Israel Palestine

[junkyardking]

Nearly every time I turn on the news I see an other "military strike" or suicide bombing associated with Israel/Palestine, I understand the history is complex but it just continues to go around in circles.

You have hypocrites on both sides claiming this and that.
But in the end the same thing happens, DEATH. :(

My personal view is that Israel has to take quite alot of the blame for the situation, the Palestine refugees were not allowed back in to what is Israel and the now constant repression of the people has created a culture of violence were the only way people see to strike back is to turn themselves into suicide bombers and with the building of "The Wall" I cant see it getting any better :(

I know this is an emotive topic so please keep the flaming to a minimum.

[100%]

It will last as long as
- Ireland's catholics and protestants have problems
- Spain does not give the ETA independence
- Tibet is freed from China

[hobbes]

This topic has been discussed to death here. Guess what, it got nowhere, just like the real life situation.

Your second paragraph basically sums it up.

[RAM%ROD]

It will go on until all the Muslims and Jews are exterminated.

[100%]

RAM%ROD
Do you actually believe in what you just wrote?

[the.gringo]

I doubt Bush's road map to middle eastern peace is going to do any good in this situation and i think it will go on for as long as Ram%Rod remains stupid

[RAM%ROD]

Originally posted by Zedaxax@27 December 2003 - 03:23
RAM%ROD
Do you actually believe in what you just wrote?
THE QUESTION WAS "Israel Palestine, How long will this go on?"


YES , "It will go on until all the Muslims and Jews are exterminated."

[Billy_Dean]

It will go on until Israel gets a government that is commited to peace.

Not much chance of that in the near future.


:)

[junkyardking]

Originally posted by RAM%ROD+27 December 2003 - 05:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RAM%ROD @ 27 December 2003 - 05:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Zedaxax@27 December 2003 - 03:23
RAM%ROD
Do you actually believe in what you just wrote?
THE QUESTION WAS "Israel Palestine, How long will this go on?"


YES , "It will go on until all the Muslims and Jews are exterminated." [/b][/quote]
That most disgusting and ignorant statement I’ve ever heard.

If people had the same logic as you, you probably wouldn’t even exist now.


Be that in Europe were they were always at war with each other or the South African arpartied regime.


I suspect there would have been peace if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been assinanted by a Jewish extremist, always seems that the threat of assination is always alot closer to home than from enemies afar be they Gandhi or Martin Luther King.

[kAb]

Originally posted by junkyardking+27 December 2003 - 21:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (junkyardking @ 27 December 2003 - 21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by RAM%ROD@27 December 2003 - 05:50
<!--QuoteBegin-Zedaxax@27 December 2003 - 03:23
RAM%ROD
Do you actually believe in what you just wrote?
THE QUESTION WAS "Israel Palestine, How long will this go on?"


YES , "It will go on until all the Muslims and Jews are exterminated."
That most disgusting and ignorant statement I’ve ever heard.

If people had the same logic as you, you probably wouldn’t even exist now.


Be that in Europe were they were always at war with each other or the South African arpartied regime.


I suspect there would have been peace if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been assinanted by a Jewish extremist, always seems that the threat of assination is always alot closer to home than from enemies afar be they Gandhi or Martin Luther King. [/b][/quote]
the sad thing is, this is true.

both sides hate eachother, and each has their rights as humans to live there.

If the muslims would stop bitching and blowing themselves up, maybe they could have a nice normal war. But they go after children and women.

If the jews would stop killing innocent bystanders everytime they roll their tanks down the strip to knock over the muslims throwing rocks and/or strapping bombs to themselves, maybe they could have a nice normal war.

There is to much idiocy on both sides for there to be a resolution anytime soon.

I hate to pick on one group, but it is the islamic extremists that are the problem. Possibly even Islam itself.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by kAb@28 December 2003 - 15:43
I hate to pick on one group, but it is the islamic extremists that are the problem. Possibly even Islam itself.
You lost it here mate, you could well have said this the other way round too ...

I hate to pick on one group, but it is the jewish extremists that are the problem. Possibly even judaism itself.

Perhaps you should just have said "Extremists".



:)

[aizlumzan]

US is to be blamed for Israel situation. they are blind towards Israel. Everyone knows why. Again Israelis and Palestines have grown so much hatred that its now impossible for them to stay in peace anymore. UN should divide the place into two independent country. But again Israel wont let it happen with the help of US. Israel is the only weak point for USA.

TO kAb:: you want a normal war in middle east? how is that possible when US is directly helping Israel???? If there was a war in Middle east Israel exterminate Palestines in a day.

[cpt_azad]

Originally posted by aizlumzan@28 December 2003 - 03:26
US is to be blamed for Israel situation. they are blind towards Israel. Everyone knows why. Again Israelis and Palestines have grown so much hatred that its now impossible for them to stay in peace anymore. UN should divide the place into two independent country. But again Israel wont let it happen with the help of US. Israel is the only weak point for USA.

TO kAb:: you want a normal war in middle east? how is that possible when US is directly helping Israel???? If there was a war in Middle east Israel exterminate Palestines in a day.
couldnt have said it better myself. kAD, everytime i turn on the news, i hear about islamic this and muslim that, mostly bad things. did you ever realize most of the media in the western world are pro-israeli? ever seen CNN and how biased they are? every year, billions of dollars are given to israel from the U.S. government, thats like their (Israels) economy right there, the U.S. how would you feel if people came over to your country, destroyed your homes, started killing your families and calling it a casualty of war? what war? this would have never have happened if america and britain didnt create Israel after WW2. all of this could have been avoided <_< . jews have been persecuted all their lives from ancient egypt to ww2, now it looks like its the muslims turn to take on that role, how disgraceful. youd expect that Israel would try and prevent something like this, but then again, its Israel we&#39;re talking about. i think that its time the U.N. steps in, divides up Israel fairly (yes, including Jerusalem), and stops all this violence and madness. and NO, for the last time, Im not an anti-semitic, for gods sake, everytime i tell people the facts about Israel and Jews, they call me a nazi, an anti-semitic, and things like that. people can be so ignorant, why? the media, like i said, its pro-israeli and shows everyone (or tries to anyways) what they want to show.

[ilw]

this would have never have happened if america and britain didnt create Israel after WW2.
The fighting was going on well before Israel actually existed, and post second world war the jews made up roughly about 1/2 the population of Palestine, but they were generally much poorer than the Arab 1/2, it was clearly a situation that wasn&#39;t going to get better. The creation of israel was on the cards since 1897, before Britain had a mandate in Palestine, and technically i don&#39;t think Britain or America ever actually created Israel, though Britain and the UN did try.
The persecution of jews during the Second World War made the creation of Israel almost inevitable and whoever did it, I don&#39;t think it was ever going to be a stable situation.

[noname12]

Yeah thats very clever of you guy&#39;s, you kinda remind me of a certain person during the 40&#39;s "The only reason life is so bad is because of the Jews", Blaming the whole Of Muslims and Jews is just plane idiocy, it has nothing to do with either faiths or the followers just rather those within the faiths who profit more from war and use faith to persue there own agenda&#39;s. The "extremists" on both sides are the ones to blame, not the faith and not the normal followers who wish to carry on with there lives. Get rid of Arafat and Sharon and put people in who are willing to talk it over rather then throw explosives at each other and before you say anything, arafat is as much a Muslim as I am, so out goes the "Oh Islam is to blame" story.

[kAb]

The problem is, the Israelis are organized, and don&#39;t believe killing themselves will get anything done.

These muslims, who think killing themselves is OK, are a real problem. The israelis aren&#39;t stupid enough to strap bombs to themselves and run towards citizens. They are just OVER-defending themselves.

But they aren&#39;t extremists.

[<TROUBLE^MAKER>]

Originally posted by RAM%ROD@27 December 2003 - 00:32
It will go on until all the Muslims and Jews are exterminated.
They certainly are doing a good job of exterminating each other, Merry Christmas (http://www2.b3ta.com/mind-control/)

[noname12]

Originally posted by kAb@28 December 2003 - 20:30
The problem is, the Israelis are organized, and don&#39;t believe killing themselves will get anything done.

These muslims, who think killing themselves is OK, are a real problem. The israelis aren&#39;t stupid enough to strap bombs to themselves and run towards citizens. They are just OVER-defending themselves.

But they aren&#39;t extremists.
From my position I do not see my Palestinian brothers are doing anything stupid, I just see people going above and beyond the call of duty, willing to sacrifice them selves for there people. It is the leaders who are the ones doing it all wrong on both sides, the military on Israel have to follow orders its as simple as that, disobey an order you will be looking at the death penalty (worst case scenario), so when an order comes from the top rankers who are all extreme right wing "Jews" to go in and buldoze the hell out of houses, they do it. The same goes for the Palestinians, for lack of any military establishment they join the closest thing and follow there orders, they get ordered to bomb this place and that, they follow it.

Both sides are doing wrong and both sides are doing acts which are stupid but the wrong and stupidity lies in the hands of the leaders. and finally, is there really any such thing as over defending your self when your land is at risk?
From my views, as long as we keep hitting civilians and destroying civilian homes, they have the right to hit back, sharon is just a hypocrite.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by noname12@29 December 2003 - 14:58

Well put.

My comment about extremists was also aimed at the top. The Israeli government is held to ransom by extreme jewish groups who still have a greater Israel, and the expulsion of all muslims from "their" land as their goal. If the people of Israel really want peace, they need a strong Labor government.

As for the Palestinians; I&#39;ve lived among muslims, in scarier places than Palestine, some of them are very extreme. A lot of their views are very black and white, you cross me, I kill you. You will never stop individuals carrying out acts of terror, ever&#33; Organised terror can be stamped out tho, mostly at least. This needs a government willing to do it. But governments need to roughly follow the desires of the people, or they get kicked out. What the Palestinians need is some good news, and only Israel can provide it.


:)

[cpt_azad]

Originally posted by noname12@28 December 2003 - 10:19
Yeah thats very clever of you guy&#39;s, you kinda remind me of a certain person during the 40&#39;s "The only reason life is so bad is because of the Jews", Blaming the whole Of Muslims and Jews is just plane idiocy, it has nothing to do with either faiths or the followers just rather those within the faiths who profit more from war and use faith to persue there own agenda&#39;s. The "extremists" on both sides are the ones to blame, not the faith and not the normal followers who wish to carry on with there lives. Get rid of Arafat and Sharon and put people in who are willing to talk it over rather then throw explosives at each other and before you say anything, arafat is as much a Muslim as I am, so out goes the "Oh Islam is to blame" story.


From my position I do not see my Palestinian brothers are doing anything stupid, I just see people going above and beyond the call of duty, willing to sacrifice them selves for there people. It is the leaders who are the ones doing it all wrong on both sides, the military on Israel have to follow orders its as simple as that, disobey an order you will be looking at the death penalty (worst case scenario), so when an order comes from the top rankers who are all extreme right wing "Jews" to go in and buldoze the hell out of houses, they do it. The same goes for the Palestinians, for lack of any military establishment they join the closest thing and follow there orders, they get ordered to bomb this place and that, they follow it.

Both sides are doing wrong and both sides are doing acts which are stupid but the wrong and stupidity lies in the hands of the leaders. and finally, is there really any such thing as over defending your self when your land is at risk?
From my views, as long as we keep hitting civilians and destroying civilian homes, they have the right to hit back, sharon is just a hypocrite.

:o &#33; i honestly couldn&#39;t have worded better myself. kAD, you think that all muslims are extremists? tell me something, can i buy pot from you? seriously though, both sides have extremists. if all muslims are extremists, then truly their wouldn&#39;t be a majority of muslims in this world, now would there? sharon and arafat are like twin brothers, just caught on opposite sides. so kAD, let me come over to your house with a bulldozer, and being the good "palestinian" you are, defend yourself. now let&#39;s modify the situation, i just destroyed your house told you to go live somewhere else, and then what would do? go to the police? in this case the police, it would most likely have to be the U.N. but of course, they&#39;re not gonna help, they&#39;ll try, but won&#39;t be able to. so now what? strap yourself to a bomb and go kill the "infidel" (in which case, yes, the israeli, the one who destroyed your house and booted you, should have every right to defend him/herself). i am not sterotyping here. back to my point, if all muslims are extremists, wait, if all palestinians are extremists, then why do palestinians exist right now? shouldn&#39;t they all be dead, or better yet, if they were that bad, they would destroyed the opposition by now. please think b4 u type. and yes, there are many extremists-muslims that use religion as a front. study islam a little, it does not certainly teach terrorism and killing, hell, the law codes and stuff they show on tv about how ppl in iran or watever get their hands chopped off for stealing, that&#39;s all bs. they DO NOT teach that kind of stuff in ISLAM, that&#39;s just something from IRANIAN culture, and AFGHANISTANI CULTURE. frankly, people who use religion for murder should be murdered themselves for disgracing a faith. i realize that their are many muslim terrorists and extremists, but lets c, a billion muslims, and out of that how many extremists? now take christanity, 3 billion (i think), out of that how many are extremists? KKK anyone? or how about that extremist christain militia that slaughtered those palestinians in those camps, whats the name... i forgot, but will edit this when i remember, it was in 1979 i think. you don&#39;t have to take my word for it, read up and study b4 u post bs.

[seamonkey]

From my position I do not see my Palestinian brothers are doing anything stupid, I just see people going above and beyond the call of duty, willing to sacrifice them selves for there people. It is the leaders who are the ones doing it all wrong on both sides, the military on Israel have to follow orders its as simple as that, disobey an order you will be looking at the death penalty (worst case scenario), so when an order comes from the top rankers who are all extreme right wing "Jews" to go in and buldoze the hell out of houses, they do it. The same goes for the Palestinians, for lack of any military establishment they join the closest thing and follow there orders, they get ordered to bomb this place and that, they follow it.

Both sides are doing wrong and both sides are doing acts which are stupid but the wrong and stupidity lies in the hands of the leaders. and finally, is there really any such thing as over defending your self when your land is at risk?
From my views, as long as we keep hitting civilians and destroying civilian homes, they have the right to hit back, sharon is just a hypocrite.

I cant believe you call yourself pro israel. People look down on israelis and jews because of people like you. While its true that there are may be innocent people in the refugee camps, many have already gone to Jordan like they should all do. Jordan is like 5 time larger than Israel. And as for the arguement that they were there first, Palestinians didnt even exist before the 1800&#39;s. Palestinians are a blend of people from different Arab countries who emmigrated from areas of the Ottoman Empire, they only stayed because the econimic opportunities there were better than the ones at their homesbecause of the jewish farms that needed a labor force. Hell israel wasnt even habitable until the 19th century and that only because of devoted jews who were being persecuted in Russia cultured the land and used eucalyptys trees to drain the swamps that were caused by the deportation of the jews nearly 1000 years ago by the Persian Empire. Call me heartless but so much land has already been given away that it the Jews should keep whats left. After all Jerusalem is open to everyone, unlike someother places. And by the way, i wouldnt call suicide bombing going above and beyond anything. in Islam as in all religions that i know of,except for maybe satanism(the real kind not the disney version), suicide is one of the biggest sins you can partake in so people who kill themselves are basically going against their beliefs. If you condone, or in youre case elevate, suicide bombers you really are stupid.

[noname12]

Originally posted by seamonkey@29 December 2003 - 11:44

From my position I do not see my Palestinian brothers are doing anything stupid, I just see people going above and beyond the call of duty, willing to sacrifice them selves for there people. It is the leaders who are the ones doing it all wrong on both sides, the military on Israel have to follow orders its as simple as that, disobey an order you will be looking at the death penalty (worst case scenario), so when an order comes from the top rankers who are all extreme right wing "Jews" to go in and buldoze the hell out of houses, they do it. The same goes for the Palestinians, for lack of any military establishment they join the closest thing and follow there orders, they get ordered to bomb this place and that, they follow it.

Both sides are doing wrong and both sides are doing acts which are stupid but the wrong and stupidity lies in the hands of the leaders. and finally, is there really any such thing as over defending your self when your land is at risk?
From my views, as long as we keep hitting civilians and destroying civilian homes, they have the right to hit back, sharon is just a hypocrite.

I cant believe you call yourself pro israel. People look down on israelis and jews because of people like you. While its true that there are may be innocent people in the refugee camps, many have already gone to Jordan like they should all do. Jordan is like 5 time larger than Israel. And as for the arguement that they were there first, Palestinians didnt even exist before the 1800&#39;s. Palestinians are a blend of people from different Arab countries who emmigrated from areas of the Ottoman Empire, they only stayed because the econimic opportunities there were better than the ones at their homesbecause of the jewish farms that needed a labor force. Hell israel wasnt even habitable until the 19th century and that only because of devoted jews who were being persecuted in Russia cultured the land and used eucalyptys trees to drain the swamps that were caused by the deportation of the jews nearly 1000 years ago by the Persian Empire. Call me heartless but so much land has already been given away that it the Jews should keep whats left. After all Jerusalem is open to everyone, unlike someother places. And by the way, i wouldnt call suicide bombing going above and beyond anything. in Islam as in all religions that i know of,except for maybe satanism(the real kind not the disney version), suicide is one of the biggest sins you can partake in so people who kill themselves are basically going against their beliefs. If you condone, or in youre case elevate, suicide bombers you really are stupid.
Tell me something, what is the difference between an Israeli soldier shooting children for throwing rocks at a tank and a suicide bomber destroying a cafe for buldozing down his house? You are the idiotic one who speaks in a thing he does not understand, there are two sides to a story and you wish to look at only one.

Again you speak in things you do not understand, do not start an argument on religion and there beliefs because in all faiths, including my own, fighting for your land even if it involves suicide missions such as ones where my government sent in foot soldiers into a heavely gaurded area of palestine to get ambushed and killed are acceptable.

As for the rights of the lands, the rights of the land belongs to those who where there, which are the palestinians who also include jews, try looking it up you will find that the palestinian populus is filled with Jewish, Christian and Muslim people who are all suffering the same treatement, just as in south lebanon, and something which my interest you even more, you will find just like in hizbullah, that umong the Muslims there are other faiths fighting for palestine, interesting fact that isnt it.

I find the bias on people pathetic, I am pro Israel more then any of you lot, and I would see a day where my land is safe and propspering and all those who live within it enjoying life to the full, but that will only come if my government stops its hard ways with the palestinians and agree&#39;s to sit and talk.
I will not go back on my words, to me the palestinian fighters are doing what they consider to be right and for that I admire them, giving there lives for a greater cause, just as the soldiers on my side who get hailed as hero&#39;s who actually died while doing something illegal according to human rights and UN resolutions.

The stupidity of words in my views lies on your part not mine.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by seamonkey@29 December 2003 - 20:44
While its true that there are may be innocent people in the refugee camps, many have already gone to Jordan like they should all do.
I was gonna call you a prick, but Noname did it better.


:)

[Pitbul]

99% of the people on this board complaining about problems will never think twice about doing something about it. thats all i hear in this news section is more looser nerds typing aways complaining acting as if them talking about it is gonna help the situation. i dont complain about things i have no intention of changing cause i&#39;d be a hypocrit if i did. thats like someone being innocent but on death row and me yelling at Court TV screaming his innocent. haha i never knew their were so many stupid adults in other countries as well.

[ilw]

Even if we don&#39;t go out campaigning about them or trying to change the world, whats wrong with intelligent discussion of serious issues. At best it might change a few peoples minds and at worst you&#39;re almost bound to learn something.

[kAb]

Originally posted by cpt_azad@29 December 2003 - 01:34
:o &#33; i honestly couldn&#39;t have worded better myself. kAD, you think that all muslims are extremists? tell me something, can i buy pot from you? seriously though, both sides have extremists. if all muslims are extremists, then truly their wouldn&#39;t be a majority of muslims in this world, now would there? sharon and arafat are like twin brothers, just caught on opposite sides. so kAD, let me come over to your house with a bulldozer, and being the good "palestinian" you are, defend yourself. now let&#39;s modify the situation, i just destroyed your house told you to go live somewhere else, and then what would do? go to the police? in this case the police, it would most likely have to be the U.N. but of course, they&#39;re not gonna help, they&#39;ll try, but won&#39;t be able to. so now what? strap yourself to a bomb and go kill the "infidel" (in which case, yes, the israeli, the one who destroyed your house and booted you, should have every right to defend him/herself). i am not sterotyping here. back to my point, if all muslims are extremists, wait, if all palestinians are extremists, then why do palestinians exist right now? shouldn&#39;t they all be dead, or better yet, if they were that bad, they would destroyed the opposition by now. please think b4 u type. and yes, there are many extremists-muslims that use religion as a front. study islam a little, it does not certainly teach terrorism and killing, hell, the law codes and stuff they show on tv about how ppl in iran or watever get their hands chopped off for stealing, that&#39;s all bs. they DO NOT teach that kind of stuff in ISLAM, that&#39;s just something from IRANIAN culture, and AFGHANISTANI CULTURE. frankly, people who use religion for murder should be murdered themselves for disgracing a faith. i realize that their are many muslim terrorists and extremists, but lets c, a billion muslims, and out of that how many extremists? now take christanity, 3 billion (i think), out of that how many are extremists? KKK anyone? or how about that extremist christain militia that slaughtered those palestinians in those camps, whats the name... i forgot, but will edit this when i remember, it was in 1979 i think. you don&#39;t have to take my word for it, read up and study b4 u post bs.
I have never used drugs nor drunk alcohol. I dont understand what that comment was about.

I never said that all muslims are extremists. But many in the middle east are.

I think the israelis bulldozing houses is TERRIBLE.

But when the extremists target buses full of women and children, thats just plain wrong.

I dont agree with the U.s. supporting israel either, as they refuse to find a solution to the problem. building walls will not keep terrorists out.

Sadly, the Koran promotes exterminating those that do not believe in islam.

[ilw]

Sadly, the Koran promotes exterminating those that do not believe in islam.
I think most major religions have some texts in them turning a blind eye to the killing of heretics, imo its an example of religious natural selection.
Those that do not preach such acts are the herbivores of the religious world and act as fodder for those that do :rolleyes: just like most major religions will have some stuff about: converting as many people as you can, having as many kids as you can, passing the religion down as strongly as possible to the kids etc. If you put those sorts of things into a religion then the religion is going to do better than if you don&#39;t

:ph34r: :ph34r:

[cpt_azad]

Sadly, the Koran promotes exterminating those that do not believe in islam.

riiiiiiiiiiiiite. i said study it, not make up bs u heard from other ppl <_< . pls, state where in the koran it says that, and i will happily stfu. it&#39;s ppl like you who make a disgrace to america/canada.

[kAb]

"He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death shall be recompensed by Allah" (4:100).

"believers [shall], take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends" (5:51)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God&#39;s religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

[cpt_azad]

that shut me up. all of a sudden, i don&#39;t feel safe anymore. i formally take back the things i said, you do know what u type is true, good for you&#33;

[human_pet]

Originally posted by kAb@30 December 2003 - 01:32
"He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death shall be recompensed by Allah" (4:100).

"believers [shall], take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends" (5:51)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God&#39;s religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
All I can say is,read from here: The rules of wars in Islam (http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=4007)

I&#39;m sorry that I can&#39;t answer directly ,it&#39;s because I&#39;m having trouble..umm,thinking (no,i&#39;m not drunk :P ),And I urge you to please read the webpage that I just gave you :)

[p2p]

from what i seen on telly
Today:Palestine suicide bomber kill a few Israels...
Tomorrow: Israel take revenge by bombing Palestine areas... killing some Palestine
The next day: Palestine swore revenge for the bombing of yesterday and more suicide bombers
the day after: Israel swore revenge for the bombing of yesterday and 2 day before and attack more areas
next day: Palestine take revenge
next day: Israel fight back
next day: Palestine bombers strike areas
next day: Israel fight back

revenge and revenge and revenge
An Eye for An Eye... Everyone lost their eyes :(

Just a question
Do you think that the aillies after WWII should have created a state of israel in Europe rather than the middle-east. The Europeans would maybe be more tolerant
where? Eastern Europe where the borders are unclear at that time and new countries are being formed at that times.

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by p2p@30 December 2003 - 13:21
Just a question
Do you think that the aillies after WWII should have created a state of israel in Europe rather than the middle-east. The Europeans would maybe be more tolerant
where? Eastern Europe where the borders are unclear at that time and new countries are being formed at that times.
Absolutely&#33; It should have been carved out of Germany. That it wasn&#39;t, is a disgrace. I think the Europeans were glad to get rid of them. Who can blame them when you look at the way they act as a country?

:)

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by p2p@30 December 2003 - 05:21
... Eastern Europe where the borders are unclear at that time and new countries are being formed at that times.
Not really. Most of it was the USSR.

:ninja:

[noname12]

Originally posted by kAb@30 December 2003 - 01:32
"He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death shall be recompensed by Allah" (4:100).

"believers [shall], take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends" (5:51)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God&#39;s religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
You are seriously a fool and if I thought it was worth while I would argue with you over every single sentence you just put, but its not worth it.
If you actually understand the Quran, you would have posted the entire section which would clearly show why it is mentioned to fight.
I will post them later when I have time, again I say if you do not understand it dont talk of it, you clearly dont understand Islam, so dont try to act like you do just because you can look up a few words of the quran by going on al-islam.org and typing the words "War" and "Death".

[kAb]

Originally posted by noname12+29 December 2003 - 22:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (noname12 @ 29 December 2003 - 22:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kAb@30 December 2003 - 01:32
"He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death shall be recompensed by Allah" (4:100).

"believers [shall], take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends" (5:51)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God&#39;s religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
You are seriously a fool and if I thought it was worth while I would argue with you over every single sentence you just put, but its not worth it.
If you actually understand the Quran, you would have posted the entire section which would clearly show why it is mentioned to fight.
I will post them later when I have time, again I say if you do not understand it dont talk of it, you clearly dont understand Islam, so dont try to act like you do just because you can look up a few words of the quran by going on al-islam.org and typing the words "War" and "Death". [/b][/quote]
whats al-islam.org? :huh:

[noname12]

[Shakir 9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[Yusufali 9:27] Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
[Pickthal 9:27] Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


I do not see mension of death to jews and christians in any of the noted and recognized translations.

[Yusufali 2:190] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors

[Yusufali 2:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

[Yusufali 2:192] But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Yusufali 2:193] And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Do you see what is written above my friend, fight those who fight you but do not transgress the limits and it continues below all this only applies to those who FIGHT you.
And again it says if they cease then do not fight, sounds logical to me doesnt it.


[Yusufali 2:216] Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.


[Yusufali 2:217] They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

Again these are indicated towards defence, fighting against those who fight you, it says nothing about going and fighting some one who is not fighting you.

Shakir 9:73] O Prophet&#33; strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
[Yusufali 9:73] O Prophet&#33; strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
[Pickthal 9:73] O Prophet&#33; Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites&#33; Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey&#39;s end.

Again all three recognized translations do not show what you show, but let me show you what this is in reference to:

[Shakir 9:74] They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.
[Yusufali 9:74] They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them&#33; If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
[Pickthal 9:74] They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

This is a reference to a group who plotted the assassination of the prophet, who here you can clearly see where left alone save the punishment of God.

[cpt_azad]

QUOTE (noname12 @ 29 December 2003 - 22:58)
QUOTE (kAb @ 30 December 2003 - 01:32)
"He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death shall be recompensed by Allah" (4:100).

"believers [shall], take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends" (5:51)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God&#39;s religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)



You are seriously a fool and if I thought it was worth while I would argue with you over every single sentence you just put, but its not worth it.
If you actually understand the Quran, you would have posted the entire section which would clearly show why it is mentioned to fight.
I will post them later when I have time, again I say if you do not understand it dont talk of it, you clearly dont understand Islam, so dont try to act like you do just because you can look up a few words of the quran by going on al-islam.org and typing the words "War" and "Death".


whats al-islam.org?

i take back what i said to kAB :P :

Originally posted by cpt_azad@29 December 2003 - 19:52
that shut me up.&nbsp; all of a sudden, i don&#39;t feel safe anymore. i formally take back the things i said, you do know what u type is true, good for you&#33;

[kAb]

Originally posted by cpt_azad@29 December 2003 - 23:38
that shut me up. all of a sudden, i don&#39;t feel safe anymore. i formally take back the things i said, you do know what u type is true, good for you&#33;
thats right, you cringe at my knowlegde&#33; :01:

[cpt_azad]

i am in your power oh great master :lol:

[p2p]

One thing u have to understand about most muslims (not those converting to Islam at later ages)
The muslims are very religious, deeply suspicious of other religions (not only the west but chinese, indian whatever) Most muslims were born to the religion Islam from birth and expected to follow it until death
The Christans, Chinese, Indians can sometimes take a dig and laugh at their Gods and religions but never the Muslims.
So u have someone like Bin-Mountain and others taking advantage of the anti-west feelings by saying the world is against Islam that made some muslims turn extreme.

U can&#39;t really blame the Israels for acting badly at times when they are surrounded by enemies on all sides... Better to strike first, be the bad guy then be hurt.

read this
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
from a Israel bias but seem to make sense
and I would like to hear the other side of the story

[noname12]

Originally posted by p2p@30 December 2003 - 09:25
One thing u have to understand about most muslims (not those converting to Islam at later ages)
The muslims are very religious, deeply suspicious of other religions (not only the west but chinese, indian whatever) Most muslims were born to the religion Islam from birth and expected to follow it until death
The Christans, Chinese, Indians can sometimes take a dig and laugh at their Gods and religions but never the Muslims.
So u have someone like Bin-Mountain and others taking advantage of the anti-west feelings by saying the world is against Islam that made some muslims turn extreme.

U can&#39;t really blame the Israels for acting badly at times when they are surrounded by enemies on all sides... Better to strike first, be the bad guy then be hurt.

read this
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
from a Israel bias but seem to make sense
and I would like to hear the other side of the story
Actually, you are incorrect, the Muslims promote openess with the other 2 major religions because they consider them to be the closest things to ally&#39;s they can get.
Suspicion actually always has been with the west and the rise of signs to show it follow&#39;s the way&#39;s of the prophesised anti-christ. Suspicioun has never been towards the other religions.

Secondly you justify the acts of the Israeli military for them being surrounded by enemies, and the same can be said for Palestine where they are easely out gunned and have no means of fighting a war whereas Israel has the backing of America and most of europe, state of the art military technology and US bases left right and centre.

There all in the same boat, rather then trying to excuse any of the sides, it would be better they just tried to sit down and talk, if we continue to just look at who&#39;s fault it is it will never end, if we try to just sit down and look for a peaceful way to end things then it can end in 6 months.

Both sides will have to make sacrifices, Israel must stop its settlements and hard handed ways, plus hand over the Olive farms back to the Palestinians and the Palestinians must agree to hand in any arms to the law, and share Al-Quds plus must recognize Israel as a country and respect its borders set out by the UN or any border agreed later.

We can all sit here and throw blame at each side from now until the end of time which will never solve a problem just as Arafat and Sharon have displayed, or we can try and vote in a peaceful government on both sides and talk.

Simple as that.

[<TROUBLE^MAKER>]

Those Muslims sure are open when it comes to Mecca alright, there&#39;s nothing like sharing your holy sights with the other religions of the world to visit and view. :rolleyes: