Failure?

[devilsadvocate]

A man is in custody for the NYC car bomb incident. Let's hope they have the guy that did it, and if do I would like to commend the law enforcement agencies and agents for a job well done.

As to the incident itself I wonder if the often used "failed attempt" description is accurate.

If the intent was just to kill Americans in an act of revenge, as suggested, for the killing of a Taliban leader, then it was a failure.

If the intent was an act of terrorism, look the word up, then it was a success.

If the latter is the case then the intent was aided domestically by alarmist fear mongering.

[999969999]

Yeah it definitely succeeded in terms of scaring the public.

The truth of the matter is that there is very little the government can do to prevent a terrorist act like that from occurring.

What people need to keep in mind is that the odds of ever getting hurt or killed by a terrorist are extremely low. I don't spend my time worrying about it.

But then, I don't Eagar will ever be a target of terrorism.

[clocker]

But then, I don't Eagar will ever be a target of terrorism.
Your little town- or one just like it- are the perfect targets and I'd be surprised if one doesn't get hit soon.
You have no security surveillance and a small police force...if I were a terrorist, someplace small, unprotected and unaware- like Eagar- would be a prime target.

[999969999]

I can see your point, it would be an easy target, but what good would it do them?

Can you imagine people around the world scratching their heads as the news rolls in that Eagar was just hit by terrorist attack? They wouldn't have any idea where in the world that was.

And when they're yucking it up with their friends, imagine the puzzled looks on their friends' faces when they said that they had just nailed Eagar.

But when they attack some place like New York, everyone knows where that is. They get more bang for their buck from some place like New York. Pun intended.

And there are no easy escape routes from Eagar (hundreds of miles before they would reach a big city), and it is nearly impossible to blend in with the rather monolithic locals-- they almost all look alike (85% white) and they know everyone in the town, so they would be able to spot a stranger rather quickly. You should see what locals do when a tourist comes through a residential (off the main street) area.

[devilsadvocate]

You have no security surveillance and a small police force...if I were a terrorist, someplace small, unprotected and unaware- like Eagar- would be a prime target.
:eyebrows: you appear to have put some thought into that.


Tying in with my theory that alarmists fearmongers are doing the work for the enemy I have to agree somewhat with your target theory. While we have domestic elements with megaphones stirring up the fear, small out of the way places would be ideal targets.

The attacks don't even have to be deadly, just the thought that they could have been is enough. Add a few anonymous false alarm warnings just to keep the fear up and let the talking heads on TV, radio and rallies do the rest of the work.

If they are paying attention to these paranoid conspiracy nutters, why would our enemies need another 911?


I can see your point, it would be an easy target, but what good would it do them?

The point being if nowhere is safe the fear is stronger

[clocker]

I can see your point, it would be an easy target, but what good would it do them?

Can you imagine people around the world scratching their heads as the news rolls in that Eagar was just hit by terrorist attack? They wouldn't have any idea where in the world that was.
How many people around the world had ever heard of Oklahoma City?



And there are no easy escape routes from Eagar (hundreds of miles before they would reach a big city), and it is nearly impossible to blend in with the rather monolithic locals-- they almost all look alike (85% white) and they know everyone in the town, so they would be able to spot a stranger rather quickly. You should see what locals do when a tourist comes through a residential (off the main street) area.
Timothy McVeigh would have fit right in.

[devilsadvocate]

You should see what locals do when a tourist comes through a residential (off the main street) area.
What do they do?

[clocker]

I'm picturing a big Hee-Haw type musical production, but could be wrong.

[999969999]

You should see what locals do when a tourist comes through a residential (off the main street) area.
What do they do?


They actually stop whatever they were doing and stare at the stranger driving through their part of town. Sometimes they even come out to the side of the road to get a better look at them, and then continue to watch them until they drive out of sight.

When I first drove my new car home, they all came out to look at it, and then when they saw it was just me, they went back to what they were doing.

[999969999]

I'm picturing a big Hee-Haw type musical production, but could be wrong.


What?

[999969999]

How many people around the world had ever heard of Oklahoma City?



And there are no easy escape routes from Eagar (hundreds of miles before they would reach a big city), and it is nearly impossible to blend in with the rather monolithic locals-- they almost all look alike (85% white) and they know everyone in the town, so they would be able to spot a stranger rather quickly. You should see what locals do when a tourist comes through a residential (off the main street) area.
Timothy McVeigh would have fit right in.



Tim is a bit of a hero to some of the mountainfolk around here.

We have two main types of people here... fundamentalist Mormons and mountainfolk. Both are very conservative, but in surprisingly different ways. They each have their own neighborhoods and for the most part, don't interact with each other.

[devilsadvocate]

Sounds like you live in a hotbed of dangerous paranoia.

[clocker]

Tim is a bit of a hero to some of the mountainfolk around here.

Now I'd like to bomb your town.

But you're right, what would be the point of terrorizing a town that already agrees with you?

[999969999]

Tim is a bit of a hero to some of the mountainfolk around here.

Now I'd like to bomb your town.

But you're right, what would be the point of terrorizing a town that already agrees with you?

Hey, I didn't say he was my hero.

I'm descended from the Mormon side of the town, not the mountainfolk. Mormons try to solve problems in a political manner, not through violence.

While I don't believe in the religion, I fully support the modern day Mormon community and all that for which it stands. Strong families, abhorrence of crime, and a strict constructionist view of the constitution. Mormons really help to take care of their own, and I think it helps explain why our communities are among the fastest growing communities in the western states, and why they help to determine the outcome of many of the elections in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and to a lesser extent New Mexico.


And, I really doubt the recent Pakistani bomber would agree with or like the Mormon community or even the mountainfolk hillbillies. We're not Muslims.

The reason we would not be a target for someone like him is that there would be very little name recognition value for blowing up a tiny town like Eagar (Oklahoma City has over 550,000 people in it, Eagar has less than 5000 people in it), and I think he would be discovered so quickly and watched so intently in Eagar, he would never make it out of town alive once people figured out what he was up to. Just about everyone up here has a gun and knows how to use it. It would be a bad place for a Muslim terrorist.

[devilsadvocate]

Given that for the most part suicide has been the preferred delivery method for their attacks, why would guns be a deterrent?
Our military is far better armed than your town, knows how to use those weapons and yet they are attacked.

[999969999]

Given that for the most part suicide has been the preferred delivery method for their attacks, why would guns be a deterrent?
Our military is far better armed than your town, knows how to use those weapons and yet they are attacked.


This last guy didn't want to die. He wanted to fly out of the U.S.

And still, the name recognition value is a major concern. They chose New York-- everyone in the world knows about New York. They seem to be fixated on it.

I can see Muslims around the world scratching their heads when they hear of Eagar being blown up.


The risk of detection, of getting caught, before they have a chance to set up a bomb in Eagar would be quite high. Like I said before, when a stranger comes to town, the locals watch them to see what they are up to. That would not be a good thing for a terrorist. They want the element of surprise. They wouldn't get that in Eagar.

[clocker]

Mormons try to solve problems in a political manner, not through violence.

While I don't believe in the religion, I fully support the modern day Mormon community and all that for which it stands. Strong families, abhorrence of crime, and a strict constructionist view of the constitution. Mormons really help to take care of their own, and I think it helps explain why our communities are among the fastest growing communities in the western states, and why they help to determine the outcome of many of the elections in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and to a lesser extent New Mexico.

You forgot their brilliant work on Prop 8 in California.

[999969999]

Mormons try to solve problems in a political manner, not through violence.

While I don't believe in the religion, I fully support the modern day Mormon community and all that for which it stands. Strong families, abhorrence of crime, and a strict constructionist view of the constitution. Mormons really help to take care of their own, and I think it helps explain why our communities are among the fastest growing communities in the western states, and why they help to determine the outcome of many of the elections in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and to a lesser extent New Mexico.

You forgot their brilliant work on Prop 8 in California.

Hey, it didn't outlaw homosexuality, it just closed the door on them getting married and pretending to be normal. They can still do whatever they want behind closed doors in their bedrooms, and they can still live together.

Most of them don't even want to get married. Their "relationships" don't tend to last that long anyways.

Forget about the religious aspect of it. I don't care about that. Look at it from a scientific view. They can't reproduce. They can never be a normal family.

[clocker]

Did you learn that from your fabulous public schools or from "some guy" on talk radio?

For a kid in a hick town you certainly are worldly, what with knowing how gays think and a personal friend of Obama's and all.

[MagicNakor]

Did you hear that infertile men and women? Do you understand people that don't want children? You will never be normal. You are not entitled to any human companionship or comfort in your life. "Relationships" are for the sole purpose of procreation. If you straight people are married and can't/won't have children, it is your moral obligation to divorce and move into separate domiciles where, if you are very lucky, you will be permitted a goldfish.

:shuriken:

[999969999]

Did you hear that infertile men and women? Do you understand people that don't want children? You will never be normal. You are not entitled to any human companionship or comfort in your life. "Relationships" are for the sole purpose of procreation. If you straight people are married and can't/won't have children, it is your moral obligation to divorce and move into separate domiciles where, if you are very lucky, you will be permitted a goldfish.

:shuriken:

Even with the horribly scary wicked and evil Prop 8, if you lived in California right now, you could live with whoever you want to live with. Have fun! Knock yourself out! Just don't expect everyone to think what you are doing is normal and wonderful.

I pesonally don't care what you do behind closed doors. That's your private business.

But when you try to make it a legal marriage, it becomes a public issue, with things like adoption rights, and so forth. I don't like the idea of children being raised in a "family" like that.

Maybe you're the one who should get a goldfish.

As soon as I get married to my girlfriend, I plan on having my own children. No need for goldfish.

[clocker]

Even with the horribly scary wicked and evil Prop 8, if you lived in California right now, you could live with whoever you want to live with. Have fun! Knock yourself out! Just don't expect everyone to think what you are doing is normal and wonderful. As soon as I get married to my girlfriend, I plan on having my own children. No need for goldfish.
You have a woefully inadequate appreciation of what "normal" is.

Part of that is no doubt due to the callowness of yoot but I fear a large part is simply self-induced/perpetuated ignorance.

[MagicNakor]

I have no inclination of moving to California; I live in a country that doesn't dole out legal and civil rights based upon sexual orientation. What you appear to not realise is that there is far more conferred with the status of marriage than the ability to have children (which doesn't require marriage at all!). The recent example of outrageous actions committed by officials in Sonoma County against Clay Greene should be enough to illustrate the concept.

If your concern is "for the children!" then how do you reconcile that the majority of child abuse cases involve "traditional" families? That children in foster homes (also set in the "traditional" manner) are more likely to be abused? That purporters of child abuse in religious communities are most often youth pastors or priests?

You will be very hard-pressed to find a child being abused in a gay household due to the nature of the adoption process. It is lengthy, expensive and humiliating. If one's goal is to abuse children, there are easier ways to go about it, irrespective of the fact that most child abusers are not homosexual.

As for me, my complex doesn't allow pets. But there is an illegal alien living downstairs. I would complain but then I would be subject to the howlings of the ACLU. Marmalade tabby is a protected status lazing-cat.

:shuriken:


Greene vs Sonoma CountyClay and his partner of 20 years, Harold, lived in California. Clay and Harold made diligent efforts to protect their legal rights, and had their legal paperwork in place—wills, powers of attorney, and medical directives, all naming each other. Harold was 88 years old and in frail medical condition, but still living at home with Clay, 77, who was in good health.

One evening, Harold fell down the front steps of their home and was taken to the hospital. Based on their medical directives alone, Clay should have been consulted in Harold’s care from the first moment. Tragically, county and health care workers instead refused to allow Clay to see Harold in the hospital. The county then ultimately went one step further by isolating the couple from each other, placing the men in separate nursing homes.

Ignoring Clay’s significant role in Harold’s life, the county continued to treat Harold like he had no family and went to court seeking the power to make financial decisions on his behalf. Outrageously, the county represented to the judge that Clay was merely Harold’s “roommate.” The court denied their efforts, but did grant the county limited access to one of Harold’s bank accounts to pay for his care.

What happened next is even more chilling: without authority, without determining the value of Clay and Harold’s possessions accumulated over the course of their 20 years together or making any effort to determine which items belonged to whom, the county took everything Harold and Clay owned and auctioned off all of their belongings. Adding further insult to grave injury, the county removed Clay from his home and confined him to a nursing home against his will. The county workers then terminated Clay and Harold's lease and surrendered the home they had shared for many years to the landlord.

Three months after he was hospitalized, Harold died in the nursing home. Because of the county’s actions, Clay missed the final months he should have had with his partner of 20 years. Compounding this tragedy, Clay has literally nothing left of the home he had shared with Harold or the life he was living up until the day that Harold fell, because he has been unable to recover any of his property. The only memento Clay has is a photo album that Harold painstakingly put together for Clay during the last three months of his life.