Todays ***video** Death Warning [Archive]

muchspl2

01-09-2004, 11:31 PM

Rules of Engagement

Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents

By Martha Raddatz

ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.

The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.

Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apac...deo_040109.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html)

http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/fa018bd1.mpeg

mooseman2070

01-10-2004, 12:20 AM

yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss

Proper Bo

01-10-2004, 12:21 AM

great, more death <_<

Lamsey

01-10-2004, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:

RGX

01-10-2004, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Lamsey+10 January 2004 - 00:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 10 January 2004 - 00:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink: [/b][/quote]
I very much agree :frusty:

Pete Waterman

01-10-2004, 12:26 AM

Lamsey

01-10-2004, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Pete Waterman+9 January 2004 - 23:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pete Waterman @ 9 January 2004 - 23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:23
<!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was under the impression americans didn't know sacrcasm. [/b][/quote]
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:

Pete Waterman

01-10-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Lamsey+10 January 2004 - 00:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 10 January 2004 - 00:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Pete Waterman@9 January 2004 - 23:26

Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:23
<!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was under the impression americans didn't know sacrcasm.
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink: [/b][/quote]
i was sure pop idol judges didn't know sarcasm

Lamsey

01-10-2004, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Pete Waterman+9 January 2004 - 23:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pete Waterman @ 9 January 2004 - 23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:27

Originally posted by Pete Waterman@9 January 2004 - 23:26

Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:23
<!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was under the impression americans didn't know sacrcasm.
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was sure pop idol judges didn't know sarcasm [/b][/quote]
Plea... never mind

Pete Waterman

01-10-2004, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Lamsey+10 January 2004 - 00:29--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 10 January 2004 - 00:29)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Pete Waterman@9 January 2004 - 23:28

Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:27

Originally posted by Pete Waterman@9 January 2004 - 23:26

Originally posted by Lamsey@10 January 2004 - 00:23
<!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was under the impression americans didn't know sacrcasm.
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:
i was sure pop idol judges didn't know sarcasm
Plea... never mind [/b][/quote]
yeah you stick to reading your book.

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 12:36 AM

its the harsh reality of war
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/apache1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/apache2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/apache3.jpg
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/apache4.jpg

this is what they're shooting

http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/50_m33.jpg

heres a better server (faster ;) )
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid9...35/fa018bd1.mpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid98/pd79d009c1d66271e7ff7f03616edf435/fa018bd1.mpg)

EDIT: I guess this needs to be moved to weekly world events

DWk

01-10-2004, 12:47 AM

figures..... had to be usa

RGX

01-10-2004, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by muchspl2@10 January 2004 - 00:36
its the harsh reality of war
[/IMG]
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/apache4.jpg

this is what they're shooting

http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/50_m33.jpg

heres a better server (faster ;) )
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid9...35/fa018bd1.mpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid98/pd79d009c1d66271e7ff7f03616edf435/fa018bd1.mpg)

EDIT: I guess this needs to be moved to weekly world events
:o

Didnt stand a chance

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 01:31 AM

no they didn't, but civilians don't play around with AAA guns

4th gen

01-10-2004, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by muchspl2@10 January 2004 - 00:31
no they didn't, but civilians don't play around with AAA guns
and charlie don't surf...he just kicks american ass ;)

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 02:26 AM

what?
http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2002/07/tivola/images/charlie.jpg

4th gen

01-10-2004, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by muchspl2@10 January 2004 - 01:26
what?
http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2002/07/tivola/images/charlie.jpg
have you seen apocalypse now?

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 02:39 AM

yes
but you'd rather have Americans killed :confused:

Cotton

01-10-2004, 02:42 AM

Man those choppers kick ass.

You cant hide once they c you.

You get in the car and drive ur dead u move ur dead...

Once they are after u ur fucked.

But they deserved it, they were planting rocket launchers.

..."Smoke 'em" :D

noname12

01-10-2004, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by muchspl2@10 January 2004 - 02:39
yes
but you'd rather have Americans killed :confused:
Would you rather me plaster video's of American soldiers being shot or a USA soldier having to fly back home without a face?

Think before you post. <_<

Cotton

01-10-2004, 02:49 AM

Wtf u talking about.

if you watch the movie the full one they show on TV, it shows the fucker planting a rocket launch in a dam field. which is near a base. thats y the choppers r patroling it so they can fix that fucked up countrie.

its got nothing to do with people killing people for fun like all the stupid mentally fucked up middle easterners.

Man if i ran a countire like russia i would just nuke thos shit countires.

noname12

01-10-2004, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Cotton@10 January 2004 - 02:49
Wtf u talking about.

if you watch the movie the full one they show on TV, it shows the fucker planting a rocket launch in a dam field. which is near a base. thats y the choppers r patroling it so they can fix that fucked up countrie.

its got nothing to do with people killing people for fun like all the stupid mentally fucked up middle easterners.

Man if i own a countire like russia i would just nuke thos shit countires.
Yeah, and the Iraqi who goes and shows the videos of US soldiers getting killed would say
"See this dog, he was trying to bomb our land, then we got him. YEAH!"

Meh, same picture, different leaf, doesnt make it right to show some one being killed then cheering about it.

Mentally what now?

Your an idiot and to argue with you would be the same as talking to a dogs ass.

asmithz

01-10-2004, 02:54 AM

The first guy who got shot is a dumass. He tried walking off like nothing was happening and he woulden't get shot if he walk right into the line of fire. :lol:

@noname12 no one cares about tarrorist. <_< It Tarrorist NOT iraq

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 02:54
The first guy who got shot is a dumass. He tried walking off like nothing was happening and he woulden't get shot if he walk right into the line of fire. :lol:

@noname12 no one cares about tarrorist. <_< It Tarrorist NOT iraq
@Agentsmith, Yeah so if I label the brave soldiers as terrorists I can start cheering about them getting killed also?

A person is a person and that person got killed I dont find that worthy of celebration and jokes.

DWk

01-10-2004, 03:04 AM

correcto....

asmithz

01-10-2004, 03:10 AM

Were not hording guns and plan attacks on OUR OWN People. I don't think that you really listen to what happens. Almost every day those terrorist bomb there own people. Then people like you get made when we take the tarrorist out. Just because they so happen to be from Iraq. We go after the bad people, not the people of iraq.

Unlike when the terrorist kills, were not proud that we kill terrorist, but we have to or they'll kill more iraqian people. Would you rather us get rid of the terrorist or the terroist kill everyone in iraq? ;)

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 03:10
Were not hording guns and plan attacks on OUR OWN People. I don't think that you really listen to what happens. Almost every day those terrorist bomb there own people. Then people like you get made when we take the tarrorist out. Just because they so happen to be from Iraq. We go after the bad people, not the people of iraq.

Unlike when the terrorist kill, were not proud that we kill terrorist, but we have to or they'll kill more iraqian people. Would you rather us get rid of the terrorist or the terroist kill everyone in iraq? ;)
Yeah and if it was an American gun ship bombing those people and a video was made of it, the same people would probably be on here cheering and laughing about it.

Like I said, to you he maybe a terrorist, to me I see a person getting killed and I do not find it in good taste to be laughing about it.

If words is all it takes to be as heartless and pathetic as that then like I said before, I will just change my views a little, label the Americans as terrorists and start putting up little mini vid's of American Troops having RPG's firing at them and limbs flying everywhere. Maybe some people in here would find that entertaining, no?

To put it in a way you understand, wether it was a right action or wrong action, in this case it seems to be correct action taken, it does not make it moraly correct to be laughing and joking at the fact that a person has just been killed. I personally find that disgusting.

DWk

01-10-2004, 03:17 AM

oh and bringing that patronizing bush-type attitude wont help this topic....

4th gen

01-10-2004, 03:19 AM

anyone got a video of american soldiers being shot?

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by 4th gen@10 January 2004 - 03:19
anyone got a video of american soldiers being shot?
There all over the place.... Well in certain countries that is.

asmithz

01-10-2004, 03:24 AM

You know how many times we see the terrorist happy about what they do.

Look at it this way. If some one takes several people hostage (women and children). He has a gun to a ladys head and is about to shoot. A sniper takes him out without harming the lady. Is the sniper a hero? Yes he took the bad guy out.

When the terrorist kills women and childern and americans take the terrorist out. Were the enemy. I don't think so.

Anywayz i have to go.

asmithz

01-10-2004, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by DWk@9 January 2004 - 19:17
oh and bringing that patronizing bush-type attitude wont help this topic....
I think bush is a dumbass that should have never gotten elacted. Tho we had really no better choice. :(

Bush or Gore come on those are bad choices.

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 03:26 AM

never happens :o

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 03:24
You know how many times we see the terrorist happy about what they do.

Look at it this way. If some one takes several people hostage (women and children). He has a gun to a ladys head and is about to shoot. A sniper takes him out without harming the lady. Is the sniper a hero? Yes he took the bad guy out.

When the terrorist kills women and childern and americans take the terrorist out. Were the enemy. I don't think so.

Anywayz i have to go.
Yeah, I am not questioning the soldier who shot him, if he saw a weapon about to be used against him or civilians be my guest and shoot, I am argueing over the fact people are laughing about the person getting killed and giving room to that racist moron earlier to make dumb ass comments about middle easterners.

That soldier is doing what he has to do, what he has been trained to do and what he has been paid to do... but no one is forcing you or paying you to laugh at the death of others.

4th gen

01-10-2004, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 02:24
You know how many times we see the terrorist happy about what they do.

Look at it this way. If some one takes several people hostage (women and children). He has a gun to a ladys head and is about to shoot. A sniper takes him out without harming the lady. Is the sniper a hero? Yes he took the bad guy out.

When the terrorist kills women and childern and americans take the terrorist out. Were the enemy. I don't think so.

Anywayz i have to go.
so the entire iraqi army are terrorists?
is that what you're saying?

if it is, i can't believe you'd say such an incredibly stupid thing

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 03:32 AM

makes me want to join

Pitbul

01-10-2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by noname12+9 January 2004 - 20:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (noname12 @ 9 January 2004 - 20:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 03:10
Were not hording guns and plan attacks on OUR OWN People. I don't think that you really listen to what happens. Almost every day those terrorist bomb there own people. Then people like you get made when we take the tarrorist out. Just because they so happen to be from Iraq. We go after the bad people, not the people of iraq.

Unlike when the terrorist kill, were not proud that we kill terrorist, but we have to or they'll kill more iraqian people. Would you rather us get rid of the terrorist or the terroist kill everyone in iraq? ;)
Yeah and if it was an American gun ship bombing those people and a video was made of it, the same people would probably be on here cheering and laughing about it.

Like I said, to you he maybe a terrorist, to me I see a person getting killed and I do not find it in good taste to be laughing about it.

If words is all it takes to be as heartless and pathetic as that then like I said before, I will just change my views a little, label the Americans as terrorists and start putting up little mini vid's of American Troops having RPG's firing at them and limbs flying everywhere. Maybe some people in here would find that entertaining, no?

To put it in a way you understand, wether it was a right action or wrong action, in this case it seems to be correct action taken, it does not make it moraly correct to be laughing and joking at the fact that a person has just been killed. I personally find that disgusting. [/b][/quote]
who said anyone was laughing? are you trying to find an excuse to this by pretending to think the people were laughing? can i ask who watch this and laughed? i doubt no one besides Moose but then again you think all americans are like that, so if everyone precieved that kind by the stereotype i guess everybody would think down on that person, OMG im American i hate other countries and believe that war is good and killing Iraqi's is so cool, their are you happy that someone acts the way you precieve? does it justify that you act moronic and are so anti-american, that these people you degrate to the lower life were the few people who gave shit enough to fight the germans from eleminating the Jews cause we knew it was morally wrong. the same Americans who are oh so evil that read about the concentration camps in school, oh yes its true we dont just read about America, we do cover Germany Russia Japan and many others. i guess we should have just sat back watch the Germans raid towns and burn german women and children cause in the end, Jews really wont give a shit decades later. American army is not killing civilians, they are killing the Iraqi army whose fighting back, we're liberating them what would we gain from destroying iraq? if Iraq would up a stop pressuring us and if the suddam supports would stop and give in we'd finish, clean up, put someone in charge and leave. im not saying killing people is right, but what obvious things i have picked up about war is if you and your enemy have weapons and are face to face you better kill him or hes gonna kill you, so wake your pansy ass up and realize thats the real world and thats war you bitching and complaining on the internet like some tough guy who gives a shit aint changing anything.

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by 4th gen+10 January 2004 - 03:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen @ 10 January 2004 - 03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agent Smith@10 January 2004 - 02:24
You know how many times we see the terrorist happy about what they do.

Look at it this way. If some one takes several people hostage (women and children). He has a gun to a ladys head and is about to shoot. A sniper takes him out without harming the lady. Is the sniper a hero? Yes he took the bad guy out.

When the terrorist kills women and childern and americans take the terrorist out. Were the enemy. I don't think so.

Anywayz i have to go.
so the entire iraqi army are terrorists?
is that what you're saying?

if it is, i can't believe you'd say such an incredibly stupid thing [/b][/quote]
Funny thing is about the Iraqi army during the war is that most of the casualties where Shi'ite's forced to fight or have there families killed while the true supporters such as the sunnites and the republican gaurd ran away, so basically most of the fighters where caught between either getting killed by American troops or getting your self and family killed by the Iraqi government...

Why do you think they all surrendered?

As for the current "Terrorists" that are fighting, most of them are kids no older then me being fed propaganda about the Soldiers and the stories of crimes commited by them and videos like this does'nt help the matter it basically ceals the deal, the original saddam supportes hand them weapons and then stuff like this happens so then we can all sit around and laugh at it.

noname12

01-10-2004, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by Pitbul@10 January 2004 - 03:33

Not going to read the whole thing, as to the laughing remark, it was made after that fool who made the racist remark made his first post.

Maybe one person, but worthy of such a response from me.

TARPD

01-10-2004, 04:07 AM

just a question for you all to ask yourselves

is there really that much difference between american collateral damage and iraqi terrorism, apart from accuracy ;)

jetje

01-10-2004, 04:11 AM

One of the problems is to find out what a terrorist is?
Some say terrorist others may call him a freedom fighter ;)
That's what makes a lot of debates very difficult if not impossible :(

A simple point was made by noname12, and i totally agree on that, every life taken is one to many, don't matter which side :(

**reopened and moved to the proper place, keep it decent. Killed people is not for fun, these ain't just movies ;) **

TARPD

01-10-2004, 03:58 PM

i always thought the definition of terrorism is attacks aimed directly a civilians. the majority of the iraqi "terrorist" attacks are aimed at the military. the guy in that video is not a terrorist

leftism

01-10-2004, 04:14 PM

muchspl2.. why did you post this video? Whats the point your trying to make?

mooseman2070

01-10-2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey+9 January 2004 - 20:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 9 January 2004 - 20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink: [/b][/quote]
i thought the !!!!11 would have given it away, so yeah it was sarcasm

asmithz

01-10-2004, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by t3h1337n355@10 January 2004 - 07:58
i always thought the definition of terrorism is attacks aimed directly a civilians. the majority of the iraqi "terrorist" attacks are aimed at the military. the guy in that video is not a terrorist
Umm if you see the full clip, those people (the terrorist) were loading a missle and about to shoot down the helicopter. ;)

leftism

01-10-2004, 09:08 PM

Umm if you see the full clip, those people (the terrorist) were loading a missle and about to shoot down the helicopter

Is is a military helicopter (warfare) or a civilian helicopter (terrorism)?

I'm not going to sign up to yahoo just to watch people being killed. <_<

asmithz

01-10-2004, 09:17 PM

military helicopter

Ok if there the terrorist (the people who got shot) were pointing a missle at the helicopter. Now is the helicopter suppose to just sit there and get shot (for you , you support that idea and think its cool for some reason). They wern't doing anything to those people. Those people saw the US helicopter and tried to blow it down. Just because it was flying by. How can you say those people are freedom fighters when at first, the US wasen't doing anything but flying by. Come on now <_<

leftism

01-10-2004, 09:26 PM

Ok if there the terrorist (the people who got shot) were pointing a missle at the helicopter. Now is the helicopter suppose to just sit there and get shot (for you , you support that idea and think its cool for some reason).

No it has every right to fight back, and no I dont think it would be "cool". :rolleyes:

They wern't doing anything to those people. Those people saw the US helicopter and tried to blow it down. Just because it was flying by. How can you say those people are freedom fighters when at first, the US wasen't doing anything but flying by. Come on now 

I'm not saying their freedom fighters the only point I'm making is that they arent terrorists just because they're attacking a military target.

If someone invaded your country you'd fight wouldnt you? Would that make you a terrorist?

One more quick point. Im not impressed with this thread at all. Theres been no points made at all. Its only purpose is so people can have a good laugh at other people being killed. imho people who watch snuff movies are almost as bad as pedos.

hobbes

01-10-2004, 09:31 PM

He posted another link in which you don't have to join anything, very fast server.

I watched it because I got the gist that soldiers were killing Iraqi's and laughing, based on early posts.

It basically shows 3 Iraqi soldiers getting shot, it is unclear from the video given, what they were doing.

For those who don't want to watch it, and I recommend you don't, the Americans involved are not laughing or celebrating. It is actually an emotionless and perfuctory clip.

"Move forward (of the truck) and hit him".
Firing
"Roger".

I took no joy in the contents rather I was disturbed by it. It simply shows that war is a sad situation. I too wonder what "good" could come from linking this.

asmithz

01-10-2004, 09:34 PM

No one has been laughing about this. ;) Don't know what your talking about.

I'm not saying their freedom fighters the only point I'm making is that they arent terrorists just because they're attacking a military target.

They were Al-qaida attacking a milatary plane for no reason. The helicopter was just flying by it wasen't invading. Last time i check the iraqian people were happy that we are taking car of the Al-qaida terrorist.

If someone invaded your country you'd fight wouldnt you? Would that make you a terrorist?

Were trying to keep the iraqian people safe, and let them bring back there goverment without the Al-qaida terriost stopping them. The iraq goverment is happy that were helping them. It wasen't a civillian that tried to take down the helicopter.

hobbes

01-10-2004, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by noname12@10 January 2004 - 03:51

Meh, same picture, different leaf, doesnt make it right to show some one being killed then cheering about it.

As, I said, I hadn't watched the video and this comment made me wonder about the content.

Why watch a video of people getting shot, kind of sick, really.

asmithz

01-10-2004, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by hobbes+10 January 2004 - 13:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 10 January 2004 - 13:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-noname12@10 January 2004 - 03:51

Meh, same picture, different leaf, doesnt make it right to show some one being killed then cheering about it.

As, I said, I hadn't watched the video and this comment made me wonder about the content.

Why watch a video of people getting shot, kind of sick, really. [/b][/quote]
Yeah it is kinda sick ;) I doidn't enjoy it. They weren't laughing about it, i thoght it was very serious.

People just don't get that theose people were going to shoot down the helicopter.

muchspl2

01-10-2004, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by leftism@10 January 2004 - 16:08

Umm if you see the full clip, those people (the terrorist) were loading a missle and about to shoot down the helicopter

Is is a military helicopter (warfare) or a civilian helicopter (terrorism)?

I'm not going to sign up to yahoo just to watch people being killed. <_<
http://members.cox.net/ot_web_space/fa018bd1.mpeg
you can try this, I upped it to another place
it was taken down by all the hits, probably all the cross linking

Smith

01-10-2004, 10:02 PM

stupid fuckin americans, how many ppl must die for their so called "cause"

those iraqis wernt even firing at the helo.

isnt there some rule agaainst that? an illegal killing mabye?

3RA1N1AC

01-10-2004, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Pitbul@9 January 2004 - 19:33
who said anyone was laughing? are you trying to find an excuse to this by pretending to think the people were laughing? can i ask who watch this and laughed? i doubt no one besides Moose but then again you think all americans are like that, so if everyone precieved that kind by the stereotype i guess everybody would think down on that person, OMG im American i hate other countries and believe that war is good and killing Iraqi's is so cool, their are you happy that someone acts the way you precieve? does it justify that you act moronic and are so anti-american, that these people you degrate to the lower life were the few people who gave shit enough to fight the germans from eleminating the Jews cause we knew it was morally wrong.
*deep breath* WAR IS NOT CHARITY. america did not enter ww2 to save jews, did not invade vietnam to save the vietnamese, and did not invade iraq to save iraqis. also, the union did not invade the confederate south to save the slaves. war is about politics, business, land, influence-- no gov't owned by rich people is going to throw away truckloads of cash to fight a war on behalf of dirty, barefoot peasants... ever.

i don't think it's terribly far-fetched to believe that there are avid collectors of war videos who just like seeing people get blowed up real good 'cause "wow cool, violence rocks." or that there are plenty of bucktoothed super-patriot types out there who watch videos of american soldiers get killed, going "look at what those damn iraqis did to our boys, that pisses me off so much" and then the same guys watch videos of iraqis getting killed and they go "hahahah, look at those towelheads run, they are so stupid to think they can win a war against us, lol, they are so stupid." people really do think like that. and a lot of them really do drive pickup trucks and listen to toby keith. hop on just about political message board that discusses israel-- eventually an israeli will show up to curse all of the arabs to hell when israelis get killed, then laugh at how stupid and impotent the arabs are when the israelis manage to kill some of them. people really do think like that, even though i'd say it barely qualifies as "thinking."

edit: yeah i know, bucktoothed super-patriots with their toby keith cds... i drew a totally unfair and mean-spirited caricature, there. but on the other hand, if people really are collecting all these videos and circulating them on kazaa and bittorrent under screen names like "Proud2BeATaxPayinAmerkun," there prolly is a good chance that they are bucktoothed super-patriots with toby keith cds.

leftism

01-10-2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by 3RAINIAC
people really do think like that. and a lot of them really do drive pickup trucks and listen to toby keith.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, you made some excellent serious points in that post but I couldnt help but laugh at the picture you painted with that sentence!

edit: I know its only a minority of Americans who are like that, just in case anyone gets offended :)

Smith

01-10-2004, 10:13 PM

so they did it for them selfs? and didnt give a fuck about anyone else?

greed anyone?

asmithz

01-10-2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+10 January 2004 - 14:03--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC @ 10 January 2004 - 14:03)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Pitbul@9 January 2004 - 19:33
who said anyone was laughing? are you trying to find an excuse to this by pretending to think the people were laughing? can i ask who watch this and laughed? i doubt no one besides Moose but then again you think all americans are like that, so if everyone precieved that kind by the stereotype i guess everybody would think down on that person, OMG im American i hate other countries and believe that war is good and killing Iraqi's is so cool, their are you happy that someone acts the way you precieve? does it justify that you act moronic and are so anti-american, that these people you degrate to the lower life were the few people who gave shit enough to fight the germans from eleminating the Jews cause we knew it was morally wrong.
*deep breath* WAR IS NOT CHARITY. america did not enter ww2 to save jews, did not invade vietnam to save the vietnamese, and did not invade iraq to save iraqis. also, the union did not invade the confederate south to save the slaves. war is about politics, business, land, influence-- no gov't owned by rich people is going to throw away truckloads of cash to fight a war on behalf of dirty, barefoot peasants... ever.

i don't think it's terribly far-fetched to believe that there are avid collectors of war videos who just like seeing people get blowed up real good 'cause "wow cool, violence rocks." or that there are plenty of bucktoothed super-patriot types out there who watch videos of american soldiers get killed, going "look at what those damn iraqis did to our boys, that pisses me off so much" and then the same guys watch videos of iraqis getting killed and they go "hahahah, look at those towelheads run, they are so stupid to think they can win a war against us, lol, they are so stupid." people really do think like that. and a lot of them really do drive pickup trucks and listen to toby keith. hop on just about political message board that discusses israel-- eventually an israeli will show up to curse all of the arabs to hell when israelis get killed, then laugh at how stupid and impotent the arabs are when the israelis manage to kill some of them. people really do think like that, even though i'd say it barely qualifies as "thinking."

edit: yeah i know, bucktoothed super-patriots with their toby keith cds... i drew a totally unfair and mean-spirited caricature, there. but on the other hand, if people really are collecting all these videos and circulating them on kazaa and bittorrent under screen names like "Proud2BeATaxPayinAmerkun," there prolly is a good chance that they are bucktoothed super-patriots with toby keith cds. [/b][/quote]
Dude that is hella rude to call them dirty, barefoot peasants. Just because you don't listen to what happens, doesn't mean you need to pass judgement on iraq. You shouldn't just come here to insult, most people are serious about this situation. Get an education and some morals, and then talk about this.

US can do two things at once. Take care of terroist and rebuilding iraq.

hobbes

01-10-2004, 10:24 PM

Brainiac,

You take a valid point (it is a sickness to enjoy this type of killing) and ruin it with your own agenda. Why not admit that people who take pleasure from war footage exist all around the world.

This is nothing unique to the US. Normal Americans take no pleasure in this type of video, as I already posted.

Why undermine yourself with emotion driven cheapshots and propagate insulting sterotypes.

Clearly you would rather vent your issues than discuss your offense logically.

hobbes

01-10-2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by TheCanuk@10 January 2004 - 23:02
stupid fuckin americans, how many ppl must die for their so called "cause"

those iraqis wernt even firing at the helo.

isnt there some rule agaainst that? an illegal killing mabye?
Hey there Sparky, gather up your crayons and head back to the Lounge. The soldiers killed were planning to fire a rocket at the helicopter. Should they have waited until the rocket launched before firing back?

It was a no win situation, kill or be killed.

3RA1N1AC

01-10-2004, 10:54 PM

i don't like the pretense of objectivity or lack of bias. i'm biased, and who isn't? and, well, if i were to take up the complete, formal rules of debate just to shoot the breeze about current events on the k-lite forum, i'd prolly just start to find it too depressingly serious to participate anymore. the plain facts discussed in most World News & Events threads aren't exactly cheerful.

Why not admit that people who take pleasure from war footage exist all around the world.

This is nothing unique to the US. Normal Americans take no pleasure in this type of video, as I already posted.

i don't object to that at all. there surely is a fringe that simply thrills at the idea of viewing snuff videos-- the specific (and seemingly more widespread, acceptable) sickness i was getting at is the sickness of the citizen of a powerful country in times of war, who uses such videos as a sort of mind-altering substance in order to reinforce their so-called patriotism. i'm implying a difference from the fetishism of a snuff fan, because there's a self-torture element involved in inflicting upon oneself videos of one's own countrymen being killed by the enemy. it's sort of like snuff propaganda-- "snuffaganda," if you will.

and i specify the citizen of a "powerful" country as one suffering from a sickness because it's completely unnecessary-- a more powerful country already committed to war is most likely going to win, whether or not propaganda is involved. the underdog draws (relatively) much more strength from having its people obsess over propaganda imagery-- it's not completely pointless, as opposed to a giant getting worked up over midget war footage after he's already stepped on the midget.

by my own admission, i took a cheap shot at a stereotypical figure. that can't be taken completely in earnest. but i also don't think it's too far afield from the truth, that the flesh 'n' blood embodiments of the stupidest and ugliest stereotypes come out of the woodwork and climb to the top of the pile in times like these... and suddenly the opinions of such people are given much more weight than they would in peaceful times.

hobbes

01-10-2004, 11:14 PM

We all have biases, but certainly we can be aware of them.

For instance:

How many times has a referee given a player a penalty on your team and you screamed "unfair". How many times have you felt that "the Refs" were against your team. Funny thing is that fans of the other team, watching the same game felt that the referees were against them, too.

We all recognize that we are deluding ourselves because we are pulling so passionately for our home teams.

Having a bias does not mean you can't recognize it. When bias shows, it totally undermines the credibility of the author. So why ruin a valid point?

100%

01-10-2004, 11:37 PM

This was not as bad as the movie with the americans shooting the wounded iraqi over the wall.
This one was purelly formal - the last one guys just playing around.
What i find interesting with these Real war scenes-is that ive never seen such close range view of what actually happens(news normally censores it)-what is most interesting is hearing the comments-you get involved with the actual soldier.
Very weird

asmithz

01-10-2004, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Zedaxax@10 January 2004 - 15:37
This was not as bad as the movie with the americans shooting the wounded iraqi over the wall.
This one was purelly formal - the last one guys just playing around.
What i find interesting with these Real war scenes-is that ive never seen such close range view of what actually happens(news normally censores it)-what is most interesting is hearing the comments-you get involved with the actual soldier.
Very weird
Yeah it does seem played out ;)

muchspl2

01-11-2004, 01:08 AM

More info about the vid:

------------------

Rules of Engagement

Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents

By Martha Raddatz

ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.

The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.

Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apac...deo_040109.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html)

hobbes

01-11-2004, 04:49 AM

Still, not something you should enjoy watching.

Those Iraqi's killed are still somebodies Daddy, or at least, some Mother's son.

noname12

01-12-2004, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by hobbes+10 January 2004 - 21:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 10 January 2004 - 21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-noname12@10 January 2004 - 03:51

Meh, same picture, different leaf, doesnt make it right to show some one being killed then cheering about it.

As, I said, I hadn't watched the video and this comment made me wonder about the content.

Why watch a video of people getting shot, kind of sick, really. [/b][/quote]
Lets clear something up about that, I didnt watch the video, and to me it wouldnt have been something new to hear an American Soldier cheer after he shot some one, seen it on CNN enough times <_<

I was talking about one paticular member who deserved such a response. Read the whole thing <_<

echidna

01-21-2004, 04:06 PM

christ i'm glad that it is so statistically unlikely that many [if any] of the moronic american writters represented here actually vote. (and i really hope that all the sensible writters do vote often)

you inhumanity makes me sick to the stomach

one of you even tryed to claim that US forces don't/haven't attacked and killed civillians in iraq --- which is patent bull shit
:o
wow impressive
the worlds only super-power can kill at will in what is basically a 'developing nation' which has been besieged for 12 years

but then again you choose presidents who sign off on executing mentally retarded prisoners

god i wish you'd have kept chewing tabacy and farming hogs in the hills

yeah, and keep beleiving that your technologies will make you invincible
[maybe that's why people keep refering to the events of 9/11 as a 'bombing' "they bombed us!" it's far more scarey that all of that hot metal was made by boeing in the US of A, kinda different to the way george snr made osama]
:angry: :ph34r: :angry: :ph34r: :angry: :ph34r: :angry: :ph34r: :angry: :ph34r:
now that my pointless rage is vented why don't you kids go play on the highway, or maybe go dry your hair in the bath tub

CaptainSilver

01-23-2004, 07:20 AM

Well... to correct some previous posts:

that what they were shooting from:

M230 30mm automatic cannon

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/Csa/apM230.jpg

installed on Apache Helicopter:

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/ah64gun5.jpg

... and here is the ammunition:
- M789 (HEDP) High Explosive Dual Purpose
- M799 (HEI) High Explosive Incendiary
- M788 (TP) Target Practice

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/cannons/m230/naboje.jpg

FULL VIDEO:

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi

CaptainSilver

01-23-2004, 07:28 AM

LW 30mm Ammunition (http://www.atk.com/productsPrecision/descriptions/products/medium-cal-ammo/lw30mm.htm)

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN

01-23-2004, 07:47 AM

;) Yep.And People ask why the Guys killed him when they said he was wounded.

Pitbul

01-24-2004, 07:41 PM

when ur wounded by a 30MM's...well.. theirs not much saving to do especially if it hit anywhere in the upper legs, chest, or especially head area.s and if they hit in the legs you'd bleed to death from missing a limb before you got help. they saved him alot of pain.

j2k4

01-24-2004, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Lamsey+9 January 2004 - 20:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey @ 9 January 2004 - 20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-mooseman2070@9 January 2004 - 23:20
yes awesome! more evidence that we are treating iraqis like shit! YESSSSSS!!!!!11
I love america man, we show them cameljockey towelheads whos boss
Please, God, let that have been sarcasm :blink:[/b][/quote]

Liam-

Your reference to a Deity is heartening. ;)

I applaud your sentiment, also.

echidna

01-25-2004, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Pitbul@25 January 2004 - 06:41
when ur wounded by a 30MM's...well.. theirs not much saving to do especially if it hit anywhere in the upper legs, chest, or especially head area.s and if they hit in the legs you'd bleed to death from missing a limb before you got help. they saved him alot of pain.
Uh huh!

I expect that you would hope that US soldiers wounded in action would be treated as POWs,
provided whatever available medical attention as soon as possible by any US military opponent.

Yet the USA here is advertising/propagandising and now extolling 'putting down' it's 'enemies' like unwanted dogs. (or kidnapping them incommunicado for as long as the US deems fit)

This is what the national-socialists ended up building factories for.

America needs to look long & hard in the mirror now more than ever.
President Shrub continues to mouth the lie which took you to war,
despite the advisors and investigators 'coming out' and telling us directly that the notorious weapons aren't there.

What are you doing?
Are you thinking with emotion?
Do you really think that President Shrub is benefitting America?

From down here he looks to be catalysing ruin for most of you.
And expressions like this make the terrible possibility, that many of you may be potentially willing despots, disturbingly possible.