PDA

View Full Version : Poor Obama



999969999
09-02-2010, 03:39 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100902/us_time/08599201562900

"The Barack Obama that most Hoosiers remember voting for can still be found on YouTube. He stands before a cheering Elkhart high school gymnasium in August 2008, tireless, aspirational, promising a new America of jobs and hope. "We can choose another future," says the newcomer with the funny name. "So I ask you to join me."

Today that view of Obama is harder to find in Indiana. A couple of weeks back and a dozen miles west of Elkhart, hundreds gathered in another school gym - except this time it was for a job fair. With the local unemployment rate above 12% and rising again this summer, about a third of the employer display tables stood empty. Julie Griffin, who voted for Obama in '08, sat down at the room's edge, well dressed and discouraged. After 23 years as a payroll administrator at a local RV plant, she got laid off 18 months ago. "Really, what has he been doing?" she said when I asked about Obama's efforts to help people like her. "I guess I don't know what he is doing." (See TIME's 2008 Person of the Year: Barack Obama.)

Across the gym floor, Joe Donnelly, Elkhart's pro-life, pro-gun Democratic Congressman, worked the crowd. He was part of the moderate wave that won Congress for Nancy Pelosi in '06, and he was re-elected with 67% of the vote while campaigning for Obama in '08. The President has since returned to the region three times, but Donnelly is nonetheless fighting for his political life. In a recent television ad, an unflattering photo of Obama and Pelosi flashes while Donnelly condemns "the Washington crowd." This is basically a Democratic campaign slogan now: Don't blame me for Obama and Pelosi. "I'm not one of them," Donnelly told me when I caught up with him. "I'm one of us."

This shift in perception - from Obama as political savior to Obama as creature of Washington - can be seen elsewhere. When Obama arrived in office in January '09, his Gallup approval rating stood at 68%, a high for a newly elected leader not seen since John Kennedy in 1961. Today Obama's job approval has been hovering in the mid-40s, which means that at least 1 in 4 Americans has changed his or her mind. The plunge has been particularly dramatic among independents, whites and those under age 30. With midterm elections just nine weeks off, instead of the generational transformation some Democrats predicted after 2008, the President's party teeters on the brink of a broad setback in November, including the possible loss of both houses of Congress. By a 10-point margin, people say they will vote for Republicans over Democrats in Congress, the largest such gap ever recorded by Gallup. (See pictures of Barack Obama behind the scenes on Inauguration Day.)

White House aides explain this change as a largely inevitable reflection of the cycles of history. Midterms are almost always bad for first-term Presidents, and worse in hard times. "The public is rightly frustrated and angry with the economy," says Dan Pfeiffer, Obama's communications director, explaining the White House line. "There is no small tactical shift we could have made at any point that would have solved that problem." In more confiding moments, aides admit that the peak of Obama's popularity may have been inflated, a fleeting result of elation at the prospect of change and national pride in electing the first African-American President. As one White House aide puts it, "It was sort of fake."

But while these explanations may be valid, they are also incomplete. A sense of disappointment, bordering on betrayal, has been growing across the country, especially in moderate states like Indiana, where people now openly say they didn't quite understand the President they voted for in 2008. The fear most often expressed is that Obama is taking the country somewhere they don't want to go. "We bought what he said. He offered a lot of hope," says Fred Ferlic, an Obama voter and orthopedic surgeon in South Bend who has since soured on his choice. Ferlic talks about the messy compromises in health care reform, his sense of an inhospitable business climate and the growth of government spending under Obama. "He's trying to Europeanize us, and the Europeans are going the other way," continues Ferlic, a former Democratic campaign donor who plans to vote Republican this year. "The entire American spirit is being broken."

One explanation for Obama's steep decline is that his presidency rests on what Gallup's Frank Newport calls a "paradox" between Obama and the electorate. In 2008, Newport notes, trust in the federal government was at a historic low, dropping to around 25%, where it still remains. Yet Obama has offered government as the primary solution to most of the nation's woes, calling for big new investments in health care, education, infrastructure and energy. Some voters bucked at the incongruity, repeatedly telling pollsters that even programs that have clearly helped the economy, like the $787 billion stimulus, did no such thing. Meanwhile, the resulting spike in deficits, which has been greatly magnified by tax revenue lost to the economic downturn, has spooked a broad sweep of the country, which simply does not trust Washington to responsibly handle such a massive liability.

See TIME's Pictures of the Week.

See the Cartoons of the Week.


The Overreach
Rather than address these concerns as the economic crisis grew, Obama made a conscious choice to go big with government reforms of health care and energy. The bailouts of the auto companies, the rescue of Wall Street and the new regulation of banks and the financial industry only deepened the public's skepticism, especially among independent voters. Rather than dwell on the political problems, the President pushed his team forward, believing, in the words of top adviser David Axelrod, that "ultimately the best politics was to do that which he thought was right."

It wasn't long before deep cracks in Obama's coalition began to appear. This past June, Peter Brodnitz of the Benenson Strategy Group, a firm that also polls for the White House, asked voters which they preferred: "new government investments" or "cutting taxes for business" as the better approach to jump-start job creation. Even among those who voted for Obama, nearly 38% preferred tax cuts. When Brodnitz offered a choice between tax cuts to reduce the deficit and investments in "research, innovation and new technologies," one-third of Obama voters chose the cuts. The evidence throughout the poll, commissioned by the think tank Third Way, was unmistakable: roughly 1 in 3 of the President's 2008 supporters had serious questions about government spending solutions for the economy. In Nevada, a state Obama won with 55% of the vote, only 29% of likely voters this year think the President's actions have helped the economy, according to a recent poll by Mason-Dixon Polling & Research. "A lot of this was really inevitable, or at least pretty predictable," says Indiana Senator and former governor Evan Bayh, a Democratic expert at getting elected in the Rust Belt. "We have a lot of government activism at a time when skepticism of government efficiency is at an all-time high." (See picutres of Obama's first year in the White House.)

It's not as if the White House didn't see this coming. After a meeting in December 2008 about the severity of the economic crisis, Axelrod pulled Obama aside. He recalls saying, "Enjoy these great poll numbers you have, because two years from now, they are not going to look anything like this." But even as Obama aides were aware of a growing disconnect, it didn't seem to worry their boss. Instead, the ambitious legislative goals usually trumped other priorities. Both in the original stimulus package and then in the health care and energy measures, the White House ceded most of its clout to the liberal lions who controlled the Democratic majorities in the House and Senate. That maneuver helped assure passage of reforms, but it also confirmed some of the worst fears about how Washington works. "I'd rather be a one-term President and do big things than a two-term President and just do small things," he told his team after Republican Scott Brown was elected Senator in liberal Massachusetts and some in the Administration suggested pulling back on health reform.

For Democrats in conservative districts, like Representative Jason Altmire in western Pennsylvania, the President's approach always spelled trouble. "Even though the leaders in Congress understood that a lot of these things are not going to be popular, they were at a point in their careers where they realized that this is what they have been waiting for," says Altmire, who is favored to win this year, in part because he voted against most of the President's agenda, including health reform. "It was true overreach."

For someone who so carefully read the political mood as a candidate, Obama has been unexpectedly passive at moments as President. Whereas other Democrats had hoped to spend the late summer talking about two things - jobs and the unpopularity of many Republican policies - the White House has been distracted by a string of unrelated issues, from immigration reform to a mishandled dismissal of a longtime USDA official to the furor over the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero. On Aug. 31, Obama gave a prime-time speech about the partial troop pullout from Iraq, touching on jobs only tangentially, before spending the following day in an intensive effort to restart the Middle East peace process. "It is inconceivable that a team so disciplined during the presidential campaign can't carry a message with the bully pulpit of the White House," says one Democratic strategist working on the midterm elections. "It's politically irresponsible, and Americans have little patience for it."

See TIME's Pictures of the Week.

See the Cartoons of the Week.


As his poll numbers fell, Obama responded with his perpetual cool. His appeals to the grass-roots army that he started, through online videos for Organizing for America, took on a formal, emotionless tone. He acted less like an action-oriented President than a Prime Minister overseeing some vast but balky legislative machinery. When challenged about his declining popularity, the President tended to deflect the blame - to the state of the economy, the ferocity of the news cycle and right-wing misinformation campaigns. Aides treated the problem as a communications concern more than a policy matter. They increased his travel schedule to key states and limited his prime-time addresses. They struggled to explain large, unpopular legislative packages to the American people, who opposed the measures despite supporting many of the component parts, like extending health insurance to patients with pre-existing conditions or preventing teacher layoffs. "When you package it all together, it can be too big to succeed as a public-relations matter," says Axelrod.

Instead of shifting course, Obama spoke dismissively about Republican efforts to play "short-term politics." He continued the near weekly visits to new green energy manufacturing plants, repeating promises of an economic rebirth that remains, for many, months or years away. And he missed opportunities to strengthen his connections with his supporters: local political capos complained privately that Obama had a tendency to touch down in their backyards, give a speech and scoot after less than an hour. By the end of the summer, the disconnect had grown so severe that only 1 in 3 Americans in a Pew poll accurately identified him as a Christian, down from 51% in October 2008. At the same time, the base voters Obama had energized so well in '08 went back into hibernation. They were nowhere to be found in the '09 gubernatorial elections in New Jersey and Virginia, tracking instead with pre-Obama historical patterns. While liberals attacked him from the left on cable television, many of his core supporters weren't paying attention. In a rich irony, many of the same groups Obama turned out for the first time in record numbers had suffered the most from the recession and were the most likely to tune politics out. "One of the challenges on the Democratic side is, it's been very hard for [voters] to make connections between what is happening in Washington and what is happening in their lives," says Anna Greenberg, a Democratic pollster. (See a video about the Unemployment Olympics.)

Can He Rebalance?
At the White House, advisers take comfort in the fact that at this point in their presidencies, both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton scored slightly lower approval ratings than Obama. And the dominant analogy for the past few months has focused not on 1994, when Clinton lost a Democratic Congress in a huge Republican wave, but on '82, when Reagan lost just 26 seats in the House. Like Obama, Reagan was facing rising discontent at the midterm, driven by huge unemployment numbers that peaked at 10.8% at year's end. But as the economy rebounded, Reagan's governing philosophy, "Stay the course," was vindicated. He won re-election by an enormous margin.

Outside the White House, only a few of the President's Democratic allies take much solace in this history, in part because the current economic slump appears far more lasting than the one Reagan faced. Most experts from both parties say Obama will have to rebalance his politics in 2011 to be re-elected in '12. That's partly because of the growing belief that the Republicans will win the House in November and, if their stars align, have a good shot at taking the Senate as well. Elsewhere, in state houses and in governors' races, Republicans are poised for a broad comeback. Regardless of the exact outcome, it is clear that Obama's brief window of one-party rule has closed. That outcome alone may vindicate Obama's decision to make the massive reforms while he still had the votes. It will never be known for certain just how much a more centrist legislative strategy would have improved the Democrats' midterm outlook.

But two years is the equivalent of multiple lifetimes in politics, and there are signs that Obama is already pivoting away from plans to engineer massive reforms in energy policy, global-warming response and immigration law to less-stirring, more-popular challenges like reducing the deficit and reforming taxation and entitlements. What little margins Obama does have to push major reforms through are sure to shrink away in the coming months. "I think the next couple of years, we've got to focus on debt and deficits," Obama told NBC News after his summer vacation. "We've got to focus on making sure that we make the recovery stronger. And a lot of that is attracting private investment."

Back in Indiana, the evidence of Obama's political failure is particularly glaring. During his early, heady days in office, the President decided to make Elkhart a personal cause. A once thriving manufacturing center of 50,000 on the Michigan-Indiana border, famous for its musical instruments and recreational vehicles, the Elkhart region saw the steepest jump in unemployment of any metropolitan area in the nation during the economic crisis. That helped Obama win Donnelly's district by 9 points, nearly George W. Bush's margin in 2004, and Obama returned to Elkhart just weeks after taking office. "I promised you back then that if elected President, I would do everything I could to help this community recover," he announced. "And that's why I've come back today."

Since then, he has been back twice more, once to speak at Notre Dame and once to herald a new electric-vehicle plant that would be built with federal support. In the southern end of the district, thousands of jobs at parts plants were saved when Obama decided to bail out the auto companies.

Yet all of Obama's personal and financial appeals have been swamped by the depth of the recession and have had little visible effect. Donnelly, who flies home every weekend to work in his district, felt obliged to run against Obama to save his job. And his Republican opponent, Jackie Walorski, says she is often approached by Obama voters who want to vent. "This has burned people," she says. "Their words, not mine: 'Betrayed by the health care vote.' 'What are they thinking when it comes to spending?' 'Broken promises when it comes to jobs.'" At one recent Walorski house party, held at dusk beside a cornfield, two attendees, Matthew and Frances Napieralski, identified themselves as former supporters of the President. "He's not what I voted for," said Matthew, who runs a plastic-injection-molding shop in town. "It's a shame that they led us to believe one thing," said Frances, "and then everything changes."

For now, Obama's aides hope that the controversial reforms in health care and financial rules will produce benefits felt by voters, if not by November 2010, then two years later. That would vindicate the President's vision of government as a solution and not just a problem. Even in Indiana, the disappointment is matched by a real yearning for a leader who can make a difference. "I think he's trying," says Griffin, the laid-off payroll administrator who said she didn't know what Obama had done for her. "Nobody can turn it around overnight."






--Don't you just feel so sorry for him?

j2k4
09-02-2010, 08:55 PM
Do I take all that to mean that TIME is of the opinion young Barry is faltering.

Tutela
09-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Not really no, but at the same time, I don't hate him. Surely it's not all HIS fault. he can make decisions, but in the end, it's up to the people to act on these decisions, same ges for everywhere in the world really.

j2k4
09-03-2010, 09:20 PM
Not really no, but at the same time, I don't hate him. Surely it's not all HIS fault. he can make decisions, but in the end, it's up to the people to act on these decisions, same ges for everywhere in the world really.

I've emboldened a section I would like you to explain a bit further.

I wonder what you think "...it's up to the people to act..." actually means?

I don't know how they do things in your little corner, but the time for the people to act here will be at the voting booth this fall.

The only other option "for the people" is revolution.

megabyteme
09-04-2010, 10:05 AM
Here's where I have the greatest difficulty- I never trusted Obama. I don't see him as a crook, but never believed in "The Dream". However, who does the Right have who will garner support, AND be able to do any better?

Even with "revolution" as an option, who will guide us to better days?

j2k4
09-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Here's where I have the greatest difficulty- I never trusted Obama. I don't see him as a crook, but never believed in "The Dream". However, who does the Right have who will garner support, AND be able to do any better?

Even with "revolution" as an option, who will guide us to better days?

Given the currently favored tactic of 'personal destruction', I believe the prospects of viable candidates (or revolutionary leaders, for that matter) are best served by keeping a low profile.

They will emerge as events dictate.

megabyteme
09-04-2010, 10:16 PM
I hope you are right. We haven't seen anyone on center stage (left or right) who has shown to be anything better than, "I'm NOT the other guy" for a long, long time...

suz5cam
09-14-2010, 10:00 PM
I use Telonu for my job searching and getting the low down on a company, but they now have have a political section and I looked up Obama and it is a great opinion war. I Particularly thought this one stood out:

"Obama was elected by offering false hope and false promise to an angry, emotional and largely uninformed electorate. His modern day smoke & mirrors show suckered in the naive and ignorant like flies to honey. And many, who understand zilch about politics continue to blindly worship this deceitful fraud as he plunders along."

http://www.telonu.com/reviews/barack-obama-president

Now I didn't vote for Barry Obama, but I think this idea that he is misleading the poor liberals is false. I think he is simply a moderate Dem, which 20 years ago meant he would have been a moderate Republican.

I always viewed him this way, I think their are a lot more people who are liberal - think Rachel Maddow (I should look her up on telonu, I can just imagine...).

clocker
09-16-2010, 12:15 PM
I use Telonu for my job searching and getting the low down on a company, but they now have have a political section and I looked up Obama and it is a great opinion war. I Particularly thought this one stood out:

"Obama was elected by offering false hope and false promise to an angry, emotional and largely uninformed electorate. His modern day smoke & mirrors show suckered in the naive and ignorant like flies to honey. And many, who understand zilch about politics continue to blindly worship this deceitful fraud as he plunders along."

Who wrote that, Newt Gingrich?

charliebee
09-16-2010, 12:28 PM
"Obama was elected by offering false hope and false promise to an angry, emotional and largely uninformed electorate. His modern day smoke & mirrors show suckered in the naive and ignorant like flies to honey. And many, who understand zilch about politics continue to blindly worship this deceitful fraud as he plunders along.

Hmm I just looked up "Any Politician Who Ever Lived" in the dictionary and that's exactly the definition that came up!

RapidSpeeds
09-23-2010, 07:41 PM
I use Telonu for my job searching and getting the low down on a company, but they now have have a political section and I looked up Obama and it is a great opinion war. I Particularly thought this one stood out:

"Obama was elected by offering false hope and false promise to an angry, emotional and largely uninformed electorate. His modern day smoke & mirrors show suckered in the naive and ignorant like flies to honey. And many, who understand zilch about politics continue to blindly worship this deceitful fraud as he plunders along."

Who wrote that, Newt Gingrich?

Lmfao - best thing I have heard all day.

However, I do concur ;)

Shinzen
10-31-2010, 02:00 AM
[QUOTE=Tutela;3505558]

I wonder what you think "...it's up to the people to act..." actually means?


He Probably means obama is taking initiatives but authorities or the guys below him are not enforcing them properly i guess

bigboab
10-31-2010, 08:27 AM
Not really no, but at the same time, I don't hate him. Surely it's not all HIS fault. he can make decisions, but in the end, it's up to the people to act on these decisions, same ges for everywhere in the world really.

I've emboldened a section I would like you to explain a bit further.

I wonder what you think "...it's up to the people to act..." actually means?

I don't know how they do things in your little corner, but the time for the people to act here will be at the voting booth this fall.

The only other option "for the people" is revolution.

Are you in the garage oiling up your musket Kev? It is not the redcoats you are fighting this time. Just the reds, eh?

I could be wrong but I don't remember the Democrats talking of revolution when they were suffering under any Bush.:whistling

j2k4
10-31-2010, 03:33 PM
I've emboldened a section I would like you to explain a bit further.

I wonder what you think "...it's up to the people to act..." actually means?

I don't know how they do things in your little corner, but the time for the people to act here will be at the voting booth this fall.

The only other option "for the people" is revolution.

Are you in the garage oiling up your musket Kev? It is not the redcoats you are fighting this time. Just the reds, eh?

I could be wrong but I don't remember the Democrats talking of revoulution when they were suffering under any Bush.:whistling

The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.

Four more years of Obama-led complete democrat control don't suit the majority of Americans.

Is revolution in the offing?

We may just see.

devilsadvocate
10-31-2010, 04:52 PM
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.


Keeping up with those chain e.mails I see.

l33tpirata13
10-31-2010, 05:41 PM
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.

Four more years of Obama-led complete democrat control don't suit the majority of Americans.

Is revolution in the offing?

We may just see.

Not only are you homophobic, but now you wanna pretend like you KNOW what Chicago politics are? You're too too funny. It's very amusing to see outsiders try and figure it out.

j2k4
10-31-2010, 07:27 PM
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.


Keeping up with those chain e.mails I see.

Nope.

I delete.

You'll have to disprove my suppositions another way if you want to take this further.



The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.

Four more years of Obama-led complete democrat control don't suit the majority of Americans.

Is revolution in the offing?

We may just see. Not only are you homophobic, but now you wanna pretend like you KNOW what Chicago politics are? You're too too funny. It's very amusing to see outsiders try and figure it out.

Homophobic?

How so?

I was referring to Obama.

Are you saying that he is gay?

clocker
10-31-2010, 10:43 PM
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.

Four more years of Obama-led complete democrat control don't suit the majority of Americans.

Is revolution in the offing?

We may just see.
Off your meds again I see, the fertile imagination running unleashed.

devilsadvocate
10-31-2010, 10:55 PM
Nope.

I delete.

You'll have to disprove my suppositions another way if you want to take this further.


So you admit you make these claims by assumption and not actual evidence?

I don't have to disprove anything, you are the one that made the claims so what factual evidence do you have?

All I see is gossip.

j2k4
11-01-2010, 12:00 AM
Nope.

I delete.

You'll have to disprove my suppositions another way if you want to take this further.


So you admit you make these claims by assumption and not actual evidence?

I don't have to disprove anything, you are the one that made the claims so what factual evidence do you have?

All I see is gossip.

Good for you - that means that you read them; I do not.

I have "actual evidence" that this is what I do.

If you would like to pay your way to my door (at the appropriate hour, of course), you can "actually" watch me do it.

j2k4
11-01-2010, 12:03 AM
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

Let's see the republicans try to get away with that.

Four more years of Obama-led complete democrat control don't suit the majority of Americans.

Is revolution in the offing?

We may just see.
Off your meds again I see, the fertile imagination running unleashed.

What meds would these be?

Nothing at all about me has been "unleashed" for a decade or more.

Bad things happen; women and children are affected.

devilsadvocate
11-01-2010, 02:00 AM
So you admit you make these claims by assumption and not actual evidence?

I don't have to disprove anything, you are the one that made the claims so what factual evidence do you have?

All I see is gossip.

Good for you - that means that you read them; I do not.

I have "actual evidence" that this is what I do.

If you would like to pay your way to my door (at the appropriate hour, of course), you can "actually" watch me do it.
That's your worst dodge yet.

What evidence do you have of this
The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

j2k4
11-01-2010, 03:13 AM
What evidence do you have of this


The dead are preparing to vote all over the country - Chicago-style politics, don't you know.

The games already being played with absentee and military ballots indicate the dems are going to attempt to thieve some elections.

Obama's butt-buddies in the SEIU actually run the elections in Nevada, ffs.

The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.

As to the rest, it is called prognostication; something you yourself eschew as risky.

clocker
11-01-2010, 11:12 AM
The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.


Probably true.
Then again, our consumable media (I prefer outlets with a higher bran content) doesn't require tin foil hats and automatic weapons.

devilsadvocate
11-01-2010, 01:11 PM
The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.

As to the rest, it is called prognostication; something you yourself eschew as risky.
The "games" are speculation, suspecting something and that something actually occurring are two different things.

As for "the rest" The SEIU isn't "running" any elections. They have a maintenance contract in one district.

j2k4
11-01-2010, 04:37 PM
The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.

As to the rest, it is called prognostication; something you yourself eschew as risky.
The "games" are speculation, suspecting something and that something actually occurring are two different things.

As for "the rest" The SEIU isn't "running" any elections. They have a maintenance contract in one district.

Here's one that must be a lie, huh?

Certainly wouldn't bother someone like yourself-

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/01/illinois-challenge-military-ballots

Funny that no dems are screaming about 'voters rights' and denial of same.

j2k4
11-01-2010, 04:39 PM
The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.


Probably true.
Then again, our consumable media (I prefer outlets with a higher bran content) doesn't require tin foil hats and automatic weapons.


Conservatives = weapons

Liberals = tin-foil headware

clocker
11-01-2010, 07:00 PM
Just so.
Dick Cheney comes to mind when I think of "conservatives + weapons" for some reason.

Thanks for the memories.

devilsadvocate
11-01-2010, 07:38 PM
The "games" are speculation, suspecting something and that something actually occurring are two different things.

As for "the rest" The SEIU isn't "running" any elections. They have a maintenance contract in one district.

Here's one that must be a lie, huh?

Certainly wouldn't bother someone like yourself-

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/01/illinois-challenge-military-ballots

Funny that no dems are screaming about 'voters rights' and denial of same.

So a republican calling for an investigation must mean it's certain that someone is deliberately trying to prevent absentee votes? or does it just show that we have incompetence and an imperfect delivery system? We could run with examples of suspected attempted voter suppression from all sides of the political spectrum, doesn't make it so, does it?

Michelle Bachmann called for investigations of lawmakers to "expose" their anti Americanism, so that must mean they are anti American.

Is sheriff Arpaio trying to stop illegals from voting or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters?

j2k4
11-01-2010, 11:11 PM
Here's one that must be a lie, huh?

Certainly wouldn't bother someone like yourself-

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/01/illinois-challenge-military-ballots

Funny that no dems are screaming about 'voters rights' and denial of same.

So a republican calling for an investigation must mean it's certain that someone is deliberately trying to prevent absentee votes? or does it just show that we have incompetence and an imperfect delivery system? We could run with examples of suspected attempted voter suppression from all sides of the political spectrum, doesn't make it so, does it?

Michelle Bachmann called for investigations of lawmakers to "expose" their anti Americanism, so that must mean they are anti American.

Is sheriff Arpaio trying to stop illegals from voting or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters?

I'll check back in a few days to see if you have gotten a grasp on reality.

999969999
11-03-2010, 03:25 PM
Here's one that must be a lie, huh?

Certainly wouldn't bother someone like yourself-

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/01/illinois-challenge-military-ballots

Funny that no dems are screaming about 'voters rights' and denial of same.

So a republican calling for an investigation must mean it's certain that someone is deliberately trying to prevent absentee votes? or does it just show that we have incompetence and an imperfect delivery system? We could run with examples of suspected attempted voter suppression from all sides of the political spectrum, doesn't make it so, does it?

Michelle Bachmann called for investigations of lawmakers to "expose" their anti Americanism, so that must mean they are anti American.

Is sheriff Arpaio trying to stop illegals from voting or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters?

Lucifer, exactly what proof do you have that Arpaio is doing anything at all to stop Hispanics from voting?

999969999
11-03-2010, 03:29 PM
The "games" are probably not being reported in the media you consume.


Probably true.
Then again, our consumable media (I prefer outlets with a higher bran content) doesn't require tin foil hats and automatic weapons.

Clocky, you made this too easy for me. That's exactly the problem with "mainstream" (read leftist) media. It has way too much bran, and we all know what happens when you eat too much bran, don't we?

devilsadvocate
11-03-2010, 06:03 PM
So a republican calling for an investigation must mean it's certain that someone is deliberately trying to prevent absentee votes? or does it just show that we have incompetence and an imperfect delivery system? We could run with examples of suspected attempted voter suppression from all sides of the political spectrum, doesn't make it so, does it?

Michelle Bachmann called for investigations of lawmakers to "expose" their anti Americanism, so that must mean they are anti American.

Is sheriff Arpaio trying to stop illegals from voting or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters?

Lucifer, exactly what proof do you have that Arpaio is doing anything at all to stop Hispanics from voting?

Firstly look up devils advocate, both the origin of the title and the modern usage. It doesn't mean I'm Lucifer. I don't always play the roll but I do often.

If you look at the context of the post you will see that it's about what's suggested and what's reality not being the same thing. It is a QUESTION not a statement.

In Arpaio's case, which I chose as an example purely to test if j2k4 only has his left eye open,(random link) (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/sheriff_joe_picks_up_anti-voter_fraud_crusade.php?ref=fpb) there is a reality of poll watching. Is his plan to prevent illegal voters or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters? My post was responding to j2k4 suspicions about democratic operatives trying to steal the election, to which he offered no evidence, rather simply implied it's because the are democrats. So you see it is an example of the same thing. Prognostication doesn't equal reality.

devilsadvocate
11-03-2010, 06:06 PM
UOTE]

It has way too much bran, and we all know what happens when you eat too much bran, don't we?

Quite telling after you admitted to living on a mostly vegetarian diet

j2k4
11-03-2010, 08:42 PM
In Arpaio's case, which I chose as an example purely to test if j2k4 only has his left eye open,(random link) (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/sheriff_joe_picks_up_anti-voter_fraud_crusade.php?ref=fpb) there is a reality of poll watching. Is his plan to prevent illegal voters or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters? My post was responding to j2k4 suspicions about democratic operatives trying to steal the election, to which he offered no evidence, rather simply implied it's because the are democrats. So you see it is an example of the same thing. Prognostication doesn't equal reality.

Good Lord.

If I say the sky is - generally - blue, do you need to check?

What brand of naivete are you possessed of?

I don't recall your vintage, but there were, once upon a time, two threads bouncing up-and-down in here, one dedicated to democrat gaffes, the other to the republican variety.

I posted about republican fuck-ups about as often as anyone else - that made me a conservative criticizing republicans.

Most of the democrat thread's posts were mine as well, but there was always a distinct paucity of liberals/democrats offered up by liberals/democrats.

You fucking people (and by that I mean YOU, specifically) never, ever-ever-ever-never-ever-never acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles.

Never, fucking, ever.

Then you have the fucking nerve to question my eyesight?

You have got some fucking nerve, chum.

999969999
11-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Lucifer, exactly what proof do you have that Arpaio is doing anything at all to stop Hispanics from voting?

Firstly look up devils advocate, both the origin of the title and the modern usage. It doesn't mean I'm Lucifer. I don't always play the roll but I do often.

If you look at the context of the post you will see that it's about what's suggested and what's reality not being the same thing. It is a QUESTION not a statement.

In Arpaio's case, which I chose as an example purely to test if j2k4 only has his left eye open,(random link) (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/sheriff_joe_picks_up_anti-voter_fraud_crusade.php?ref=fpb) there is a reality of poll watching. Is his plan to prevent illegal voters or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters? My post was responding to j2k4 suspicions about democratic operatives trying to steal the election, to which he offered no evidence, rather simply implied it's because the are democrats. So you see it is an example of the same thing. Prognostication doesn't equal reality.

Ah! I looked it up, and I see what you mean. You're not Satanic, you just like arguing.

Of course, I don't believe Lucifer ever existed. Just another religious myth.

But, if Lucifer did exist, I think the two of you would be pretty good friends. I think the two of you would be on the same side most of the time.

So, I'm going to keep calling you Lucifer. I still think it fits you. Okay?

999969999
11-03-2010, 10:17 PM
UOTE]

It has way too much bran, and we all know what happens when you eat too much bran, don't we?

Quite telling after you admitted to living on a mostly vegetarian diet

Um, you do realize that white bread is also a vegetarian food, too, right?

devilsadvocate
11-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Good Lord.

If I say the sky is - generally - blue, do you need to check?

What brand of naivete are you possessed of?

I don't recall your vintage, but there were, once upon a time, two threads bouncing up-and-down in here, one dedicated to democrat gaffes, the other to the republican variety.

I posted about republican fuck-ups about as often as anyone else - that made me a conservative criticizing republicans.

Most of the democrat thread's posts were mine as well, but there was always a distinct paucity of liberals/democrats offered up by liberals/democrats.

You fucking people (and by that I mean YOU, specifically) never, ever-ever-ever-never-ever-never acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles.

Never, fucking, ever.

Then you have the fucking nerve to question my eyesight?

You have got some fucking nerve, chum.



Do you have any actual evidence of this or is it just the usual "hunch" ?

999969999
11-03-2010, 10:23 PM
Good Lord.

If I say the sky is - generally - blue, do you need to check?

What brand of naivete are you possessed of?

I don't recall your vintage, but there were, once upon a time, two threads bouncing up-and-down in here, one dedicated to democrat gaffes, the other to the republican variety.

I posted about republican fuck-ups about as often as anyone else - that made me a conservative criticizing republicans.

Most of the democrat thread's posts were mine as well, but there was always a distinct paucity of liberals/democrats offered up by liberals/democrats.

You fucking people (and by that I mean YOU, specifically) never, ever-ever-ever-never-ever-never acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles.

Never, fucking, ever.

Then you have the fucking nerve to question my eyesight?

You have got some fucking nerve, chum.



Do you have any actual evidence of this or is it just the usual "hunch" ?

Lucifer, why don't you provide us with some proof from one of your own posts where you "acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles."

devilsadvocate
11-03-2010, 10:32 PM
Ah! I looked it up, and I see what you mean. You're not Satanic, you just like arguing.
Nope, I like looking for weak links in an argument unfortunately, more often I looking at factual inaccuracies in statements.
Of course, I don't believe Lucifer ever existed. Just another religious myth.

But, if Lucifer did exist, I think the two of you would be pretty good friends. I think the two of you would be on the same side most of the time.
On what do you base this?

So, I'm going to keep calling you Lucifer. I still think it fits you. Okay?

Ah, one size fits all grouping, I see. I look forward to being generalized.

devilsadvocate
11-03-2010, 10:34 PM
Lucifer, why don't you provide us with some proof from one of your own posts where you "acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles."

Because it's the job of the accuser to lay out the evidence.

j2k4
11-04-2010, 12:47 AM
Ah, one size fits all grouping, I see. I look forward to being generalized.

It's self-inflicted in your case, Lucy.

999969999
11-04-2010, 03:35 PM
ah, one size fits all grouping, i see. I look forward to being generalized.

it's self-inflicted in your case, lucy.

lol!

clocker
11-05-2010, 02:15 AM
Gee, I didn't see any reference to Black Panthers or ACORN...you sure that was the real Faux, Kev?

So, a right wing douchenozzle has called for an investigation based on nothing...no evidence of disenfranchised voters whatsoever...and Kev inflates it into proof of an organized and pervasive Democratic attempt to steal the election.
Christ, you make Chicken Little appear calm in comparison.

999969999
11-05-2010, 06:18 PM
Lucifer, why don't you provide us with some proof from one of your own posts where you "acknowledge democrat hypocrisy, corruption, outright lies, or any other of their myriad human foibles."

Because it's the job of the accuser to lay out the evidence.

Or because you can't find any.

l33tpirata13
11-05-2010, 09:51 PM
So a republican calling for an investigation must mean it's certain that someone is deliberately trying to prevent absentee votes? or does it just show that we have incompetence and an imperfect delivery system? We could run with examples of suspected attempted voter suppression from all sides of the political spectrum, doesn't make it so, does it?

Michelle Bachmann called for investigations of lawmakers to "expose" their anti Americanism, so that must mean they are anti American.

Is sheriff Arpaio trying to stop illegals from voting or is he trying to intimidate Hispanic voters?

I'll check back in a few days to see if you have gotten a grasp on reality.

Have You? You obviously have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about....yet again.

j2k4
11-06-2010, 12:58 AM
I'll check back in a few days to see if you have gotten a grasp on reality.

Have You? You obviously have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about....yet again.


Hey, you've already maxed-out your credibility-deficit over immigration.

Don't push it.


Here's a wee tidbit for Lucy:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/elections/2010/races/race-2/Bag-of-Uncounted-Ballots-Found-in-Bridgeport-106727208.html

bigboab
11-06-2010, 06:39 AM
Have You? You obviously have absolutely no clue what the hell you're talking about....yet again.


Hey, you've already maxed-out your credibility-deficit over immigration.

Don't push it.


Here's a wee tidbit for Lucy:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/elections/2010/races/race-2/Bag-of-Uncounted-Ballots-Found-in-Bridgeport-106727208.html

These things happen to all parties, in all elections. I think it is called an oversight. I coud be wrong, but Florida keeps springing to my mind. Might just be old age.:cry:

Here is what a U.K. candidate got up to during the election. Also the action taken by the U.K. court.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326930/By-election-ordered-Labour-MP-Phil-Woolas-barred-Commons-3-years.html

j2k4
11-06-2010, 01:49 PM
I coud be wrong, but Florida keeps springing to my mind. Might just be old age.:cry:

You are wrong, Bob, but that was ten years ago, and you were younger then.

bigboab
11-06-2010, 02:55 PM
In 2004 the election was decided in a state where the person who certified the vote, the secretary of state, was also the Bush campaign manager in that state.
In 2000 it was Florida, 2004 Ohio.
Yes I was wrong it was Florida and Ohio.:rolleyes: