws. Its no business of mine whether someone wears cultural dress etc, it makes life a little bit more interesting and often ends up adding variety to the native culture. I draw the line at language, i think not being able to speak the native language immediately segregates people and there is no integration with the rest of the country. Its a tough problem because immigrants tend to need support and friends when they first arrive and its natural that fellow countrymen will be more open and accepting. however, this leads to cliques and often these things tend to snowball so you get sizeable areas with people who in their daily lives don't have to speak the native language and so never learn it and aren't ever assimilated into the country they moved to. These kinds of things tend to create tension in communities who feel they are overrun or that their country is being taken over.

Edit just saw nonames post and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3097728.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3094736.stm
Links to honour killings in Jordan and the light prison sentences that are served

Edited second time: Just saw this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2954060.stm a 1 year jail sentence for strangling his sister to death

[noname12]

Just saw ILW's, yeah Jordan is a messed up place but it still aint the culture, just the odd Wahabite in the system who thinks that its right to do it... again its down to a freak not culture :lol:

ilw, if you go to the mid east, you will see that the general populas(spelling?) disagrees with this, but thanks to the freaks in power they get to dictate what goes on... not the actual culture :lol:

[ilw]

Yes Jordan does seem to give out the lightest sentences i've seen but i think you seriously underestimate the number. eg around 400 women are killed in Pakistan every year by members of their own family in so called honour killings.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@8 October 2003 - 09:56
One of the points I meant to raise, but forgot, was the term "multi-cultural", an expression Australia likes to use.  This should not be confused with "multi-racial", although it often is.  Australia, for example, is muti-racial, and a good thing too.  It's the expression "multi-cultural" that causes problems.


:)
I agree, multi-culturalism is the sticking point.

Here in the U.S., whereas during the (for lack of a better term) "golden age" of immigration, and continuing through the sixties, I'd say, we had a system which fomented and presumed aculturation; these days, we have a system of accomodation, which is effectively giving racism a new framework upon which to flourish.

The incident raised by Billy and questioned by the others, is, I think, a result of this mis-guided and mis-begotten trend of cross/multi-cultural acceptance.

[noname12]

Originally posted by ilw@8 October 2003 - 15:42
Yes Jordan does seem to give out the lightest sentences i've seen but i think you seriously underestimate the number. eg around 400 women are killed in Pakistan every year by members of their own family in so called honour killings.
ilw, in pakistan, saudi arabi, yemen, jordan and afghanistan you will find an un-accepted sect of Islam which are called the Wahabites, these people follow no traditional Islam, they pretty much make up the rules as they go along, these minorities see Honour killings as part of religion, and due to the lack of policing in Pakistan, and the majority of rulers in the mid east being wahabite origin, you will find that very little is done but it does not reflect the general culture of the people, just the minority who are hell bent on being evil and claiming it in the name of good.

[ilw]

Sorry i didn't really address nonames previious post, why is it that in Jordan its so hard for them to give tougher sentencing then? Whether or not the populous agree with it, it seems an accepted fact of life.And it is cultural and vaguely religious.


Originally posted by BBC news

"A woman is like an olive tree. When its branch catches woodworm, it has to be chopped off so that society stays clean and pure."
...
It is widely agreed that the root and cause of honour killing is a complex, historical phenomenon which has no justification in Islam's holy book, the Koran, and which has also been known to occur elsewhere in the world and among other religions.

Nonetheless, it is the insistence within Islamic culture of the need to preserve women's purity - and the disgrace that any stain on this purity may bring upon the family - that appears to be making it so tough in Jordan to stamp out the crime and to bring their perpetrators to court on murder charges
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3094736.stm

This is getting confusing cos we're both posting at rougly the same time.

[noname12]

:lol: look up ilw question already answered... i'm sycic (spelling?)

[ilw]

But what you've just pointed out is that there is a culture that does this... And they don't seem minor if they wield enough political power in Jordan to prevent tougher sentencing (which amounts to vague acceptance of this tradition)

[noname12]

ilw, believe me, they are the smallest sect, compared to any religion, they probably only number in the thousands, and the only reason there in power is due to the history of the middle east... to long to explain :lol:

[ilw]

If that freak kurd commited that crime in the middle east, or even kurdistan, he would have been punished (most likely death penalty).

and the majority of rulers in the mid east being wahabite origin, you will find that very little is done
Not to be harsh, but which is it, the 2 statements are basically mutually exclusive.

[noname12]

[edit: :lol: ilw, I forgot about the wahabites :"> ]
[edit2: and I was thinking along the lines of kuwait, where a guy was imprisoned for life for such a killing, Iraq, Iran, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and Lebnon]

For it to be a culture it would need to be shared by all within that paticular community and had to pe practiced long enough to be considered part of that community, whereas the wahabite are just a break away sect that conforms more to the thinking of the sunnite sect but goes way to far even in the sunnites views, and there traditions are reletavly new and have not been practiced for a little more then I think 200 years, and even within the wahabite sect there is conflicts on certain rules, but the leaders way up are, as named here, traditionalists so they will most likely follow the leader Abdul-Wahab who was the founder, and he supported honour killings and such.
The Royal family of saudi arabia are wahabite, for one.

[ilw]

I find it hard to believe that theres anyhwere near the same kind of condemnation for honour killings in the Middle East as there is in the West. First off, in quite a few Middle Eastern countries the punishment for an honour killing may actually be lighter than in the west, despite the disproportionately harsher punishments for other crimes. Secondly correct me if i'm wrong, but don't quite a few Middle Eastern countries have Sharia law, ie if a women is found to have commited adultery she is stoned.
I would speculate that people coming from these countries are at the very least desensitised if not accepting of the idea that women who stray should be killed.

[noname12]

All Islamic countries follow sharia law, but it doesnt only apply to women, if a man is found to be commiting adultry then he is stoned too, which if you ask me is all cool :lol:,
and in normal countries the penalty is death for murder, regardless of what the reason is, death penalty can only be dished out by Islamic courts or normal courts, so regardless in the normal mid-east states murder is murder, with or without honour.

edit: all my edited parts are shown in bold.

[Billy_Dean]

According to a report I read, there have been 5,000 such killings a year in the world. Estimates are that there have been 20 such killings in the UK, 12 in the last year.


On a lighter note, multi-culturalism can lead to some bizzare examples of political correctness. An example was the school in England that traditionally gave the kids hot-cross-buns at easter, this year the crosses were taken off, so as not too offend non-christians. It actually had the reverse effect, non-christians were outraged that people would think them so petty.



:)

[noname12]

I remember when they tried to stop every one refering to "coloured" people as black....

[nikita69]

There are many flaws/misconception about this article, as anyone can search and find out for themselves:
Muslim Dad slits girl's threat


This is misconception and/or ignorant reporting, when someone slits his girl's threat, he is no longer a Muslim anymore. I've researched this same issue in the past and found nothing in that religion that allows anyone to do such action, however, I found a rule/law that forbids such action. The slit of a daughter's throat is a pre-Islam way of doing thing in Arabia. Some people have passed on that "Culture" mentality, yet most comprehended that the fact that this is simply wrong to do.



Kurdish


"They claim to be descendants of the ancient Medes. Some speculate that they are descended from the Elamites or from the ten lost tribes of Israel. Jews did settle there from Assyrian times onwards, forming one of the oldest existing Jewish communities. Most of them emigrated to Israel after 1948." Not everyone that says I'm from this or that religion actually does represent the religion they follow. We have all seen it where a human does harm to someone else and the media continues to categorize that person as a follower of that religion. It's a headline grabber, selling point.

This story caught the headlines for many reasons. Some of which are current events in Iraq, the Kurds idintity issue (don't have a country) & ISLAM.

As for the question of the topic, I suggest to say "People who cross the border of any country should recognize and obide by the laws of that country, otherwise don't cross"

EDIT: I just saw (came at the end of the store) on sattelite channel of a man (lawer) who will be released from prison soon in NY after killing a 6 yr old 16 years ago. The law in NY for such crime is if the prisonor has served 1/3 in "good bahviour" of time served, then they can be released. What's even more shoking is local NY TV channels are all after him to hire as their TV producer.
SOURCE (http://www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/nyc-mada0924,0,6990470.story?coll=nyc-ent-topheadlines-left)

On Monday, Hoffman said his infamous client Joel Steinberg — convicted of first-degree manslaughter in the notorious 1987 death of his illegally adopted daughter, Lisa — would be hired to work for "New York Confidential" after Steinberg's possible release from prison this summer. Barrows was said to be featured in the first episode of "New York Confidential," scheduled to air next week.

NATURAL BORN KILLER (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=99746&command=displayContent&sourceNode=98877&contentPK=7326957)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@8 October 2003 - 11:40
On a lighter note, multi-culturalism can lead to some bizzare examples of political correctness. An example was the school in England that traditionally gave the kids hot-cross-buns at easter, this year the crosses were taken off, so as not too offend non-christians. It actually had the reverse effect, non-christians were outraged that people would think them so petty.



:)
Such reports are few and far between, but heartening nonetheless.

I think actual incidents, as described, far out-number official reports of same; we have (as usual) the media to thank for this sad circumstance.

[Billy_Dean]

Another custom that is rife in Britain is arranged marriages. Where a female is concerned, this is often little more than selling her. British female citizens fetch a very high price in India, her husband gets a passport, and can bring his immediate family into the UK. The Times of India is full of bride trades every day. In the UK, this happens to girls who were born and bred there, and are as British as anyone else, it's a huge problem for many of them, many of them have suicided.


:)

[Billy_Dean]

Edit: duplicate post.

Have a go here, you may find that perfect someone!

Matrimonial Webpages (http://www.timesclassifieds.com/tc/matrisearch/MatriSearchAd.jsp)


:)

[noname12]

Thanks to nikita it sounds like I posted something weird :lol: so now I gotta say the story... Well umong my asian friends apparently its known that old Indian/Bangladeshi men purchase girls in there early teens from poor families in there homeland and bring them over, and apparently British men partake in this also.

[nikita69]

both issues, BD & 12, that is sick.

btw, i've edited my post again (was having problems with the board) take a look at the links. Eventhough the convicted has a Jewish name, you won't see the headline with "Jewish man" or "Jewish prisoner".

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@8 October 2003 - 13:15
Another custom that is rife in Britain is arranged marriages.  Where a female is concerned, this is often little more than selling her.  British female citizens fetch a very high price in India, her husband gets a passport, and can bring his immediate family into the UK.  The Times of India is full of bride trades every day.  In the UK, this happens to girls who were born and bred there, and are as British as anyone else, it's a huge problem for many of them, many of them have suicided.


:)
Why don't we (the U.S., I mean) send a huge contingent of our "Feminists" to India and China to conduct a proper and well-deserved legal emasculation of the male hierarchies of both countries?

Surely the U.N. could get behind the idea?

I don't think this is too far OT. ;)

[nikita69]

12, i wasn't saying "that is sick" to you or BD, both stories are sick. Also, this happens daily around the world in one too many countries. :(

btw, sometimes I don't quote people to give them the opprutinty for edit (if I know that they don't mean any harm/disrespect to anyone, like ur case & bd) :)

[nikita69]

@j2k4 - This issue, at this moment, has no value to the current administration. besides, don't rule out this problem from America. There are many rings around the US with this same issue.

[J'Pol]

I cannot accept that infanticide is a cultural right.

To keep this simple, everyone follows the same rules with the same penalties. If you don't like it tough. You join the club you follow the rules. You don't follow the rules you pay the penalty.

One law for all men, irrespective of race, creed or culture.

This is a black and white issue, at least in my opinion.

[Biggles]

BD

The case was indeed sad and by all accounts the father was a brute. He lost his temper and stabbed her umpteen times. I think this has less to do with religion and more to do with "issues" he had over family, freak and control (any order will do). He knew he had done wrong and was trying to use culture as an escape route.

By and large, culture is something that first generation immigrants worry about. The daughter, in the instance cited, had already jetisoned much of it and was adapting to her new surroundings. This is common.

I have a friend who is a second generation Hindu and he has kept those things that matter to him. He is a vegetarian and is quite moral and conservative in my view. He is also an absolute scream down the pub after a couple of pints and is football mad.

I think the fear of immigrants should be designated as some kind of new phobia. Although we are worrying about them not adapting to our culture they are equally in a panic about their kids rejecting almost everything they hold dear. The fact is that the much larger host nation is in the stonger position.

We only have to look at those communities that have been embedded in our culture for 100 years or more. They are barely distinguishable from the host country yet, like the Jewish community, have kept their religion and aspects of life that make them unique.

Where the assimilation takes longest is where ghettos and isolation occurs. I strongly believe that it is in the long term interests of refugees to be spread into the broader community and not held together where they simply create a mini Kurdistan or whatever. The latter is perfect if they are going back in 6 months or a year but not if they plan to settle here.

I take a liberal view on most things and I guess what I am saying is that those that wish to come to a liberal democracy should bite the bullet and adapt to that culture. If I went to live in France I would want to make French friends not try and find Scottish ex-pats.

What I have said above doesn't mean that immigrants don't add or enrich the host nation just that the tail doesn't wag the dog. :rolleyes:

[Rat Faced]

As far as im concerned, they can keep any part of their culture, that doe not break the laws of the host nation.

BD pointed to arranged marriages in the UK...yes this still goes on, however they dont have to follow that tradition, as in this country you cant be forced to marry.

I do nevertheless understand what BD is trying to say, they have enormous pressure placed on them to follow tradition, and in many cases threats from their male family members.

Riddler....


It's unfortunate that our government has such an open door policy re; immigration, as it represents $$$$$$ they can collect through taxes, etc. We must ask ourselves if we were to move to India or Pakistan or China, how would we fare by not bothering to learn their language or abide by their customs ?



I was looking into immigration to Canada not so long ago....its harder than you imply, at least if your from the UK :(

You basically need to be self sufficient before you move there, with £250,000 in the bank and a job to go to.....unless you have family over there already, that undertake to look after you.

I believe in the 60s Canada, like Australia paid us to go. I guess i was born in the wrong decade.

[MagicNakor]

Immigrating into Canada is very difficult. It's actually easier if you're from the UK than if you're from, say, Zaire.

Unfortunately I'm not feeling well, so I didn't read most of this thread. It'll have to wait until I get better.

:ninja:

[Riddler]

@ Rat Faced & Wizard....

I must be living in an area then, where a significant number of immigrants are sponsored by family members already here, wherein the requirements are basically just so; that you have a family member willing to support you.

Regardless, I came across some enlightening articles on the subject of Canadian Immigration Policy. Here are two of them;

From; The Economic Times, India Sep28/03 :

The Canadian government has, in fact, made a commitment to bring more than 300,000 immigrants each year into Canada. And now it seems the country is open for the right applicant and the government will keep changing immigration regulations in response to the socio- economic demands of the country.

From; The Globe and Mail Sep17/03 :


The argument is often made that Canada needs large-scale immigration to compensate for the population decline that will begin several years hence because of our low birthrate. This statement is misleading to say the least. According to Statistics Canada projections, if there is no change in our fertility rate, our population will continue without any net immigration to increase moderately until 2018, and will not fall below current levels until 2026. These estimates hardly provide support for a significant increase in immigrants at this juncture.

It is certainly true that immigration has benefited Canada. Among other things, it has in recent decades enriched our society through the diversity it has brought to our shores. On the other hand, activists such as Immigration Minister Denis Coderre who try justify high immigration levels on the basis of looming labour shortages are doing a disservice to newcomers and Canadians alike. My Fraser Institute paper "Canada's Immigration Policy: The Need for Major Reform" indicates that, rather than facing a general shortage of skilled labour, we probably have an unutilized pool of labour.

Despite this, Canada keeps enticing tens of thousands of skilled immigrants who leave good careers in their home countries only to face major difficulties in finding suitable employment here. Recent newcomers experience higher levels of unemployment, earn considerably less, and have higher poverty rates, than either earlier immigrants, or the Canadian-born. Worse, the vast majority of newcomers go to overcrowded metropolitan areas such as Toronto -- something even the federal government admits is undesirable.

While Ottawa has plans to try to get more immigrants to settle where the population is in decline, efforts to do this in other countries have met with limited success. The Liberal government will probably continue to try to squeeze ever-increasing numbers into the large cities as long as there are reasonable expectations that these people will throw their political support behind the party in power.
While immigration can be very beneficial to Canada and to newcomers alike, there are clearly major problems with our current policies -- policies driven more by political concerns than the best interests of either the country or the immigrants themselves.
Martin Collacott is a former Canadian ambassador in Asia and the Middle East

[Billy_Dean]

I didn't mean this post to be about the pros and cons of immigration, but the "integration" of immigrant culture, and it's effect on the culture of the host country.

I was reading an article recently about Silicon Valley, I believe it said that 40% of the top people there were from the Indian subcontinent, the impact they have made would be enormous. I certainly have no problems with immigration, being an immigrant myself, one world one people. Now, if we could only get rid of religion ...... :)


:)

[ilw]

Originally posted by noname12@8 October 2003 - 17:33
All Islamic countries follow sharia law, but it doesnt only apply to women, if a man is found to be commiting adultry then he is stoned too, which if you ask me is all cool  :lol:,
and in normal countries the penalty is death for murder, regardless of what the reason is, death penalty can only be dished out by Islamic courts or normal courts, so regardless in the normal mid-east states murder is murder, with or without honour.

edit: all my edited parts are shown in bold.
:lol: yeah stoned to death thats funny :lol:
I take it by "normal countries" you mean non-western countries? In america its only a relatively small percentage of murderers that get the death penalty and in nearly all of Europe ( Australia as well i think? ) the death penalty is just history. Then theres the bizarre concept of humane killing, which even if any kind of death can be considered humane, stoning doesn't really seem to meet all the requirements.
I know its applied to men as well as women, but women suffer disproportionately, because they can become pregnant and because rape is basically impossible to prove under Sharia law. Likewise honour killings apparently can involve the murder of men, as i understand it the term can be applied to any person you kill because they are besmirching your (family's?) honour.

Hmm got sidetracked a bit there, as you may guess i'm no fan of Sharia law. I'll get back to the point. IMO there are immigrants who find that members of their family accepting western law over traditional values deeply shameful, and the fact that there is no legal recourse to the punishment they see as fit, naturally leads to a tiny percentage of them taking the law into their own hands. The fact that immigrants tend to congregate and set up small communities (e.g. as mentioned a 'mini Kurdistan') means that their traditional values survive the immigration process and are of substantial importance. Looking at Billy's example the man received a letter which was basically telling him that his daughter was a whore and that others in his community knew about it. To a man who sounds like he had a fairly high social standing in his little community, that must be a terrible blow and as i mentioned the punishment his society/culture expects (demands?) was never going to be delivered. As a first generation immigrant I'm sure he accepted what the punishment should be and after days of his anger builiding things must have come to a head and he killed her. Whether it was just pure anger or whether the social peer pressure has a significant effect is open to debate, but i would rather doubt that a second, third generation or native person would act in the same way.

[noname12]

nope not normal as in non-western, normal as in ones that dont support honour killings, and I do find stoning to death funny, its a very good way to make sure no one cheats :lol:

[ilw]

Good answer, to be honest i didn't anticipate the 'i like stoning' response.

[lynx]

Originally posted by noname12@9 October 2003 - 10:50
I do find stoning to death funny, its a very good way to make sure no one cheats :lol:
Good idea, let's not bother trying to find out what might have gone wrong.
Hey, even better, we should apply this to all problems. Let's not bother trying to solve the Israel/Palestine problem, just nuke the whole area, it will save a lot of time and bother and someone else can live there in a few hundred years.

[Riddler]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@9 October 2003 - 02:49
I didn't mean this post to be about the pros and cons of immigration, but the "integration" of immigrant culture, and it's effect on the culture of the host country.




I'm sorry if it seemed that I was veering from the subject matter BD. Still, I'm of the opinion that if an individual is immigrating to a country under the umbrella of " family sponsorship " and is not subject to the qualifying criteria of another individual outside that umbrella, ie; a certain level of proficiency in the country's official language, the " integration " of said immigrant may prove difficult on both the individual and the host country. My example was many degrees less severe than yours, to be sure, but given my own personal interaction with various cultures in my immediate surroundings, I thought it was relevant to the topic. :)

[Billy_Dean]

Sorry Riddler, that wasn't meant as a rebuke, I just thought if we broached on that subject we'd get flamed by idiots.

:)

Edit: Grammar.

[Riddler]

B) Gotchya.

[Rat Faced]

NEver mind him Riddler.........just tell me how to move to Canada without winning the Lottery 1st.....

Dont mind where......like the sound of Edmonton though :)



Unless I can get NikkiD to marry me ;)

[MagicNakor]

If you're in a trade profession you'll find it a lot easier. Of course, if you've got relatives it's easier yet. And generally if you hire an immigration lawyer it becomes very easy indeed. ;)

:ninja:

[lynx]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@10 October 2003 - 04:10
And generally if you hire an immigration lawyer it becomes very easy indeed. ;)
But don't you need to win the lottery to pay him? Rather seems to defeat the object :lol:

[Riddler]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@9 October 2003 - 15:44
NEver mind him Riddler.........just tell me how to move to Canada without winning the Lottery 1st.....

Dont mind where......like the sound of Edmonton though :)



Unless I can get NikkiD to marry me ;)
Here's a free online Questionnaire (http://www.immigration.ca/assess2.asp) that you can fill out and they'll apparently let you know what you're chances are...............really ! :)


EDIT; Oh btw...forget Edmonton. Unless you LIKE watching your breath freeze in mid-air for 5 months of the year ! ;)

[clocker]

Originally posted by Riddler@10 October 2003 - 06:15






EDIT; Oh btw...forget Edmonton. Unless you LIKE watching your breath freeze in mid-air for 5 months of the year ! ;)
Hey now.

I thoroughly enjoyed my year and a half in Edmonton.

The Northern Lights are spectacular.
The fried dough is very good.

You get used to freezing your tits off and plugging in your car...

[Riddler]

:D
And let's not forget about the West Edmonton Mall ! It almost makes up for your ears falling off and shattering on the sidewalk. ;)

[clocker]

Ah yes, the Mall.

Unfortunately, I lived there before that was built.
We had to amuse ourselves in other, more mundane ways.

For instance, trying to figure out how Pakistani women could survive in saris while we suffered in every down parka made by The North Face...

[Riddler]

:lol: Yes, it always amazed me that they could stick to their traditional dress code even if it meant risking turning into ice sculptures while waiting for a bus !
But then I see them here all wrapped in those saris in the middle of an August heatwave and I think; hmmm.........either they're made of tougher stuff than I, or those clothes must be made from the silk of magic worms ! ;)

[human_pet]

I know its applied to men as well as women, but women suffer disproportionately,  because they can become pregnant and because rape is basically impossible to prove under Sharia law. Likewise honour killings apparently can involve the murder of men, as i understand it the term can be applied to any person you kill because they are besmirching your (family's?)  honour.

Even if a married/unmarried women become pregnant ,in sharia laws,that does NOT proove that she was willingly having sex with another man,One must provide atleast FOUR male witnessess(which is near impossible to find) or 8 female witnessess(making things more harder) and majority of scholars does not accept the use of DNA as DNA cannot tell if the man/woman had sex intercourse willingly or unwillingly,and in Islam,one must not search deep for a man/woman's sins

[ilw]

Originally posted by human_pet@13 October 2003 - 10:57
Even if a married/unmarried women become pregnant ,in sharia laws,that does NOT proove that she was willingly having sex with another man,One must provide atleast FOUR male witnessess(which is near impossible to find) or 8 female witnessess(making things more harder) and majority of scholars does not accept the use of DNA as DNA cannot tell if the man/woman had sex intercourse willingly or unwillingly,and in Islam,one must not search deep for a man/woman's sins
That varies depending on how you interpret Sharia law, there are many countries and examples where pregnancy is enough to convict women and in the majority of Huddud cases (sexual offences), a women, but no man is convicted, which means theres either one very lucky man or men are getting away with it and woment aren't.
Probably the most famous recent examples are in Nigeria's northern state. (theres stuff on the bbc news website if you want http://news.bbc.co.uk just search for sharia and the top 5 - 10 links are I think two famous cases in Nigeria.) The nigeria examplse are famous because the country is split, but there are many other countries. If you look at execution rates for men and women for Huddud offences in practically any Muslim country to see the discrepancy.

[human_pet]

Originally posted by ilw+13 October 2003 - 10:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw &#064; 13 October 2003 - 10:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-human_pet@13 October 2003 - 10:57
Even if a married/unmarried women become pregnant ,in sharia laws,that does NOT proove that she was willingly having sex with another man,One must provide atleast FOUR male witnessess(which is near impossible to find) or 8 female witnessess(making things more harder) and majority of scholars does not accept the use of DNA as DNA cannot tell if the man/woman had sex intercourse willingly or unwillingly,and in Islam,one must not search deep for a man/woman&#39;s sins
That varies depending on how you interpret Sharia law, there are many countries and examples where pregnancy is enough to convict women and in the majority of Huddud cases (sexual offences), a women, but no man is convicted, which means theres either one very lucky man or men are getting away with it and woment aren&#39;t.
Probably the most famous recent examples are in Nigeria&#39;s northern state. (theres stuff on the bbc news website if you want http://news.bbc.co.uk just search for sharia and the top 5 - 10 links are I think two famous cases in Nigeria.) The nigeria examplse are famous because the country is split, but there are many other countries. If you look at execution rates for men and women for Huddud offences in practically any Muslim country to see the discrepancy. [/b][/quote]
But was&#39;nt there a case whre a nigerian woman was convicted because she had an illegetimate child but then her case was decreed null because the people who convicted her could&#39;nt give 4 male witnesses or any witnesses for that matter,

[ilw]

no the Islamic courts had no problem with convicting her, it went all the way up to a non-Islamic appeals court, who then quashed it.

[human_pet]

Originally posted by ilw@13 October 2003 - 11:39
no the Islamic courts had no problem with convicting her, it went all the way up to a non-Islamic appeals court, who then quashed it.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/20...article07.shtml (http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-09/25/article07.shtml)


The Islamic court ruled the conviction couldn&#39;t stand because Lawal wasn&#39;t given enough time to understand the charges against her; only one judge, instead of the required three, presided at her trial; and she was not caught in the act of sex out of wedlock.

[ilw]

Yeah, your right, I f*cked, up the bbc news site said her next appeal would be in a non-Islamic court & I put 2 & 2 together and got 5.