Democracy be damned.

[NotLettingItGo]

Latest news from Greece is that the people cannot be trusted to decide for themselves which way they want their country to go... no they must bend to the will of the German/French alliance. This was decided by the democratically fair method of the German/French alliance telling the Greeks that if they failed to comply they wouldn't just be ejected from the Euro... but from the EU. Thus removing them from the single market completely... because they would have upset the Germans and French. Fuck that it would deny them trading within the single market with non Euro members of the EU... oh no... if you don't comply with what the Germans and French tell you to comply with, you'll be kicked out completely.

It's enough to make you wonder why more than 20,000 Greeks gave their lives in WWII... I have the feeling that it wasn't so their country could be dictated to, and controlled by the Germans... something to do with self-determination... I seem to recall... ah well... Welcome to the Fourth Reich.

[megabyteme]

I haven't been following this, so catch me up if I'm way off, but shouldn't a country that has completely failed financially and needs to be bailed out by more responsible countries fall under some sanctions decided by those who are picking up the tab?

[NotLettingItGo]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...

[megabyteme]

Let me try to help by taking your side in this, and let's see if my arguments help you express what's on your mind. (As I said, I haven't been following this, so let me know if I get way off here. For this part, I am simply trying to pull some of the pieces together.)

-One of the great benefits of bringing the EU together was that it would create a "unified Europe"- bigger, stronger, uncut more competitive against The US and Asia.

-While groups are often put together under egalitarian ideals, it doesn't take long for the stronger members to feel like Atlas, and for the weaker ones to get pushed around.

-As the pecking order begins to become apparent, hostilities form because costs are paid by the stronger, and the weaker reap rewards of being associated with the stronger members- this is after all, the type of argument that is made initially for the formation of the group.

-When resources are abundant (as they were during the formation of the EU), it is easy to share. There are plenty of antelope, and the streams are filled with clear, cool water.

-When times come when resources get scarce, not only are the antelope already gone, but the once friendly neighbor begins looking like the one who not only caused the disappearance of the antelope, but is looking more, and more tasty.

On a side note, it is QUITE ironic Germany would be looking to place crippling sanctions on an already weakened Greece. Have they forgotten (as must the rest of the EU) Germany's motivation for saying screw you to the world after facing impossible sanctions placed upon it post WWI (otherwise known as the WWII Prequel)?

I will say, there is NOTHING more infuriating than having a group of people who have put themselves in the position of deciding your fate, and who speak as if you are not present in the room.

Are these some of the points you were working on, Rej?

[NotLettingItGo]

Yes and no...

OK starting from the top...

The Euro 'experiment' was always doomed to failure... it still is... it's part of an experiment in egalitarianism where politicians have tried to take unequal systems (democratically, economically, and socially) and marry them together for some ideal of what they believe is 'fair'. They called it the EU, and they're busy imposing their definition of 'fair' upon it. The countries of Europe have never been equal though... that's why the French hate the English Language... it's why Germany can dump nuclear power generation, whilst France invests more and more into it. It's why England is big on trading, whilst the other countries aren't... Culturally and therefore socially the countries of Europe are vastly different... and they revel in the differences.

Consequently they're all economically different... trying to marry them together into a single currency is only ever going to benefit the member states which make a lot of money... they (being the money generators) get control of the currency... because they're making the money... Countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy don't have the kind of money generating economies of countries like Germany, France, and Britain. They have other attributes... like for example Tourism in Greece, and Spain. Food in France and Italy... which are very lucrative, but not nearly so lucrative as trading, or engineering manufacturing...

Greece however joined in with this Euro project... as such their currency has had to fit the market conditions which suited Germany... France... Italy, etc, etc. Their involvement has encouraged their social structure to expect their government to deliver the kind of social provision of the likes of Germany, France, etc. That costs money... a lot of it. Which is OK for Germany and France... they make lots of it... Greece makes a fair bit but not enough to provide the same kid of social provision as Germany does... so they borrow the money in the market... borrowing money to 'keep up' with the richer economies has got them into massive debt. The value of economies has fallen... loans now cost more... especially if the lender isn't confident that you can pay it back... like if you're heavily in debt already... it doesn't matter that your next door neighbour is a millionaire... it's your debt, you have to pay it back.

The Greek people (along with people all over Europe) are busy blaming the bankers... but the debts have been created by politicians... it was they who borrowed the money... no banker forced them to do so.
The Greek people are busy telling everyone that the money wasn't spent on them... but it was... it was spent on them by their Governments... just as the debts Britain has is for money our Government has spent... on us, on things we want, on services we demand... it wasn't stashed away in bank accounts... if it was they (and we) would be able to pay it back... it was spent.

All debts must be paid... that's how lending works.

So what we have a system that has encouraged the people and governments of poorer nations to try and provide the same to their people as the governments of richer nations... we call it the EU... complete with its own currency which of course fits well for countries who make a lot of the currency... because they have it to invest and spend... and can therefore largely control what the currency does... but the poorer neighbour is completely fucked... not only have you encouraged him to try and 'keep up' with you... you've taken away his ability to control the value of his currency... and now he's in trouble...

Now those who created this entire mess aren't happy that the Government of Greece... the one the Greeks elected to run their country for them... wants them to decide if they should accept their country being 'ruled' (effective by virtue of telling their Government what it can and can't spend, and therefore provide) by the very people who created the entire debacle in the first place...

There's no democracy here... they've taken democratic countries and subverted the entire democratic thing into something that bears as little resemblance to democracy as the Politburo did... the fate of Greece isn't being decided by the EU (who do at least have one elected chamber)... it's being decided by the presidents and prime ministers of other countries... by people who were never voted for by the Greeks...

[megabyteme]

Some here (usually smarter civilians) tend to think of the mortgage collapse as a modern day "land grab". People were given properties they could not afford- with terms that were unreasonable after the first 2 years, and then the banks gained control of those properties. They also received BILLIONS in the form of bail-out monies.

Looking at the EU situation, it seems similar- there's BILLIONS of dollars being discussed for "bail-out" and those who never had a chance of success are losing control of their homes (country). :hmmm:

[mjmacky]

It's funny when you look at the EU as a whole, they begin to resemble the United States in certain fundamental aspects. They were probably better off being without a union, but rather keeping open borders (like an expansion on the Schengen Agreement).

[brightsid]

Personal opinion but it's not Greece problem anymore. Having read a lot of interesting things the last few months I really believe that it's not even EU problem. The Greek issue is almost over one way or the other. But Italy is already on stage and that is not a small fish anymore. It's the third economy in EU and the 7th in the world. When (not if) they go down then I don't think there is a way back.

It may sound weird ok I love democracy, but if Stalin or Mao can ensure the food,clothes and education of my children right now I don't want to vote.

[megabyteme]

It may sound weird ok I love democracy, but if Stalin or Mao can ensure the food,clothes and education of my children right now I don't want to vote.

Minus the killing of millions, I hope. Wouldn't want to get blood on your new Nikes. A little more to it than "voting"...

[NotLettingItGo]

All those peasants were a pain in the arse though... much like the chavs of today... so I can see his point... most western countries could be improved massively with a bit of 'tidying up' of the underclass... think about it a bit... less congestion on the roads once all them nissan cherrys are gone... no more queues at the checkout at Tescos... it's a win/win all around :noes:

[megabyteme]

All those peasants were a pain in the arse though... much like the chavs of today... so I can see his point... most western countries could be improved massively with a bit of 'tidying up' of the underclass... think about it a bit... less congestion on the roads once all them nissan cherrys are gone... no more queues at the checkout at Tescos... it's a win/win all around :noes:

This is the Drawing Room, so discussion should be kept serious-ish. However, I've worked with the general public (and have seen first-hand the lower end of it, while delivering their food around welfare check time) and I have to say I've had discussions of such things. Good gawd people can be stuuuuuupid. :frusty:

[NotLettingItGo]

I might be serious... the world does have an over population probelm after all.

Sooner or later a serious discussion about population control is going to have to take place... our poor little planet cannot keep an ever increasing number of us supplied with all our needs... we've already seen water riots in some far off lands... so it's a very serious matter.

Stalins solution would at least alleviate the problem somewhat... look at the Chinese and their one child policy... maybe totalitarian states are the way to go... maybe all this democracy... liberty and freedom stuff are as much parts of the problem the world is facing as capitalism is?

Anyway, they're Chavs... no one would miss them :P

[brightsid]

Minus the killing of millions, I hope. Wouldn't want to get blood on your new Nikes. A little more to it than "voting"...
Of course MBM, my point is that democracy, justice, peace etc are great when you can afford to discuss or even search for them. I may sound cynical but that's real life.
My english are probably not good enough to discuss matters like this but I'll try to use a well known example, at least for people who had studied history. I apologize for my poor English in advance

As you probably know democracy first established in ancient Greece in the city of Athens and the Athenian democracy is still considered as an almost direct democracy. The greatest and and the most known period of Athenian democracy is called Golden Age and at that period the city was lead by Pericles. It was after the victory in the Persian war, Acropolis was build at this time and the city was the cultural centre of Greece. But it's not well known that Athenian democracy at it's best was relying in two things, slaves and the taxes all the ally cities had to pay to Athens for being the strongest state. That let's say unfair relation lead to the Peloponnesian War. That was the end of the best ages of Athenian democracy. A detailed example of how Athens considered justice and democracy when these had to do with others is the Milian Dialogue reported by Thucydides. It is characterised as the most famous invented dialogue in a historical work. Milos a small island in Agean Sea (great beaches there :D btw ) was an ally of Athens during the Persian war. At the beginning of Peloponnesian war they tried to stay neutral. But for Athenians it was either with them or against them. So a great Athenian army set out for Milos. As always in ancient Greece before any battle there were negotiations. The main idea of Athenian envoys arguments is the following phrase that describes how people living in the best known democracy are feeling for an ally city.

we Athenians will use no fine words; we will not go out of our way to prove at length that we have a right to rule, because we overthrew the Persians; or that we attack you now because we are suffering any injury at your hands. We should not convince you if we did; nor must you expect to convince us by arguing that, although a colony of the Lacedaemonians, you have taken no part in their expeditions, or that you have never done us any wrong. But you and we should say what we really think, and aim only at what is possible, for we both alike know that into the discussion of human affairs the question of justice only enters where the pressure of necessity is equal, and that the powerful exact what they can, and the weak grant what they must.
Milians refused the terms Athenian won the battle. All the adult men were killed, all the women and children were sold as slaves. All these were decided by the assembly in Athens with direct voting and simple majority

Bottom line and to return to the topic title, democracy can easily be tranformed to "tyranny of the mob". On the other hand every nation should have the right to decide for its future. It's not an is issue of "black or white" and in the end I guess history will be the judge

[999969999]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

[mjmacky]

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You mean the U.S. might have to leave the Euro Zone? Oh noes, what will they do?

[Bucerius]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...




I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

As long as the FED can print money and people have to buy dollar to pay for oil... its like a big monopoly... but the USA controls part of the bank additionally to their own property ;)

[999969999]

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

As long as the FED can print money and people have to buy dollar to pay for oil... its like a big monopoly... but the USA controls part of the bank additionally to their own property ;)

Exactly. Who will enforce it? Who will make us pay it back?

We won't ever pay it back.

[clocker]

Have you informed the customers of your family business about your new policy of debt repayment, i.e., debts can be ignored and ultimately, rejected?
With Christmas coming up, they'll be overjoyed.

[mjmacky]

Have you informed the customers of your family business about your new policy of debt repayment, i.e., debts can be ignored and ultimately, rejected?
With Christmas coming up, they'll be overjoyed.

They have a family business? Please tell me they're a hedge fund firm, please please please.

[temisturk]

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

They may not be able to make you pay directly. But if you're unable to repay your debts then it's likely you will require credit in future and unlikely you will get it without accepting terms you find unpalatable.

[bigboab]

Have you informed the customers of your family business about your new policy of debt repayment, i.e., debts can be ignored and ultimately, rejected?
With Christmas coming up, they'll be overjoyed.

They have a family business? Please tell me they're a hedge fund firm, please please please.

No. They cut all the hedges down to enlarge their grazing area and create a breeding ground for tornadoes.:rolleyes:

[Bucerius]

Yes and no...


All debts must be paid... that's how lending works.



Funny. Who says that? Did you know that people invented a term called bankruptcy?
If a sovereign state decides it will not pay its debt nobody can make it pay, thats current international law.
Lending is one party telling the other it will pay back with or without interest. The risk might be you dont get you money back. No gain without risk.

The consequences might be severe but that was not the point.

A second thing though... How does an economy unity has to be equal inside to have one currency?
The USA are a good example. Texas does better than other states... the question is how do they lend money and are they trustworthy... the EU has
to prove itself. If Greece were to leave the monetary union thats it but others will not.

[brightsid]

Things are getting a little tight around. Yesterday Athens was the field of a rather strange battle. Police with tear gas vs a few hundred masked "protesters". In the middle a great crowd of around two hundred thousand people at first trying to protest and then running for their lives.

Probably there would be blood in the streets in the following weeks and there is a really dark future in front of us. The so called debt crisis is becoming a fight for living as 1/3 of the population is bellow poverty limit and the percentage is growing rapidly. Democracy is nearly forgotten and only a really strong sock can change things.

[sandman_1]

Democracy is the problem. Democracies turn into dictatorships eventually. The good ole US of A is a Constitutional Republic. We have things in common with a Democracy but we are not a fucking Democracy!! No where will find Democracy mentioned in our founding papers or mentioned by the founders themselves. Democracies are mob rule, i.e. majority rule. Our Constitution was made to protect the minorities from the majority, separate the powers of the government, and enumerate governmental powers. We have strayed far from the course and heading towards a Democracy style government. Ask the ancient Greeks if Democracy works. They would say, "Fuck no!!".

About debt, debt you could say is made up. If you know about Fractional Reserve Banking, you would also know that banks only have to keep 10% of your money on hand or around that at any time. So say you deposit $10,000, the bank only has to keep $1000 of that on hand. It then turns around and loans out your money. It even loans out more than what it has on hand, vapor money. It is all digits in the computer or writing on paper. There isn't some machine at the bank making money so it can loan money to you. It loans out money it doesn't even have and says, "Hey you owe me bitch despite the fact that I essentially didn't do anything other than modify something on a computer and it isn't even my money." So in effect, they have enslaved you with your own money, debt.



Banks are an almost irresistible attraction for that element of our society which seeks unearned money.
J. Edgar Hoover




The present Federal Reserve System is a flagrant case of the Government's conferring a special privilege upon bankers. The Government hands to the banks its credit, at virtually no cost to the banks, to be loaned out by the bankers for their own private profit. Still worse, however, is the fact that it gives the bankers practically complete control of the amount of money that shall be in circulation. Not one dollar of these Federal Reserve notes gets into circulation without being borrowed into circulation and without someone paying interest to some bank to keep it circulating. Our present money system is a debt money system. Before a dollar can circulate, a debt must be created. Such a system assumes that you can borrow yourself out of debt.
Willis A. Overholser




It is perhaps well enough that the people of the Nation do not know or understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford


Time to end Central Banking. It is a leech on society.

[glendower]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N2Xh5eN2fXY

Heres a VIDEO With truth at its heart

[hjsq]

glendower I think this is a fiction to stop the machine of life. It is a leech on society.