funds info from a concerned what.cd VIP

[whatanon]

As a VIP on what.cd, I feel it is my duty to inform the users when issues directly involving them have arisen. The following contains very few mentions of actual usernames, but I can assure you that the sources (of which there are numerous, as I have been investigating this) are all reputable and have direct connections with, have been, or currently are, staff.

On January 17, 2011, an announcement was posted on the front page of what.cd: "An introduction to flattr", a guide to help users quickly and easily set up an account to donate to what.cd. The need for urgency was explained:



Since August, our donations have been down for much longer than they've been up, due mainly to payment providers caving to the demands of the IFPI. As you might imagine, it's been a nervewracking time for us, and we've only been surviving by delving deeper and deeper into our savings.

However, those savings have effectively dried up. Expecting this, we launched a new, solid payment processing system recently - flattr. Unfortunately, flattr is an unfamiliar system to most users, and it can be a bit confusing. As a result, we were not able to make our monthly donation goal in the month that we had flattr running. Thus, we have detailed how to donate via flattr [...]

It all seemed to make sense, in a way. And even if it raised a suspicious eyebrow or two, who is to question those who run this amazing site? They've always been open and honest with the userbase as far as we can tell, and that level of trust is what makes us so willing to hand our cash over to them.

However, it appears that something has been amiss recently. It was noticed that staff began dropping like flies--the latest count is something like eight staff members departing in the span of two weeks. No official farewells, merely quiet demotions. While there is still speculation as to what exactly is happening behind administration's closed doors, we are discovering information that would make it seem that things are not as copacetic as they appear.

Among the numerous staff departures, some things were allegedly brought to light was regarding what.cd's funds.

Around a year and a half ago, a new server was purchased. A moderator named Yibbles elected to pick the server up himself, then transport it wherever it needed to go for the site's use. What.cd put roughly $10,000 into the equipment, and shortly after picking the server up, Yibbles stopped appearing around the site, no longer responding for weeks to months. Presumed to be stolen, Yibbles was disabled and the money considered lost. This is not necessarily new information to many people, but it's fair to assume it's not common knowledge, either. In all fairness, it appears to have been an honest mistake, and given that the equipment has to be touched by human hands regardless, something like this is probably difficult to prevent. It is also reported that the sysops purchased iPhones with the users' donations.

What.cd later had a moderator named TheRiddler. As many of us have often guessed about staff members, TheRiddler had a 'user' account as well, where he could keep his user activity separate from his staff activity. TheRiddler's user account was 'the_e_male'.

Around six months ago, TheRiddler allegedly asked the sysops for a personal loan from the site's funds. Not for a couple hundred dollars, or even a thousand, but $7000. Saying he would pay it back by a certain date, they gave him the money. Around the time he offered to pay the money back, he disappeared from the site, much like Yibbles.

According to reports, the administration told no one about this, not even the moderators. Shortly after this all occurred, What.cd's Paypal was frozen to incoming transactions (they could apparently still pay bills with the account, though). It is reported that prior to the loan to TheRiddler, those in charge of the money spoke confidently of their funds surplus to the other staff. Yet once incoming transactions were frozen, those same people began expressing fears that the site wouldn't survive another month. This contradiction was questioned by the moderators, with no answers given. TheRiddler was eventually demoted in silence, still without explanation to the staff about what had happened--the loan was being swept under the rug entirely.

However, secrets always seem to leak at some point, and it made its way to at least a couple staff members. It is reported that among the recent staff departures from staff, an explanation was requested of TheRiddler's demotion, the loan, and another important detail: 'the_e_male', TheRiddler's user account, was still enabled. Not only 'enabled', but a VIP who was still actively using the site. The administration later half-addressed the issue to its staff, claiming that the_e_male was still enabled because they 'hoped he would pay them back eventually'. What has not been addressed is that fact that this has been hidden from everyone, nor how this will be prevented in the future.

So, with regard to the news post, what the administration means when stating, "those savings have effectively dried up", is that they made an executive decision to give the users' honest donations to another staff member for personal use, then tried to cover up the entire incident when things went awry.

Where does the users' money go? Well, some of it goes to the site. But about $17,000 has gone into other staff members' hands, and it sounds like the administrators have decided to keep it to themselves if they choose to put the money where they shouldn't. The userbase has a right to know where their generous donations go, and it seems more than a little deceptive for the staff to cry poor and place the blame everywhere but internally. Granted, it's their site and have the right to spend their money as they wish, but should people really continue donating to a place where money may disappear without any acknowledgment or visible steps taken toward stopping it from happening again? Having been a VIP for years now, this makes me extremely disappointed, but I feel that the userbase of What.cd has a right to know about it.

[Skiz]

It certainly sounds disheartening, but it's also a lot of hearsay.

On the other hand, I don't donate to trackers and never have. I'm sure the donors will want their say.

[Quarterquack]

As a member who donates and cares for the website, you should also understand that there is a solemn agreement between the donors and the staff for how the funds are used. Nobody believes that all the money truly goes into a private reserve or into direct site funding; and if someone does then they're being silly/naive.

The second point I'd like to make is that even though, some stealing (regardless of whether you provided proof or not), it doesn't seem like the staff made any mistakes. The $7000 were definitely a mistake (if it happened) but it's nothing that the users themselves wouldn't have entrusted the staff given the circumstances. If the staffer had asked for the money publicly would he not have received it (as has happened on other websites)? Then I see no reason for why they should be held accountable for a decision that would have probably received a unanimous approval if posed to the members.

Last, but not least, is if you actually did this out of care or compassion for something you adore, then you'd do it without the need to use FST as your rumor mill, directly on What.CD, using your account. At the very least I'd like to know that a person spreading "facts" about a site I like out of caring for my best interests, cares enough to do it personally and with the utmost form of responsibility.

[ScottK]

the point is, speaking without proof can cause a huge drama, mostly when it come to donations.
and if OP ever came back, bring a name or two which can verify this please.

[EyeCandy]

It's true, there I said it. Everyone spread the word, and transfer to waffles

[ScottK]

It's true, there I said it. Everyone spread the word, and transfer to waffles

1. proof
2. proof
3. proof

[EyeCandy]

You Want Proof You Can't Handle The Proof

[elbuitre]

Hope it's lesson learned for the administration at what.cd, I still trust them. Both seem like honest mistakes. If a person you hold in high esteem asks for a loan to patch up things in life and you are able to, I would do it. It's a shame that people that are promoted to moderators are not trust able though. For now, I'll refrain from donating (I was thinking about it).

[Duckater]

From what I have seen over the yrs a number of the larger sites staff (certanially higher level staff) seem to get some financial benefits from the donations, not saying all but for sure some do.
This why I tend not to use many of the larger trackers these days I have never donationed to the trackers that are always sending promotions out 2 or 3 times a month and never will.
Not many will in the torrent scene will ever know what is going on some trackers I have known people set a tracker up beg for funds to improve it do a mass promotion saying what they going to do then a week later tracker goes for another to appear in about a months time for the whole cycle to start again.
Over the yrs the torrenting scene has changed to such an extent that it is now completely different animal than it was 6 yrs ago when I was fairly new to staffing on torrent sites.
These days I much prefer to make a smaller tracker with less people on who are more friendly and certinally get enough donations to make any money out of it and most months owners staff end up chipping in to pay costs for there hobby, which is the main difference these days some sites are set up almost as a business others are set up as a hobby by a group of friends and I for one will trust the owners of ones where I know it is there hobby than one that is clearly clynical and almost business like run.

I know there are people here been in the torrenting world far longer than I have who may disagree to an extent I am sure 99.99% of people who have been about longer will agree there have been so many changes that has lowered there moral and that they the whole ethics of torrenting as died.

To mean torrenting means sharing, but clearly that ethic of this animal has altered far from that in some circles

[ScottK]

If a person you hold in high esteem asks for a loan to patch up things in life and you are able to, I would do it.

using donations money? cool

[Duckater]

You Want Proof You Can't Handle The Proof


Of course I can due to the fact I have no interest in what.cd's funds as not even a member :)

[waffles_jd]

To be honest, this sounds like a banned cheater attempting to hurt what.cd. Don't make accusations you can't or won't back up. They amount to lies.

[ScottK]

why somebody cant handle the proof? so people should take word as granted?

[elbuitre]

Well, you're right. Using somebody else's money to make a loan is shady. Trackers' donations funds are not banks. I'm either expecting some clarification from the admins or some kind of proof to make up my mind. It's hard not to stand up for what.cd since I'm a big fan of it.

[IdolEyes787]

As a VIP on what.cd, I feel it is my duty to inform the users when issues directly involving them have arisen. The following contains very few mentions of actual usernames, but I can assure you that the sources (of which there are numerous, as I have been investigating this) are all reputable and have ............

If no one else has yet let me be the first to say I have a strong tendency not to trust anything posted anonymously here .
If the allegations are as serious as you assert then I think getting "in trouble " at such a place would be the least of your concerns.

Btw if you decide to come back here with the stance "but I'm a VIP and besides all the serious corruption the site is just too important to lose " then I think you've pretty much lost all moral imperative in the matter.

Actually strange as it might seem, what ( no pun intended ) do you really expect from people who have made stealing from others ( the musicians ) almost an art form in itself anyway - ethics ?:mellow:

[EyeCandy]

do you really expect from people who have made stealing from others ( the musicians ) almost an art form in itself anyway - ethics ?


This is very true...and didn't even cross my mind...thread closed...

[Duckater]

Well, you're right. Using somebody else's money to make a loan is shady. Trackers' donations funds are not banks. I'm either expecting some clarification from the admins or some kind of proof to make up my mind. It's hard not to stand up for what.cd since I'm a big fan of it.

I do understand members of backing sites and think it is great but how many people really knows what goes on in a tracker other than a very select few.
So I think proof is needed for this to be confirmed, but it will never suprise me if some large sites with a big member base is making quiet a bit of money for the elite few that run it. I am no way saying that all are as I know some are run by good honest people.

[megabyteme]

I have anonymous proof that the OP is a transvestite who abuses kittens.

There. I said it- the TRUTH must come out!

[Duckater]

I have anonymous proof that the OP is a transvestite who abuses kittens.

There. I said it- the TRUTH must come out!

Yep but he only does that after you have drowned them :lol:

[IdolEyes787]

I have anonymous proof that the OP is a transvestite who abuses kittens.

There. I said it- the TRUTH must come out!

You posted under your acknowledge username so it doesn't count.
Only means something if you hide your identity and make something like this your initial thread.

Btw I have it on extremely good authority that a large number of people on trackers are below average intelligence adolescents.
Proof to follow.

[elbuitre]

okay, statement from a sysop:


P.S. I won't be donating again until What start operating as a non-profit organization and publishing their accounts.

As you're full aware, this is a patently ridiculous suggestion, do you not remember RachelFaith?

As for the article as a whole, I'm happy to share some facts with you:

Yibbles did offer to transport a new server for us 2 years ago and soon after stopped all contact.
At the time he was a trusted mod of over a year, whom multiple staff members had met in person.
He was also a lawyer that drafted the Gazelle license and helped immensely with the various legal issues that arise from time to time when running a torrent site.
Seeing as the server required delivery by hand, the options were to trust Yibbles, or pay for an admin to fly to the relevant country, hire a car and then deliver it. Or maybe we shouldn't trust admins either and it should have had to have been WhatMan himself?
The management of the time made a judgment call that should have saved the site a lot of money, I would have made the same decision at the time.

With regards to the_e_male / The_Riddler, he was also a lawyer, that took over from Yibbles when he 'left'.
the_e_male has been around since the time of OiNK, where he was a trusted moderator. Every single person that was involved with OiNK knows the_e_male, he was a much beloved legend of the bit torrent community in his own right.
At the time, we were saving up for new hardware at the time and had a larger than usual amount of savings, the kind that paypal likes to freeze every now and again.
There are, for good reason, very few people with access to donation money and we decided to bring the_e_male into the donation 'loop' at the same time as another long time staffer. The money given to the_e_male was justified as a way to spread out funds between accounts - it isn't safe to keep so much money in one place and having another account to shoulder the impact of an account freezing was an attractive prospect.
We did not believe that a staff member that had been in a position of power for 5 years or so would just up and leave, but this is what he did. Staff are yet to hear from him regarding the matter. Did we make a mistake this time? Clearly, but this was clearly a special case, that would have never been considered for anybody else and will never be considered again.

Both occurrences happened well over a year ago, this has nothing to do with our recent request for donations, which has everything to do with them being off-line for so long.

No staff members have been demoted in the past few weeks, each of them stepped down for their own personal reasons and, as far as I am aware, none had anything to do with any of the information in the FST post.

[Duckater]

okay, statement from a sysop:



As you're full aware, this is a patently ridiculous suggestion, do you not remember RachelFaith?

As for the article as a whole, I'm happy to share some facts with you:

Yibbles did offer to transport a new server for us 2 years ago and soon after stopped all contact.
At the time he was a trusted mod of over a year, whom multiple staff members had met in person.
He was also a lawyer that drafted the Gazelle license and helped immensely with the various legal issues that arise from time to time when running a torrent site.
Seeing as the server required delivery by hand, the options were to trust Yibbles, or pay for an admin to fly to the relevant country, hire a car and then deliver it. Or maybe we shouldn't trust admins either and it should have had to have been WhatMan himself?
The management of the time made a judgment call that should have saved the site a lot of money, I would have made the same decision at the time.

With regards to the_e_male / The_Riddler, he was also a lawyer, that took over from Yibbles when he 'left'.
the_e_male has been around since the time of OiNK, where he was a trusted moderator. Every single person that was involved with OiNK knows the_e_male, he was a much beloved legend of the bit torrent community in his own right.
At the time, we were saving up for new hardware at the time and had a larger than usual amount of savings, the kind that paypal likes to freeze every now and again.
There are, for good reason, very few people with access to donation money and we decided to bring the_e_male into the donation 'loop' at the same time as another long time staffer. The money given to the_e_male was justified as a way to spread out funds between accounts - it isn't safe to keep so much money in one place and having another account to shoulder the impact of an account freezing was an attractive prospect.
We did not believe that a staff member that had been in a position of power for 5 years or so would just up and leave, but this is what he did. Staff are yet to hear from him regarding the matter. Did we make a mistake this time? Clearly, but this was clearly a special case, that would have never been considered for anybody else and will never be considered again.

Both occurrences happened well over a year ago, this has nothing to do with our recent request for donations, which has everything to do with them being off-line for so long.

No staff members have been demoted in the past few weeks, each of them stepped down for their own personal reasons and, as far as I am aware, none had anything to do with any of the information in the FST post.

I do like the way oink is mentioned in this means the owner was found to make a profit from oink in the court case and to be honest cannot remember wether any other staff where implicated in taking any money so cannot comment on that.
But the mention of an ex site that did make money in a statement to try and clear this I find quiet ironic :)

From BBC News



The jury was told that police found almost US $300,000 (£183,580) in Mr Ellis's Paypal account and that he received $18,000 (£11,000) a month in donations from people using his website.

Mr Ellis told the court there was no intention to defraud copyright holders.
He said the donations were to pay for the server's rental and any "surplus" would eventually be used to buy a server.
He agreed he had about 10 bank accounts with some £20,000 in savings when police raided the house he shared.

[ca_aok]

The post by NightOath is factual. Yibbles did indeed steal the server, and the_e_male was given money in their manner to spread out the accounts in case one was compromised, which until that point and from that point has worked fine. The fact that he walked away immediately afterward is sad and a poor testament to his character, but unfortunately not much can be done about it now.

The OP here is a mixture of speculation, and I'd be quite interested to see whoever made it man up and do so under their real name.

Donations have always been a matter of trust, and it will be up to you who you trust, as it always has been. I wouldn't hesitate to trust them with a donation, and hopefully these events have taught them to be more careful with trust in the future.

[Duckater]

The post by NightOath is factual. Yibbles did indeed steal the server, and the_e_male was given money in their manner to spread out the accounts in case one was compromised, which until that point and from that point has worked fine. The fact that he walked away immediately afterward is sad and a poor testament to his character, but unfortunately not much can be done about it now.

The OP here is a mixture of speculation, and I'd be quite interested to see whoever made it man up and do so under their real name.

Donations have always been a matter of trust, and it will be up to you who you trust, as it always has been. I wouldn't hesitate to trust them with a donation, and hopefully these events have taught them to be more careful with trust in the future.

I guess the main lesson from all of this is for site owners and very senior staff to be careful who they trust :)

[RealWhoop]

From the looks of it What SysOps couldn't have been more careful. It was an unfortunate mistake.
I'd also like to reiterate what NightOath said - that money wasn't handed out as a loan, it was for the_e_male to hold on Whats behalf (to distribute their funds) - it wasn't ever meant to be spent.

[Waddafocky]

Didn't EyeCandy admit to being OP like 3 or 4 posts down, as soon as Lard Vader requested he come out of the closet?

[Quarterquack]

Didn't EyeCandy admit to being OP like 3 or 4 posts down, as soon as Lard Vader requested he come out of the closet?

If you weren't thinking of lard all the time (I blame fat parenting), you'd realize EyeCandy was making fun of the lack of evidence.

[IdolEyes787]

Didn't EyeCandy admit to being OP like 3 or 4 posts down, as soon as Lard Vader requested he come out of the closet?

I got this off a hidden spy cam.Mystery solved.

65417

[Waddafocky]

Didn't EyeCandy admit to being OP like 3 or 4 posts down, as soon as Lard Vader requested he come out of the closet?

I got this off a hidden spy cam.Mystery solved.

65417
Is that The Informant? If it it, how was the movie?

[bijoy]

it's their site

yes,

and have the right to spend their money as they wish,
unfortunately, it is not their money.


but should people really continue donating to a place where money may disappear without any acknowledgment or visible steps taken toward stopping it from happening again? Having been a VIP for years now, this makes me extremely disappointed,
Simple solution, stop wasting your money: a.k.a. donating.

[anon]

unfortunately, it is not their money.

I thought it became theirs after you donated or something.

[Quarterquack]

unfortunately, it is not their money.


I don't think you understand one bit of what happened, neither do you understand the concept of donation.

[bijoy]

unfortunately, it is not their money.

I don't think you understand one bit of what happened, neither do you understand the concept of donation.

I posted just after reading the 1st post. Later when I read all the posts the situation become more clear to me.
concept of donation ---> to be very honest, all of us are human. Their is nothing like 'donation' everywhere.
Back to bt: When one sysop starts a tracker he spend some amount of money from his own pocket. So, it is completely fair to take back the same amount of money(+interest maybe) from donation, and there is nothing wrong in it. But again: 'all of us are human'. Call it a mistake or greed once anyone start to make profit, he/she just can't stop him/herself from doing that.. I hope you already got my point.

[whatcdfan]

When one sysop starts a tracker he spend some amount of money from his own pocket. So, it is completely fair to take back the same amount of money(+interest maybe) from donation, and there is nothing wrong in it. But again: 'all of us are human'. Call it a mistake or greed once anyone start to make profit, he/she just can't stop him/herself from doing that.. I hope you already got my point.

Members donate so that staff can continue to run the service.They shouldn't intend to use the donations or any part of it for their personal use, if staff has put in some money to start a tracker so the members also have put in their hard work to make it a place it is and have taken burden of expenses on their own shoulders.

everyone on the torrenting scene should realize that private Bt is not a business and it cant be, If someone is intending to make profits they would be better of to a P2L or legal downloading sites.


Actually strange as it might seem, what ( no pun intended ) do you really expect from people who have made stealing from others ( the musicians ) almost an art form in itself anyway - ethics ?:mellow:

Deserve to be sigged.

[IdolEyes787]

I got this off a hidden spy cam.Mystery solved.

65417
Is that The Informant? If it it, how was the movie?

It is and it's a bit of a mess , as it can't make up it's mind whether it wants to be funny or serious. Damon's good though if disturbing with the extra weight and moustache.
Hard to believe this is the same guy from the Bourne films .It's like the last 30 years of Mel Gibson's life was condensed into a couple of months.

[1000possibleclaws]

To mean torrenting means sharing, but clearly that ethic of this animal has altered far from that in some circles

Yup, What.cd has transcended being just a hobby for a couple people playing sysops. It's making history imo.

[Intr4ns1t]

Members donate so that staff can continue to run the service.They shouldn't intend to use the donations or any part of it for their personal use, if staff has put in some money to start a tracker so the members also have put in their hard work to make it a place it is and have taken burden of expenses on their own shoulders.

everyone on the torrenting scene should realize that private Bt is not a business and it cant be, If someone is intending to make profits they would be better of to a P2L or legal downloading sites.

Actually, everyone on the torrent scene should realize that trackers are a business, and require funds to operate. There are economics involved whether you want there to be or not, and if you feel there should always be improvements on trackers, those sites must profit, to enact said improvements. And if you think it's the sysops responsibility to pay out of pocket on top of the thousands of hours it takes to set up, grow, and maintain a site, then you really have less respect for staffers than you should.

If you like your site, and have the finances to support it, donate. If not, don't blame the owners when it goes down for lack of finances, and don't come to FST whining about how the staff should do more for you. Every single thing they have done for you, they have, almost universally, taken a loss to do with no return except the satisfaction of making other peoples lives easier and more enjoyable.

And that's the truth. I know I have given a lot of shit to the current mindset in private BT about the miniaturization and exclusivity thing, but that's because my personal opinions about what's best for BT and internet freedom in general lead me to think it's the opposite direction, but I speak from firsthand experience when I say that VERY FEW people realize the amount of thankless effort it takes to run a tracker for any significant length of time.

All of that time is an investment in a business plan, with no returns, so not for profit. This does not bar making more than your monthly costs(so that you can cover lean months, and actually improve your site), nor does it bar trying to break even on a personal financial level, imho. It's actually pretty thoughtless to expect someone to go in the hole, financially, just so they can remain absolutely pristine in the eyes of a bunch of armchair staffers.

[Duckater]

Members donate so that staff can continue to run the service.They shouldn't intend to use the donations or any part of it for their personal use, if staff has put in some money to start a tracker so the members also have put in their hard work to make it a place it is and have taken burden of expenses on their own shoulders.

everyone on the torrenting scene should realize that private Bt is not a business and it cant be, If someone is intending to make profits they would be better of to a P2L or legal downloading sites.

Actually, everyone on the torrent scene should realize that trackers are a business, and require funds to operate. There are economics involved whether you want there to be or not, and if you feel there should always be improvements on trackers, those sites must profit, to enact said improvements. And if you think it's the sysops responsibility to pay out of pocket on top of the thousands of hours it takes to set up, grow, and maintain a site, then you really have less respect for staffers than you should.

If you like your site, and have the finances to support it, donate. If not, don't blame the owners when it goes down for lack of finances, and don't come to FST whining about how the staff should do more for you. Every single thing they have done for you, they have, almost universally, taken a loss to do with no return except the satisfaction of making other peoples lives easier and more enjoyable.

And that's the truth. I know I have given a lot of shit to the current mindset in private BT about the miniaturization and exclusivity thing, but that's because my personal opinions about what's best for BT and internet freedom in general lead me to think it's the opposite direction, but I speak from firsthand experience when I say that VERY FEW people realize the amount of thankless effort it takes to run a tracker for any significant length of time.

All of that time is an investment in a business plan, with no returns, so not for profit. This does not bar making more than your monthly costs(so that you can cover lean months, and actually improve your site), nor does it bar trying to break even on a personal financial level, imho. It's actually pretty thoughtless to expect someone to go in the hole, financially, just so they can remain absolutely pristine in the eyes of a bunch of armchair staffers.

Very well put and so true.
Some sites are more open with there staff and members than others bu it is a fine line to say how much info should be given.
transparency on all financies of a site could be good but could equally be as bad.

[A]

That post by NightOath is the 101 on "How to handle a messy situation". Accepting mistakes and being straight forward. Remind me why What.CD is one of the best trackers around.

[ca_aok]

Oh and the iPhone thing is total BS. Forgot to mention that in my last post. I only know one or two of them that even have an iPhone, most of the upper echelon there seems to be full of android lovers :P

[OlegL]

I didn't donate more money to what.cd for one simple reason: I ran out of money. I also need to have money, so I could buy food. But trust me, I won't forget about what.cd.

[whatcdfan]

Actually, everyone on the torrent scene should realize that trackers are a business, and require funds to operate. There are economics involved whether you want there to be or not, and if you feel there should always be improvements on trackers, those sites must profit, to enact said improvements. And if you think it's the sysops responsibility to pay out of pocket on top of the thousands of hours it takes to set up, grow, and maintain a site, then you really have less respect for staffers than you should.

I see you have a hard time understanding me, ah..my bad English.No where did i tried to argued that trackers dont need money to run/maintain rather i said the money they receive should be used to run/enhance the quality of the service instead of serving the personal needs of the staff members.The concept of private torrenting differs from that of a profit making online service, here we have everyone playing their part, each and everyone has its own share of responsibility even members upload/seed sometimes more then they leech so should they be given a chance to make a payout for the surplus?,here we have a system/culture of userclasses where worthy members are promoted to look after the different affairs. All in all everyone has to play their part and lend a hand to get the things going and if according to you (not sure though) sysops should get some part of the donations for their personal uses then everyone other member also in accordance with the time and effort they have put in.

Everyone that gets benefited by the tracker in one way or the other, should (if they can) bear the responsibility of paying for the expenses.

[Polarbear]

okay, statement from a sysop:


I do like the way oink is mentioned in this means the owner was found to make a profit from oink in the court case and to be honest cannot remember wether any other staff where implicated in taking any money so cannot comment on that.
But the mention of an ex site that did make money in a statement to try and clear this I find quiet ironic :)

From BBC News





The jury was told that police found almost US $300,000 (£183,580) in Mr Ellis's Paypal account and that he received $18,000 (£11,000) a month in donations from people using his website.

Mr Ellis told the court there was no intention to defraud copyright holders.
He said the donations were to pay for the server's rental and any "surplus" would eventually be used to buy a server.
He agreed he had about 10 bank accounts with some £20,000 in savings when police raided the house he shared.



The BBC also reported this:

"The court heard that membership to Oink was free, but by invitation only, and anyone wishing to propose a friend had to make a five dollar payment."

Any former member knows that the above is untrue.

The 300,000 were the combined sum of all donations OINK ever got. The money was used by Ellis to pay for the servers and hosting, which probably cost him several thousand dollars a month.

Ellis didn't really have a luxury life style. One could say that he lived under poor conditions.


Managing a huge bittorrent tracker is like running a small company. At some point you have to trust other people with money. You're dealing with employees that don't receive any salary and that you haven't ever met in person in most cases. In other words you don't know who they are. You have no leverage because you can't sue them for taking your money. An online friendship breaks really fast when it comes to several thousand dollars or more.
In such an enviornment it can't be avoided that some take the money at run. Happens all the time.

I wouldn't even have the time for the amount of work they do and they get nothing but recognition in an online community. Bad deal if you ask me. That's why we should respect the majority of tracker staff who are loyal workers dedicated to their site. They are the second most important people on a tracker. The most important ones are the users because they deliver the product and the money.

It's hard to tell how much profit trackers really make compared to their actual costs. Only a few people running a tracker have detailed insights and they wouldn't talk about it. As long as I'm not forced to invest money to download I frankly don't care.

[Intr4ns1t]

I see you have a hard time understanding me, ah..my bad English.No where did i tried to argued that trackers dont need money to run/maintain rather i said the money they receive should be used to run/enhance the quality of the service instead of serving the personal needs of the staff members.The concept of private torrenting differs from that of a profit making online service, here we have everyone playing their part, each and everyone has its own share of responsibility even members upload/seed sometimes more then they leech so should they be given a chance to make a payout for the surplus?,here we have a system/culture of userclasses where worthy members are promoted to look after the different affairs. All in all everyone has to play their part and lend a hand to get the things going and if according to you (not sure though) sysops should get some part of the donations for their personal uses then everyone other member also in accordance with the time and effort they have put in.

Everyone that gets benefited by the tracker in one way or the other, should (if they can) bear the responsibility of paying for the expenses.

You stated that everyone needs to realize trackers aren't and can't be a business. I pointed out why you were wrong. Get over it.