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999969999
01-30-2011, 04:22 PM
So, what do you think about the riots in Egypt?

I personally could not care less about Egypt as a country, but I can see that my gasoline costs are going to go through the roof now. And that sucks.

Which is why we should be drilling for oil and natural gas here in the United States so we are not dependent on petty third world countries like Egypt for anything.

clocker
01-30-2011, 04:40 PM
We haven't enough oil to make a difference and natural gas production is so ecologically destructive that it's hardly worth it.

Your gasoline costs are skyrocketing because of speculators- the down and dirty trenchmen of the "free market" you're so fond of, not because of Egypt (or the miniscule amount of oil we may get from them).
Take pride as you fill up your tank...somewhere someone has just profited at your expense, which is exactly how capitalism is supposed to work.
You'll feel even better as gas rises to $6/gallon and higher.

Mivaro
01-30-2011, 06:15 PM
As far as i know (i admit that's not a lot:)) Egypt doesn't have a lot of oil. In fact the egyptian oilreserves seem to decline rapidly, so you don't have be burdened with the troubles in Egypt :whistling

devilsadvocate
01-30-2011, 06:27 PM
Just for the sake of debate, we open up every source of oil/gas we have and produce enough to supply our demand, we become self sufficient.

How likely do you think it would be that.

Our fuel price would be lower than the world market?

Oil companies would only sell to us and not the more profitable world market?

Oil companies would drill more to keep prices lower when demand rises?

There are many drilling sites available for production that are not opened, it's not in the financial interest of the oil companies to increase supply.

Edit.

As for Egypt, we should keep our noses out.

Quarterquack
01-30-2011, 06:28 PM
...

Don't worry. You'll grow up and eventually understand that what happens in one country can affect another in ways that don't relate to how you get to your slumber parties and back.

EDIT: My apologies, I thought this was the lounge. Considering this is the drawing room, I'll elaborate (but not edit out the first part of my post; it still stands):

The problem with the Egyptian riots is the fact that they hit a political critical spot. If the country falls, then so does the political stability of half the middle east (not only due other riots/uproars, but also due to Egyptian political influence on other countries in the area). It would be in everyone's best interests that no such thing happens or a world war will be on people's hands. Can't imagine that? Israel finally overpowers Palestine. Iran gets involved since Egypt isn't there to control that situation any longer. The US gets involved. Then both the Russians and Chinese get involved for personal/political issues. There you go, two continents dragged into a war, simply because the people supposedly in charge of maintaining peace talks (even though they never actually do so), and governing a lot of Western influence in the Arab world have been taken out of power.

It's why the V.P. appointed had to be who he is (you can be sure he was sanctioned by the US as such, even before Mubarak thought of him as a possible candidate), and why no one is taking a further active part in giving the people what they "want".

So, let me put this in terms you would understand: If Egypt falls, gas prices will soar even higher (thanks to war, especially with so many parties involved). That is a bad thing. You don't like bad things. You should consider finding a better opinion that worrying about just the gas prices.

sandman_1
01-31-2011, 02:55 PM
We haven't enough oil to make a difference and natural gas production is so ecologically destructive that it's hardly worth it.

Your gasoline costs are skyrocketing because of speculators- the down and dirty trenchmen of the "free market" you're so fond of, not because of Egypt (or the miniscule amount of oil we may get from them).
Take pride as you fill up your tank...somewhere someone has just profited at your expense, which is exactly how capitalism is supposed to work.
You'll feel even better as gas rises to $6/gallon and higher.

True. The main reason Egypt is so important and the reason why we want some sort of stability in that region is because of the Suez Canal. Egypt isn't a huge oil producer but there is a lot of goods that goes through the Suez Canal. That is why oil is spiking on speculation that shipments could be significantly delayed or cut-off, with the worst case scenario being $200/barrel of oil. If oil spikes to that high, everything will rise in price because oil is what moves our goods from point A to B. Here in the USA, we could see $9 loaf of bread or $6-9/gallon of gas. That would be a major shock to our economy and to the world. It is obvious that Mubarak is on the out and that the USA should support the people. If we don't support the people in this situation, a regime could be put in place hostile to the USA and cause all kind of problems for Americans. Not only is it the right thing to do since that guy has been in control for 30 years, but it is the thing to do if we wish to have some sort of economic security in the long run in that particular area.

On an aside, the main reason gasoline has been rising in the USA is mainly due to the devalued dollar. Look for the Fed to devalue the dollar probably in Q3 of this year and then see oil prices rise even further.

clocker
01-31-2011, 05:01 PM
I think the Suez Canal is merely a red herring when considering the price of oil.
Only a tiny fraction of world oil stock actually travels via that route (and about half of that fraction is in a pipeline, not tankers) and on any given day, the amount of oil that crosses Egypt is dwarfed by the amount that is floating the oceans as oil companies jockey to find the best market.
A simple aside...
We've become conditioned to constant price spikes at the pump- you hear on the news that barrel prices on Wall Street went up and sure enough, a few days later the pump price down the street bumps a few pennies.
The obvious implication is that there is a direct link between the Saudi sands and the nearest 7-11.
This is not true.

We ship billions of tons of oil every year and the average (this is important) transit time is 70+ days.
Let's say Exxon fills a ship with oil at $15/barrel and two weeks later fills an identical tanker at $10/barrel.
Depending on prices 6 weeks later (these tankers ain't speedy) it may be more profitable to sell off the second tanker first and sit on the more expensive cargo, hoping prices will rise (this becomes a balancing act between "potential" profit and the inexorable costs -"X" amount for the tanker rental/upkeep, docking/transit fees, etc.).

Oil companies use refineries as "choke points".
Rarely is a refinery running at full capacity, it's only outputting enough to keep the desired profit margin in reach.
Actual, real supply of crude is infrequently the reason for reduced refinery output, there is a huge cushion of excess crude stock floating on the oceans (petroleum- one single commodity- accounts for over a third of all shipped tonnage).

Big Oil has the entire system gamed, which is why the big companies have been posting record quarterly profits regardless of the seemingly important "barrel price".
Besides, by all accounts, the Suez is completely open and unimpeded...all the expressed "uncertainty and fear" about oil supply is currently without basis in fact.

The dilemma for the US is that we want to engineer "democracy" in the Middle East.
It's not enough to have a free election, we need our guy to win and Mubarak has reliably been "our guy" for decades.
How ironic that after spending all the time, money and manpower to inflict American democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan, two countries we left alone seem poised to almost spontaneously democratize themselves.
How do we claim credit for- and reestablish control over- a situation as volatile as that?

sandman_1
01-31-2011, 06:35 PM
I think the Suez Canal is merely a red herring when considering the price of oil.
Only a tiny fraction of world oil stock actually travels via that route (and about half of that fraction is in a pipeline, not tankers) and on any given day, the amount of oil that crosses Egypt is dwarfed by the amount that is floating the oceans as oil companies jockey to find the best market.
A simple aside...
We've become conditioned to constant price spikes at the pump- you hear on the news that barrel prices on Wall Street went up and sure enough, a few days later the pump price down the street bumps a few pennies.
The obvious implication is that there is a direct link between the Saudi sands and the nearest 7-11.
This is not true.

We ship billions of tons of oil every year and the average (this is important) transit time is 70+ days.
Let's say Exxon fills a ship with oil at $15/barrel and two weeks later fills an identical tanker at $10/barrel.
Depending on prices 6 weeks later (these tankers ain't speedy) it may be more profitable to sell off the second tanker first and sit on the more expensive cargo, hoping prices will rise (this becomes a balancing act between "potential" profit and the inexorable costs -"X" amount for the tanker rental/upkeep, docking/transit fees, etc.).

Oil companies use refineries as "choke points".
Rarely is a refinery running at full capacity, it's only outputting enough to keep the desired profit margin in reach.
Actual, real supply of crude is infrequently the reason for reduced refinery output, there is a huge cushion of excess crude stock floating on the oceans (petroleum- one single commodity- accounts for over a third of all shipped tonnage).

Big Oil has the entire system gamed, which is why the big companies have been posting record quarterly profits regardless of the seemingly important "barrel price".
Besides, by all accounts, the Suez is completely open and unimpeded...all the expressed "uncertainty and fear" about oil supply is currently without basis in fact.

The dilemma for the US is that we want to engineer "democracy" in the Middle East.
It's not enough to have a free election, we need our guy to win and Mubarak has reliably been "our guy" for decades.
How ironic that after spending all the time, money and manpower to inflict American democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan, two countries we left alone seem poised to almost spontaneously democratize themselves.
How do we claim credit for- and reestablish control over- a situation as volatile as that?


I don't know where you are getting your information but that canal is significant to how much of the total world goods that pass through it, just not oil.



Some 16,000 vessels already pass through the canal each year, carrying an estimated 14% of world shipping and 30% of world oil supplies. Further work is underway to increase the depth of the canal by 2010, opening it up to fully-laden supertankers with a draught of 22m (72ft) against the current 16m (53ft).

Dated 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7666877.stm

Not only does a lot of goods pass through the canal, if the canal was closed, goods would have to travel further to get to their destination thus using more fuel and delaying shipments by several days.



This thin blue ribbon - just 300m wide at its narrowest point - is one of the world's most vital waterways, a crucial commercial shortcut. A ship that passes along the 162km (101 mile) Suez Canal is saved a 9,654km circumnavigation of Africa; the average journey time cut from 20 days to just 13 hours.

clocker
01-31-2011, 06:57 PM
Bloomberg. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-31/egypt-s-suez-canal-carrying-8-of-world-trade-remains-open-amid-violence.html)
Or here. (http://pragcap.com/the-risk-of-egypt-oil-prices)

sandman_1
01-31-2011, 07:44 PM
Bloomberg. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-31/egypt-s-suez-canal-carrying-8-of-world-trade-remains-open-amid-violence.html)
Or here. (http://pragcap.com/the-risk-of-egypt-oil-prices)

Bloomberg article sort of supports your argument however the other does not.




If oil shipments through Egypt were disrupted, European supply—and global prices—would be “affected tremendously,” said Dalton Garis, an associate professor in petroleum-market behavior at the Petroleum Institute, an energy-research center in Abu Dhabi.

clocker
02-01-2011, 12:07 AM
From the second link:
"About a million barrels a day of crude and refined products are shipped northward on the Suez Canal, according to estimates from the U.S. Department of Energy. A separate pipeline linking the Red Sea and the Mediterranean carries another 1.1 million barrels a day. Together, that is roughly 2% of global oil production".

2% is significantly less than the 30% you claim.

Furthermore, Dalton Garis and the science of petroleum market behavior are irrelevant.
Essentially comparable to the "expert" commentators at a WWE event, he is studying a script.
There is no way the oil corps lose as the "market" is structured today.

sandman_1
02-01-2011, 02:23 AM
From the second link:
"About a million barrels a day of crude and refined products are shipped northward on the Suez Canal, according to estimates from the U.S. Department of Energy. A separate pipeline linking the Red Sea and the Mediterranean carries another 1.1 million barrels a day. Together, that is roughly 2% of global oil production".

2% is significantly less than the 30% you claim.

Furthermore, Dalton Garis and the science of petroleum market behavior are irrelevant.
Essentially comparable to the "expert" commentators at a WWE event, he is studying a script.
There is no way the oil corps lose as the "market" is structured today.

Global oil production, keyword here production, not shipments. The shipments are going to be significantly less than total production. Probably more inline with oil exports.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/country/index.cfm#countrylist

Yea the professor doesn't know what he is talking about, sure. :rolleyes:

Here are his credentials:

Dr. Dalton Garis
Associate Professor of Economics


Email: [email protected]
Phone: +971 2 607 5297
Office: 2116 (Bu Hasa)


Academic Qualifications

* Ph.D., Resource Economics, University of Florida
* M.Sc., Agricultural Economics, Texas A & M University
* B.Sc., Industrial Engineering, University of Massachusetts

2003 to now Associate Professor of Economics, Petroleum Institute, Abu Dhabi

Dr. Garis has over 20 years experience in commodity price analysis and over 10 years experience in Qur’anic economics. He has been an invited speaker at oil and gas, refinery, and petrochemical conferences in the Gulf region presenting research on cash and futures petroleum market behavior and price formation. Dr Garis has presented research on oil prices and energy alternatives at the American Society of Mechanical Engineers annual conference in Anaheim, California, USA, and the Society of Petroleum Engineers regional conference in Bahrain. He has acted as a consultant on the use of futures and options markets for wet barrel hedging for Gulf producers, and also is a regular contributor to Islamic economics and finance forums in the Middle East, specializing in Shar’iah-compliant commodity based futures and options hedging for producers. His book on Qur’anic economics, Manna From Heaven will be published this winter.

Dr. Garis is a columnist for Oil and Gas News, ADNOC News, Oil & Gas Middle East, and Zawya on oil pricing and marketing issues.

Research Interests
Petroleum market price analysis
Futures petroleum market behavior
Islamic finance and economics

So what are yours since you are so quick to compare him to a WWE commentator?

clocker
02-01-2011, 04:34 AM
How many "experts", "professors" and "economists" studied the financial system and foresaw the crisis we are now embroiled in?
How did they stop/mitigate it?

Fie on your experts.

mjmacky
02-01-2011, 05:21 AM
I'm of the persuasion that we cannot avoid another major war. What part in history makes that seem possible. We do all we can to prevent hostilities from spilling over and will just invent a new kind of multinational conflict somewhere in the process. We'll call it WWIII but it'll be a whole different monster.

megabyteme
02-01-2011, 09:26 AM
Yea the professor doesn't know what he is talking about, sure. :rolleyes:

Here are his credentials:

Dr. Dalton Garis
Associate Professor of Economics


Email: [email protected]
Phone: +971 2 607 5297
Office: 2116 (Bu Hasa)


Academic Qualifications

* Ph.D., Resource Economics, University of Florida
* M.Sc., Agricultural Economics, Texas A & M University
* B.Sc., Industrial Engineering, University of Massachusetts

2003 to now Associate Professor of Economics, Petroleum Institute, Abu Dhabi

Dr. Garis has over 20 years experience in commodity price analysis and over 10 years experience in Qur’anic economics. He has been an invited speaker at oil and gas, refinery, and petrochemical conferences in the Gulf region presenting research on cash and futures petroleum market behavior and price formation. Dr Garis has presented research on oil prices and energy alternatives at the American Society of Mechanical Engineers annual conference in Anaheim, California, USA, and the Society of Petroleum Engineers regional conference in Bahrain. He has acted as a consultant on the use of futures and options markets for wet barrel hedging for Gulf producers, and also is a regular contributor to Islamic economics and finance forums in the Middle East, specializing in Shar’iah-compliant commodity based futures and options hedging for producers. His book on Qur’anic economics, Manna From Heaven will be published this winter.

Dr. Garis is a columnist for Oil and Gas News, ADNOC News, Oil & Gas Middle East, and Zawya on oil pricing and marketing issues.

Research Interests
Petroleum market price analysis
Futures petroleum market behavior
Islamic finance and economics

So what are yours since you are so quick to compare him to a WWE commentator?

Your professor has EVERY reason (highlighted in bold) to say things that will help (spread fear and) raise the price of oil. Extremely biased commentators typically have minimally valuable information to offer- regardless of their resumes.

clocker
02-01-2011, 01:20 PM
@Sandman:
I'm not sure why we're even arguing about this.
Whether the Canal handles 2% or 30% matters not...it's open for business and there's no delay, so whatever was flowing before is flowing now.
Thus, there should be no change in crude barrel prices (at least no changes because of "fear" or "uncertainty" regarding the Suez).

The Suez is undeniably an important piece of the worldwide shipping network and Egypt makes a lot of money off it, so no one in Egypt has incentive to throttle it.
In the unlikely event that it does become impeded, Big Oil will snap it's fingers and start using alternative routes (and building new ones) and/or call for military intervention.
Petty concerns like democracy, jihad and social unrest will not stop the flow of oil and money.

sandman_1
02-01-2011, 02:39 PM
@Sandman:
I'm not sure why we're even arguing about this.
Whether the Canal handles 2% or 30% matters not...it's open for business and there's no delay, so whatever was flowing before is flowing now.
Thus, there should be no change in crude barrel prices (at least no changes because of "fear" or "uncertainty" regarding the Suez).

The Suez is undeniably an important piece of the worldwide shipping network and Egypt makes a lot of money off it, so no one in Egypt has incentive to throttle it.
In the unlikely event that it does become impeded, Big Oil will snap it's fingers and start using alternative routes (and building new ones) and/or call for military intervention.
Petty concerns like democracy, jihad and social unrest will not stop the flow of oil and money.

I think the main concern is if there was a hostile regime put in place, like Iran, to the USA. Also I think you will find that we have agreement on more things than not. We just slightly differ in opinion. I do agree that they purposely do things to artificially raise oil prices. Things can happen just by a word/rumor on Wall Street.

@megabyteme

He is not my professor. And do you have proof to back up your argument in regards to this professor? I mean what you pointed out wasn't proof and was pretty weak. Also the guy works for a college so it isn't like the guy is in the private sector here. http://www.pi.ac.ae/PI_ACA/cor/index.php

clocker
02-01-2011, 03:03 PM
I think the main concern is if there was a hostile regime put in place, like Iran, to the USA.


Irrelevant.
We've spent billions installing (or at least, attempting to install) a "friendly" democratic regime in Iraq so we could access their oil (remember that Rumsfeld promised that Iraqi oil revenue would pay for the war?) and have nothing to show for it.

The type of government that happens to be perched above oil supplies is simply window dressing- a sop to the masses- and totally irrelevant to the corporations who actually wield power.
Arrangements can and have been made with the full spectrum of political expression...money is money, it knows no borders and brooks no conscience.

Edit:
Belatedly addressing the thread title:
The Pharoahs would consider Mubarak a gigantic pussy.
They would have considered Hitler and Stalin to be lightweights.
The Pharoahs would have considered their thoughts about anything to be none of your goddamn business.

999969999
02-02-2011, 10:32 PM
Edit:
Belatedly addressing the thread title:
The Pharoahs would consider Mubarak a gigantic pussy.
They would have considered Hitler and Stalin to be lightweights.
The Pharoahs would have considered their thoughts about anything to be none of your goddamn business.

I agree. These riots would have been put down immediately.

999969999
02-02-2011, 10:36 PM
Just for the sake of debate, we open up every source of oil/gas we have and produce enough to supply our demand, we become self sufficient.

How likely do you think it would be that.

I think it would be very likely that we could become self-sufficient using nuclear power and coal for electricity and natural gas for fuel for our vehicles.

Our fuel price would be lower than the world market?

You've got me here.

Oil companies would only sell to us and not the more profitable world market?

And here.


Oil companies would drill more to keep prices lower when demand rises?

And here.


There are many drilling sites available for production that are not opened, it's not in the financial interest of the oil companies to increase supply.

But it may be soon.
Edit.

As for Egypt, we should keep our noses out.

For once, I agree with you on something!



....

999969999
02-02-2011, 10:45 PM
...

Don't worry. You'll grow up and eventually understand that what happens in one country can affect another in ways that don't relate to how you get to your slumber parties and back.

My slumber parties???

EDIT: My apologies,

Your apology is accepted, Darth :)-- please don't strangle me!

I thought this was the lounge. Considering this is the drawing room, I'll elaborate (but not edit out the first part of my post; it still stands):

The problem with the Egyptian riots is the fact that they hit a political critical spot. If the country falls, then so does the political stability of half the middle east (not only due other riots/uproars, but also due to Egyptian political influence on other countries in the area).

But you see, maybe we shouldn't be in a position where we need to care about what happens in these parts of the world?


It would be in everyone's best interests that no such thing happens or a world war will be on people's hands.

I doubt this.

Can't imagine that? Israel finally overpowers Palestine.

Israel is going to eventually gets its ass kicked by the surrounding Arabs and Persians at some point with or without our support. We need to cut them loose and cut our losses on them.


Iran gets involved since Egypt isn't there to control that situation any longer. The US gets involved. Then both the Russians and Chinese get involved for personal/political issues. There you go, two continents dragged into a war, simply because the people supposedly in charge of maintaining peace talks (even though they never actually do so), and governing a lot of Western influence in the Arab world have been taken out of power.

It's why the V.P. appointed had to be who he is (you can be sure he was sanctioned by the US as such, even before Mubarak thought of him as a possible candidate), and why no one is taking a further active part in giving the people what they "want".

So, let me put this in terms you would understand: If Egypt falls, gas prices will soar even higher (thanks to war, especially with so many parties involved). That is a bad thing. You don't like bad things. You should consider finding a better opinion that worrying about just the gas prices.

And that is what I am most worried about!



....

clocker
02-03-2011, 12:26 AM
I think it would be very likely that we could become self-sufficient using nuclear power and coal for electricity and natural gas for fuel for our vehicles.

Interesting that you consider three of the most destructive and polluting energy sources to be our only path to self-sufficiency.
I'm hardly surprised.

YoYoY
02-03-2011, 02:52 AM
Most of the people contributing in this thread are full of shit.
Guys , you know nothing about Egypt , I don't care what you know , you obviously don't care about what happens so I suggest you all shut the hell up and find something else to talk about.

999969999 obviously has too much free time.

devilsadvocate
02-03-2011, 03:02 AM
I think it would be very likely that we could become self-sufficient using nuclear power and coal for electricity and natural gas for fuel for our vehicles.
Especially the last one.

Without government mandates how likely do you think this will happen? I mean simply raising the CAFE standards resulting in accusations of government tyranny. If it were a profitable idea it would already be happening with more than just a few farmers.

Look at the outrage about efficiency standards for light bulbs.



You've got me here.
And here.
And here.

Oh go on, hazard a guess.



You answered in a different thread that you are against nationalizing energy industries. Word is that government regulation is the cause of all ills. We also know that industry runs for profit and not the national good.
It's funny. We hear all this talk about drilling OUR oil, yet it's considered the oil companies oil. We take hardly any royalties in fact we give the oil companies tax breaks to drill our oil and sell it to us.

It's not that I object to this wonderful fantasy of us being self sufficient. I'm just being realistic that the free market system we have will not produce the utopia you desire.

So the question is.

Are you prepared to have government mandate these changes.


Countries like China can do these things because they give their people no choice.

Free countries have a much harder time doing these things because we give everyone a choice and they tend to want to do the complete opposite of what government suggests is a good idea.

devilsadvocate
02-03-2011, 03:09 AM
Most of the people contributing in this thread are full of shit.
Guys , you know nothing about Egypt , I don't care what you know , you obviously don't care about what happens so I suggest you all shut the hell up and find something else to talk about.



There is an old Egyptian blessing that I feel you deserve to be placed upon you.


قد البراغيث من الإبل ألف تتفشى إلى الأبد الأحمق الخاص

clocker
02-03-2011, 03:23 AM
Most of the people contributing in this thread are full of shit.
Guys , you know nothing about Egypt , I don't care what you know
And your credentials are...?

megabyteme
02-03-2011, 10:05 PM
I don't care what you know

One of the weakest positions possible in a debate. You would have to take a random snipit from one of 9's posts to get any weaker.

sandman_1
02-04-2011, 05:35 AM
Most of the people contributing in this thread are full of shit.
Guys , you know nothing about Egypt , I don't care what you know , you obviously don't care about what happens so I suggest you all shut the hell up and find something else to talk about.

999969999 obviously has too much free time.


Yea sure...:wacko:

999969999
02-04-2011, 04:52 PM
I don't care what you know

One of the weakest positions possible in a debate. You would have to take a random snipit from one of 9's posts to get any weaker.

Yeah! Take that Mr. YoYo!

:)

999969999
02-04-2011, 05:01 PM
Especially the last one.

Without government mandates how likely do you think this will happen? I mean simply raising the CAFE standards resulting in accusations of government tyranny. If it were a profitable idea it would already be happening with more than just a few farmers.

Look at the outrage about efficiency standards for light bulbs.



You've got me here.
And here.
And here.

Oh go on, hazard a guess.

My guess is you're probably right about this. But you don't offer any solutions to this problem, either. We must find some way to become self-sufficient, so that in the future, we won't care at all when stuff like this happens in places like Egypt. Even you said we should stay out of this, and I agree.

We should have never been involved in Iraq or Afghanistan, either.

It is time to pull our military back home from places like Germany, Bosnia, South Korea, etc., and focus on our own problems. One of those problems is becoming energy self-sufficient.


You answered in a different thread that you are against nationalizing energy industries. Word is that government regulation is the cause of all ills. We also know that industry runs for profit and not the national good.
It's funny. We hear all this talk about drilling OUR oil, yet it's considered the oil companies oil. We take hardly any royalties in fact we give the oil companies tax breaks to drill our oil and sell it to us.

It's not that I object to this wonderful fantasy of us being self sufficient. I'm just being realistic that the free market system we have will not produce the utopia you desire.

So the question is.

Are you prepared to have government mandate these changes.


Countries like China can do these things because they give their people no choice.

Free countries have a much harder time doing these things because we give everyone a choice and they tend to want to do the complete opposite of what government suggests is a good idea.

...

999969999
02-04-2011, 05:07 PM
I think it would be very likely that we could become self-sufficient using nuclear power and coal for electricity and natural gas for fuel for our vehicles.

Interesting that you consider three of the most destructive and polluting energy sources to be our only path to self-sufficiency.
I'm hardly surprised.

France uses nuclear generation for most of their electricity needs. It is doable.

We have enough coal right here to last for hundreds of years.

The same thing for natural gas.

All three of these forms of energy have a proven track record. They work and they are cheap.

I'm sorry but your green energy-- solar and windmills-- just don't work. The sun eventually sets at night, and the wind stops blowing from time to time.

If your side could come up with something that actually worked and was cheap then we would get behind it. But so far, all you offer us is more expensive and less reliable energy.

clocker
02-04-2011, 05:26 PM
All three of these forms of energy have a proven track record. They work and they are cheap.


All three forms of energy are only "cheap" when you ignore the environmental impact of producing them...which you seem completely willing to do.
As for "reliable", explain this, please. (http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_17288888?nclick_check=1)

megabyteme
02-04-2011, 07:40 PM
One of the weakest positions possible in a debate. You would have to take a random snipit from one of 9's posts to get any weaker.

Yeah! Take that Mr. YoYo!

:)

:lol:

999969999
02-04-2011, 09:58 PM
All three of these forms of energy have a proven track record. They work and they are cheap.


All three forms of energy are only "cheap" when you ignore the environmental impact of producing them...which you seem completely willing to do. So, you want to pay more for electricity and gasoline? I have lot more fun things to spend my money on than that, and our economic system only works if the basics-- such as energy-- remain cheap and affordable for businesses and for the masses, because if the masses have to spend too much of their paycheck on energy, then they can't buy our steaks, and that wouldn't be good for business. Do you see how this works? And do you see why green energy wouldn't work?

As for "reliable", explain this, please. (http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_17288888?nclick_check=1) or this? http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/02/03/20110203srp-cuts-power-to-customers.html The Springerville/Eagar generating station had a brief moment of unreliability mainly because they were not prepared for the huge demand caused by cold weather which we know is really global warming. So, should the Springerville/Eagar station be shut down and abandoned? No, it should be beefed up so it can handle anything that global warming, er global cooling? throws at it. ...

And you forgot to mention what you think of France using nuclear power for their electricity needs.

999969999
02-04-2011, 10:00 PM
Yeah! Take that Mr. YoYo!

:)

:lol:

I know! It made me laugh, too.

Now, where is Mr. YoYo?

clocker
02-04-2011, 10:40 PM
And you forgot to mention what you think of France using nuclear power for their electricity needs.
I admit to being conflicted about nuclear power.
Given the absolutely horrific ecological record of normal public utilities, I sure as hell wouldn't let private industry have anything to do with it, so we're talking about government control...is that something you're good with?
I've yet to hear any solution to the waste issue either.
Apparently, Nevada isn't real hot on being the waste dump for the nation...maybe Eagar would like to step up?
And there is still the water issue- reactors need a LOT of water for cooling, so access to a reliable supply, either the ocean or rivers is required and that seriously restricts available locations.
This would require a major upgrade of transmission capability, again this means a coordinated national (i.e., gubmint) program.

So, as I said, conflicted.

megabyteme
02-04-2011, 11:57 PM
Don't forget about those sneeky, sneeky terrorists, clocker. We must "never forget" about the terrorists.

clocker
02-05-2011, 01:26 AM
If I were a terrorist, intent on screwing up America, I'd sit in my cave and write checks to Republicans.

megabyteme
02-05-2011, 05:45 AM
If I were a terrorist, intent on screwing up America, I'd sit in my cave and write checks to Republicans.

I'm fairly certain that is common practice.

clocker
02-05-2011, 06:55 AM
It's working, so I'm sure it is.

Every $1000 is a virgin in Paradise.

whatcdfan
02-05-2011, 02:21 PM
Yeah! Take that Mr. YoYo!:)

He and His nation has already taken Israel from you guys, what more could you want him to have?

@YoYoY: its for you mate :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQn2fGbyaPQ

999969999
02-05-2011, 04:03 PM
And you forgot to mention what you think of France using nuclear power for their electricity needs.
I admit to being conflicted about nuclear power.
Given the absolutely horrific ecological record of normal public utilities, I sure as hell wouldn't let private industry have anything to do with it, so we're talking about government control...is that something you're good with?

A.P.S. is doing a fine job running Palo Verde. Who says private companies can't do it right?


I've yet to hear any solution to the waste issue either.
Apparently, Nevada isn't real hot on being the waste dump for the nation...maybe Eagar would like to step up?

Have you driven through southwestern Nevada-- from Las Vegas to Reno? There are tons of areas to dump nuclear waste and most of that area has no towns-- other than a few ghost towns along the way-- to complain about the dumping.

As for Eagar, there are a few areas north and also to the east where nobody has ever lived, and if done properly, nuclear dumping would not pose any significan threat to the town of Eagar. But why not dump it in an area that has hundreds and hundreds of miles of uninhabitable desert like southwestern Nevada.


And there is still the water issue- reactors need a LOT of water for cooling, so access to a reliable supply, either the ocean or rivers is required and that seriously restricts available locations.

Not really. Palo Verde uses toilet water from Phoenix. How green is that?!

http://www.aps.com/general_info/aboutAPS_18.html


This would require a major upgrade of transmission capability, again this means a coordinated national (i.e., gubmint) program.

So, as I said, conflicted.

What I am saying is that we need to do something to get off all foreign oil and energy, to the point that when crappy little third world countries like Egypt start causing problems we can just sit back and ignore them and not care at all about what happens. What we're doing now is not working anymore and it is time for a change.

999969999
02-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Yeah! Take that Mr. YoYo!:)

He and His nation has already taken Israel from you guys, what more could you want him to have?

@YoYoY: its for you mate :)



What?

I don't care about Israel. You can have them back, as far as I'm concerned.

Once we become energy self-sufficient, you can have the entire middle east back, and let it return to the way it was before we bought any oil from them, or cared about the area at all.

whatcdfan
02-05-2011, 05:08 PM
What?

I don't care about Israel. You can have them back, as far as I'm concerned.

Once we become energy self-sufficient, you can have the entire middle east back, and let it return to the way it was before we bought any oil from them, or cared about the area at all.

Dont resemble me that you are stupid enough to believe that you are the sole owner of the humanity somewhere in the depths of your confused mind.
As ironic as it may seems but true that you are talking like you (once again) solely own the middle east and the rest of the world and simultaneously complaining about the hike in the gas prices.

I thank you for explicitly displaying that the million of middle eastern Humans are only a commodity for you which you traded for a more profitable asset(in your opinion) i.e Energy

Also i would advise you to start caring about the Israel and jews as your ancestors did since last 2000 years or you may end up inhabiting on a planet with no gas/energy at all.

btw i would love to have that middle east back which it was in the medieval times, full of knowledge/peace/security/power/Modesty and also i would love to see you acting as the decoits and using all the brutality you could ( which includes eating up moslem children alive) to get hold of mere bounty by trying securing the trade routes from India and china

devilsadvocate
02-05-2011, 07:01 PM
Once we become energy self-sufficient, you can have the entire middle east back, and let it return to the way it was before we bought any oil from them, or cared about the area at all.

The free market isn't going to make the country self sufficient, it would take a hardline government dictate on not just what fuel we use, but how we use it to achieve that.

Instead of bitching about the rest of the country, why don't you just go ahead and be energy self sufficient yourself? People do it, why haven't you, who has more resources available to achieve it, done so?

999969999
02-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Instead of bitching about the rest of the country, why don't you just go ahead and be energy self sufficient yourself? People do it, why haven't you, who has more resources available to achieve it, done so?

Good point. One of the things my grandparents are buying me, as sort of a bribe if you will, to get me to move to Oregon and attend the University of Oregon, is a Chevy Volt. As long as I just drive it around the town of Eugene, I won't need to fill it up with any gas. And if enough people did something like that, we could at least reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

999969999
02-05-2011, 08:36 PM
What?

I don't care about Israel. You can have them back, as far as I'm concerned.

Once we become energy self-sufficient, you can have the entire middle east back, and let it return to the way it was before we bought any oil from them, or cared about the area at all.

Dont resemble me that you are stupid enough to believe that you are the sole owner of the humanity somewhere in the depths of your confused mind.
As ironic as it may seems but true that you are talking like you (once again) solely own the middle east and the rest of the world and simultaneously complaining about the hike in the gas prices.

I thank you for explicitly displaying that the million of middle eastern Humans are only a commodity for you which you traded for a more profitable asset(in your opinion) i.e Energy

Also i would advise you to start caring about the Israel and jews as your ancestors did since last 2000 years or you may end up inhabiting on a planet with no gas/energy at all.

btw i would love to have that middle east back which it was in the medieval times, full of knowledge/peace/security/power/Modesty and also i would love to see you acting as the decoits and using all the brutality you could ( which includes eating up moslem children alive) to get hold of mere bounty by trying securing the trade routes from India and china

???

You're saying that my Austrian ancestors ate Muslim children alive? Not very likely.

devilsadvocate
02-05-2011, 11:24 PM
Good point. One of the things my grandparents are buying me, as sort of a bribe if you will, to get me to move to Oregon and attend the University of Oregon, is a Chevy Volt. As long as I just drive it around the town of Eugene, I won't need to fill it up with any gas. And if enough people did something like that, we could at least reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
Yeah, that screams energy self sufficiency. :noes:

You have land, cattle and natural resources. You have the ability to go off the grid. You have the ability to produce your own energy supply. You don't have to be innovative, others have already given you a model to work from.


You could even produce your own fuel for transportation.

megabyteme
02-06-2011, 06:40 AM
which includes eating up moslem children alive


???

You're saying that my Austrian ancestors ate Muslim children alive? Not very likely.

Alive? That's a bit over the top, IMO. To get any real flavor, they need to be salted. I would offer some additional, more modernized ingredients, but I will forgo culinary advancements in favor of a more "traditional" recipe.


EDIT- Alright, one hint... finding the right oil will bring out a nuttiness you will have to experience first-hand to believe.

whatcdfan
02-06-2011, 05:23 PM
???

You're saying that my Austrian ancestors ate Muslim children alive? Not very likely.

If you cannot do any better then those question marks, why the fuck you were yelling for the YoYoY to show up :huh:

btw i am not surprised to see, with your limited intelligence that is the only point you could address from my post

As for the eating part, i will still make you suck your dick,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_12
This is only what i could find with little search, for the full story look for the history channel documentary of the first crusade or the book titled "The book of Saladin"

devilsadvocate
02-11-2011, 01:41 AM
I wonder if Mubarakis is deliberately refusing to step down in order to provoke riots so he can use it as justification to use force to crack down on the protesters

clocker
02-11-2011, 05:23 AM
That would be a logical strategy if he thought he had enough outside support to weather the inevitable chaos that would ensue.
I don't think he does, all his fellow mid-East strongmen must be treading carefully to avoid sparking similar populist uprisings at home and overt support for Mubarik might be the genesis for their own ousters.

It's lonely at the top.

999969999
02-17-2011, 05:17 PM
???

You're saying that my Austrian ancestors ate Muslim children alive? Not very likely.

If you cannot do any better then those question marks, why the fuck you were yelling for the YoYoY to show up :huh:

btw i am not surprised to see, with your limited intelligence that is the only point you could address from my post

As for the eating part, i will still make you suck your dick,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_12
This is only what i could find with little search, for the full story look for the history channel documentary of the first crusade or the book titled "The book of Saladin"

No thanks, that's what my Fräulein is for.

I still don't see where you have provided any proof about my ancestors eating Muslim babies.

Snee
02-17-2011, 08:51 PM
I could see that working. With the proper spices. Maybe some sage.

Maybe flambéed. Kittens for garnish.

999969999
02-18-2011, 05:10 PM
...

whatcdfan
02-18-2011, 05:21 PM
I still don't see where you have provided any proof about my ancestors eating Muslim babies.

I give up, Sorry, Cant wake the one who is not sleeping but pretending to be sleeping

btw the part of my post about your limited intelligence still stands.

This Shit is over, people, dont forget to tune into Sarah Palin's Alaska "Hosni Mubarak's Sahra" :D

Snee
02-18-2011, 05:43 PM
I still don't see where you have provided any proof about my ancestors eating Muslim babies.

I give up, Sorry, Cant wake the one who is not sleeping but pretending to be sleeping

btw the part of my post about your limited intelligence still stands.

This Shit is over, people, dont forget to tune into Sarah Palin's Alaska "Hosni Mubarak's Sahra" :D

A few points:

*Propaganda and demonising one's opponents in a war isn't a new invention, so anything written by either side with regards to the accounts of cannibalism during the crusades should be taken with a a pinch of salt.

*It's not getting any truer just because some scraggly-bearded douchebag fanatics living in the arsehole of the world have picked that up as proof of how evil europeans and or americans today are. In fact, it loses credibility.

*It's completely possible to be descended from europe and not be related to any of the Tafurs or Franks or whatever it was who were supposed to have practiced cannibalism during the crusades. The odds are probably good that most of europe is.

*Pointing towards crimes commited during the dark ages is a really shoddy way of arguing, unless we're arguing about why people did things then. Not to mention that anyone living today, descendant of whoever, probably has more common with people living on the other side of the planet, than anyone living then.

*Arguing without having a grasp of the language puts you at a disadvantage to begin with. When you sound like you've been wrung through babelfish and have come out swearing to boot, you sound like twice the jackass.

*Spouting someone else's propaganda whilst telling people to open their minds is something else than clever.


It probably goes without saying, but you're an idiot.

Snee
02-18-2011, 06:15 PM
As for Egypt, what's going on there reminds me a lot of what happened in Tchekoslovakia in 1989.

If they get it right they might well join the modern world properly.

That would mean keeping religion and state properly apart, and not putting any of the boys letting the side down over in the BT section near power, though.

whatcdfan
02-18-2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBBJdZrpJH0


Is it not enough what you've done?
With all the bloodshed you've caused
Yet your greed drives you on
In your brutal race for acquisition
No land is left untouched
Driven by a vile ambition
To have the whole world in your clutch
Every single new addition
To your slave colony
Does nothing to dull your ambition
To leave no nation free
It is indeed a sad condition that you suffer from
This itching desire for a prime position
To have all under your thumb

Not in my name will you fight
Not in my name will you kill
Not in my name will you burn a child
Not in my name will you lie
Not in my name will you invade
Not in my name will you rape
Not in my name will you terrorise
Not in my name will you lie

I warn it's time to take heed
One day you'll find yourself pursued
By every person you've made bleed
You thought they'd been subdued
You were wrong
You were wrong
They've been freed
They've been freed

Against your evil methods of violence and intimidation
Against your hijacking and misinterpretation
Of my peaceful faith and revelation
I shout with billions in this demonstration

Not in my name will you fight
Not in my name will you kill
Not in my name will you burn a child
Not in my name will you lie
Not in my name will you invade
Not in my name will you rape
Not in our name
Will you dare to speak again
Not in our name

Evil Has a new name, I assume you dont like being summoned to the crimes your nation has/is committing so you probably would not have a big enough heart to see the full video so for my convenience i have also put it into words

For all your life, you are trying to engineer the people's morality/mentality/style of living, its disheartening to see you are only left with the reward of telling people who they are and where they live.

Snee
02-18-2011, 08:49 PM
Not everyone who disagrees with you is american, idiot.

I'm guessing America's what that shitty song is meant to be about.

999969999
03-03-2011, 05:46 PM
I can see that the price of gas is going up. This is probably going to kill any economic recovery that was in the works. Not good.