Usa And It's Influence.

[hobbes]

I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.

When an uncontested super power appears upon the Earth you will know it by this sign, the impotent will join in a confederacy against it.

Really, it is simple human psychology. All men/nations want autonomy over their lives, their destiny. When this is removed, it causes unrest, anger, and resentment.

Like all the low level workers who gather in the break room talking about how stupid their boss is, slapping each other on the back and laughing. They discredit any achievements of the boss as a ruse to mask their impotence. They demean the boss and his integrity. They wouldn't be caught dead being such an ass kissing low life as their boss who was obviously pandered to all his live.

The Boss acts without caring about others. Yeah, like any country, ever, has passed up something to strengthen itself because it wouldn't be "nice". Humans are humans.

So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability

Lets say another hypothetical superpower was overthrowing governments and supporting coups etc etc.

Would you defend their right to do so? US citizens dont have to support these actions but many do. Either that or they cast them aside as irrelevancies that have no bearing on the current global situation. I've always held the belief that if you want to fix a problem you have to understand what caused it in the first place. In my experience most Americans are not prepared to do this when it comes to their Governments foreign policy.

I think you'll find its often frustration at this attitude that drives, what you perceive, as USA bashing. I think the rest of us just cant understand why your governments wrongdoings are such a sore point with many of you. We'll happily criticise our own Governments all day long should the need arise, and if jonny foreigner wants to join in with fair criticism we dont seem to take it to heart as severely as many Americans do. :)

I could bring up loads of other issues relating to this subject but its getting late, and I can see it getting extremely hot in here within 10 minutes so I think I'll make a quick exit :)

[hobbes]

I don't even support our right to do so, just talking about a political reality which would be done by any country which could.

I want to dissect out what is unique to American policies over those of the rest of the world.

My conclusion: nothing but the ability to achieve them.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want to dissect out what is unique to American policies over those of the rest of the world.

My conclusion: nothing but the ability to achieve them[/b]

And if another country had the ability to achieve them we would be criticising them too. I dont see whats so unfair about it to be honest.

If it were my country instead of yours I wouldnt be at all bothered by the criticism, I&#39;d probably feel more comfortable joining in too because then I couldnt be accused of being anti-myowncountry :)

edit:

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
I don&#39;t even support our right to do so[/quote]

But many of your fellow countrymen do. I genuinely dont think you&#39;d get this with other countries. We dont seem to take criticism of our Gvts as personally as many American citizens do.

[vidcc]

ok , but if you look at what you said (is there an echo in here) you just insulted every other country apart from the usa..impotant...which is just the kind of attitude that makes everyone bash the usa at any given chance.we need the rest of the world and just because we have more WMD than anyone else doesn&#39;t make us better.
we constantly tell the world we are better than them and that we have power, well with power comes responsibility and if we are perceived as abusing that power then we will draw criticism. Unfortunately some of the criticism comes in the form badly thought out personal attacks. Many people lump all americans into one heap in their attacks just as many americans lump all the middle eastern peoples as being bad
i&#39;m kind of glad that the rest of the world is vocal because it acts like a conscience so we don&#39;t get too above ourselves and start thinking we are God.
i fully understand how you feel, this board is mostly western Europeans where americans although considered allies are also perceived as being arrogant bullies.
in most cases the attacks aren&#39;t anything personally directed at you even though it seems like it is. That said some of the Americans on the board haven&#39;t helped our cause and it all ends up with a shooting match off topic...pity really because some of the topics are worthy of proper debate.
no doubt this one will draw a lot of insults...you used one of my post as an example but i think this one will outdo mine but a long way lol

[hobbes]

I only take offense when people pretend that what is going on is uniquely American, the specious moral high ground.

You know that I am pretty open in my expression of my opinions as my posts on invading Iraq demonstrate.

Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes
Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

Speaking from experience a sizeable proportion of your fellow Americans are simply unable or unwilling to make that distinction.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism+11 January 2004 - 06:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 11 January 2004 - 06:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Criticism about cruel and unique actions are well appreciated, criticism based on jealously and impotence are pathetic.

Speaking from experience a sizeable proportion of your fellow Americans are simply unable or unwilling to make that distinction.[/b][/quote]
As are most citizens of any country. Again I go back to what is unique about Americans.

But, more seriously. I can fully appreciate how morons can irritate the world with their idiotic gung - ho mentality.

As an individual, I don&#39;t know how to stop this barrage of idiocy, but I hate being placed in the same category as these dolts.

People are people, and unfortunately, all countries have their share of inflammatory idiots.

[vidcc]

Hobbes

but without being in the mind of the poster can you say how the reason for the critcism is motivated ?
again i do get entirely your point...many people don&#39;t give justification for the critic but instead just throw insults.
i have heard the arguement that the usa is attacked out of jealousy many times..trust me we are not looked upon with envy as we might think we are and many times, to use your analogy, it&#39;s not that we are resented because we are the boss but because we think we are and people are rightly telling us we are not. the world is much more powerful than the usa on its own.
and as for impotence...well didn&#39;t GW just take us to war to stop a country doing just what the usa wants to do...have power?...so with our guns and ammunition we are just as guilty of bashing oursleves.

gosh you started a good topic here..i doubt it will be able to maintain intelligent debate but it cetainly deserves it from whatever side of the fence one sits

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes
As are most citizens of any country. Again I go back to what is unique about Americans.


I think this is where we disagree. I dont know why this is the case but you really do seem to be unique in as much that you guys seem to take huge offence at any criticism of your Gvt. I mean fair criticism here too.

Sometimes it seems like the Gvt and the people are synonomous in the USA.

Im not talking about the gung-ho types you mentioned either. I mean decent normal people who seeem to have an uncharacteristically violent reaction to any criticism of US foreign policy.

To us, on the other side of the pond, this just seems really bizarre. We genuinely dont understand it :)

As an example I think its a commonly held view in Europe that the foreign policy of the US has been a major contributing factor to 9/11. Of course we dont think your citizens deserved that but we dont see why its offensive to link your Gvts actions to it.

I have in the past tried to explain this to various Americans but you just cant seem to seperate the citizens from the government and, inevitably, huge offence is taken.

I hope I&#39;ve explained that reasonably coherently but you have to understand I&#39;m really tired.

PS

Was there any need for you to start a really interesting thread in the early hours of the morning? :)

[vidcc]

Originally posted by leftism@11 January 2004 - 06:03

Was there any need for you to start a really interesting thread in the early hours of the morning? :)
erm it&#39;s evening here... :lol: :lol: don&#39;t make us have to explain the rotation of the earth and time differences..you must realise we are in America and therefore behind you (did i say the usa was behind the times and living in the past ??? :unsure: :"> ) :lol: :lol:

[hobbes]

Have I shown huge offense, I just called "bullshit"

People criticise my government for things their government would do, if they could.

[vidcc]

hey hobbes are you trying to see what the board would look like with your name on the end of each topic :lol: :lol: :lol:

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Have I shown huge offense, I just called "bullshit"
[/b]

Bullshit? So does that mean you dont think US foriegn policy has anything to do with 9/11?

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
People criticise my government for things their government would do, if they could. [/quote]

So what? They would criticise their own government too if they did the same stuff. Theres nothing hypocritical or inconsistent about it.

Its almost as if your saying that because our Gvts would probably be just as bad if they had the power, we shouldnt criticise yours.

I dont see the logic behind that, the citizens arent the government.

[hobbes]

The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.

This thread has nothing to do with 9/11, nobody with a brain would argue that our foreign policies would not create enemies.

I am commenting on the fact that the people who tend to blast the US are more interested in their impotence than a unique agenda or quality of American politics.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This thread has nothing to do with 9/11, nobody with a brain would argue that our foreign policies would not create enemies[/b]

9/11 was an example I used to illustrate a point about what happens when you discuss such matters with some Americans. You didnt clarify what your "bullshit" comment was aimed at so I had to ask. What was it aimed at btw?


Originally posted by hobbes@
I am commenting on the fact that the people who tend to blast the US are more interested in their impotence than a unique agenda or quality of American politics.

I disagree, I think that many people who criticise you actually care about what goes on in the world. Its easy to focus on the fools in the same way that I could easily focus on the gung-ho Americans who like to watch videos of Iraqis beinng killed. But that doesnt show the situation in a balanced light and would be quite unfair.

I&#39;ve noticed you&#39;ve used the word impotent many times in this thread. I honestly think your more concerned with your Gvts power than those who criticise you are.

Its not the major motivation behind the criticism, its what your Gvt does with the power which motivates it.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small. [/quote]

If the whole purpose of this thread is to focus purely on the obnoxious 13 year olds you get on all forums I&#39;m a little disappointed. We dont have a monoploy on them any more than you do :)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism@11 January 2004 - 08:07

I disagree, I think that many people who criticise you actually care about what goes on in the world.

Good point, but I rarely take offense when such criticism is conveyed in a contructive manner.&nbsp; These critical posts are often embedded with cheap shots and written in an inflammatory manner.&nbsp; Sometimes how you say something is as important as what you say. When I read a post by Biggles, I can tell he is honesty interested in an exchange of ideas, not in a flame war.


I&#39;ve noticed you&#39;ve used the word impotent many times in this thread. I honestly think your more concerned with your Gvts power than those who criticise you are.

No


Its not the major motivation behind the criticism, its what your Gvt does with the power which motivates it.

Well, we can&#39;t please everyone.&nbsp; Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.&nbsp; But I can appreciate your point to some degree, with this WMD fiasco in Iraq being one example and, as I stated in another thread, why we are still dependent on oil, at all, being another.

[100%]

You said alot alot of correct things in your first post
and yes i would like to thank the US for all the great things it has done and will do in the future.......

Its just a little bit difficult to ignore the USA when its
contstantly on TV, radio, newspapers, and for dinner.

And so since this is an international (western) forum - guess what we all have in common?

[Wizard_Mon1]

i think its scarey that american ideals are based on teh land of hope and glory and that the root of american society is money. i think american setlers treatment of native americans was appauling. i think that alot of the worlds ill come from the idea that money is priority and that capatalism is a effective and unbias means of world organisation. i think that america is rightfully blamed for alot of things because with the influence they hold and teh money thier economy can flash the have a a great deal of power of poorer countries.

however i dont think only america is to blame i think that most of europe has a very big part in the worlds problems, colonialisation has caused nmany problems in the world today. i think that world religion has caused the greatest number of problems in the world.

but in reality it is not the religion or the counrty or the governing body that is to blame it is the people who misuses thier power for their own selfish purposes.

[james_bond_rulez]

another nationlism debat eh?

i gotta give these dudes some credits eh? spending all day discussing important issues around them.

me? i do nothing all day but studying medicine, so one day i could use the skillz i&#39;ve acquired to help ppl, not kill them.

;)

[Wizard_Mon1]

aha but what type of medicine..... im sure we can devise soem arguement surrounding its effectiveness

[vidcc]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 January 2004 - 20:02
another nationlism debat eh?

i gotta give these dudes some credits eh? spending all day discussing important issues around them.

me? i do nothing all day but studying medicine, so one day i could use the skillz i&#39;ve acquired to help ppl, not kill them.

;)
and may your first malpractice lawsuit be a happy one :lol: :lol:

[james_bond_rulez]

very funny <_<

[hobbes]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@11 January 2004 - 21:02
another nationlism debat eh?



;)
Not meant as a nationalistic thread, actually more about human psychology.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes
Well, we can&#39;t please everyone.&nbsp; Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.

You seem very insistent on this point hobbes but I really dont think it&#39;s significant. If you think the people who criticise the US would support their own government if it were doing the same things then thats a different matter altogether.

But simply pointing out that most governments are as bad as each other has no bearing on the opinions of the citizens nor does it weaken their position when it comes to criticising US foreign policy.

Its not about pleasing people either, its about fundamental things such as the overthrowing of democratic governments and the consequent destabilisation of the affected countries.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism+11 January 2004 - 22:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 11 January 2004 - 22:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Well, we can&#39;t please everyone. Your government would probably do something similar to ours if it could and the matching need was there.

You seem very insistent on this point hobbes but I really dont think it&#39;s significant. If you think the people who criticise the US would support their own government if it were doing the same things then thats a different matter altogether.



[/b][/quote]
Let us say that Australia was not self sufficient in oil, but was militarily very strong.

Would your elected officials tell you that you are just going to have to give up living as you are accustomed and learn to deal with thread bare provisions, or would they endeavor to secure a needed resource so that citizens could continue to live as they always have.

I suggest the latter.

Just remember, any military action would be done under the guise of national security, not for oil.

Most citizens of democratic nations feel that their government is looking to secure their future. Most of what it does is unknown to them. In regard to your statement, I say "absolutely" and they would be here, like me, fending off cheap shots at their country. Notice how 4th generation noob has dug up an old hypoluxa (Things I hate about Bush) thread just for this reason. A perfect example of my point about human psychology.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 06:53
The attacks I have seen have been personal. "Stupid Americans" heads the list. The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.
by making remarks like this hobbes you then redirect all youre angst against everyone there by creating teh same generalisations that you are trying to escape from

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1+11 January 2004 - 23:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wizard_Mon1 @ 11 January 2004 - 23:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 06:53
The attacks I have seen have been personal.&nbsp; "Stupid Americans" heads the list.&nbsp; The problem I have is that you are directing these statement at all of us, when, in fact, the contingent that supports this is very small.
by making remarks like this hobbes you then redirect all youre angst against everyone there by creating teh same generalisations that you are trying to escape from [/b][/quote]
What are you even talking about?

I have directed no anger toward anyone.

I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.

[Wizard_Mon1]

well exuse me then i detected a hint of anger in your posts (easy mistake to make while comunicating via posts).

especially with your angry avatar

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@11 January 2004 - 23:23
well exuse me then i detected a hint of anger in your posts (easy mistake to make while comunicating via posts).

especially with your angry avatar
Oh, my avatar is not angry, but rather quite mad, quite mad, indeed.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 22:19
I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.
just to inform you that once youve discerned what is legit and what is not you might have also been bias in coming to those decisions, as everyone has there own view and that shapes how the percieve the world.

in other words your truth might be another mans lie

and yes i can believe that your quite mad :lol: :lol: ;)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1+11 January 2004 - 23:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wizard_Mon1 &#064; 11 January 2004 - 23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 22:19
I am attempting to discern what is legit criticism and what is a motivated for other reasons.
just to inform you that once youve discerned what is legit and what is not you might have also been bias in coming to those decisions, as everyone has there own view and that shapes how the percieve the world.

in other words your truth might be another mans lie

and yes i can believe that your quite mad :lol: :lol: ;)[/b][/quote]
Any person who cannot recognize his own biases and admit to them is a fool. I never subscribe to an agenda and force the facts to support them.

I have been critical of my government, not a blind supporter. I can see clearly, and if I think I might have a bias people need to know about, I give that information.

[Wizard_Mon1]

furry muff

but there might also be hidden biases in your subconcious that cause you to react to certain things in certain ways

but i guess they only matter if you want to truely know youre self blah blah blah i think im going off topic

[vidcc]

yoga is the answer :helpsmile:

[Wizard_Mon1]

the question is how do rich people pay to look silly

[vidcc]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@12 January 2004 - 01:10
the question is how do rich people pay to look silly
with their American Express platinum cards of course

[Wizard_Mon1]

of course darling any thing else would be primative

[DVD PIRATE III]

The US has no influence where I live..(New Zealand)
hell, we are a nuclear free country and the US isnt even allowed to bring there nuclear powered warships into new zealand waters..
(Chants loudly) No Nukes&#33; No Nukes&#33; No Nukes

[james_bond_rulez]

wow the US has nuff nukes to blow the shit out of the world who knows X times over

no wonder they have so much "influence" :lol:

time to disarm those nukes and learn how to live in peace with the rest of the world <_<

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 14:35
I never subscribe to an agenda and force the facts to support them.
so, in essence, you&#39;re superhuman?

you should hear how that sounds to another person, when you say something like "i never lie, i never twist the facts to suit my views, i never make the mistake of presenting the subjective as objective..." etc, etc. in the Star Trek tv shows, people who make such claims are often referred to as Vulcans. strangely enough, the Vulcans&#39; claims that they are always like this and never like that come across as mere vanity, when always and never turn out to not quite be always and never.

[james_bond_rulez]

valcans... lolz..

hobbes IS weird recently

he&#39;s prob on drugs or somethin :blink:

[clocker]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC@11 January 2004 - 21:58
in the Star Trek tv shows, people who make such claims are often referred to as Vulcans.
Or Tribbles.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by clocker+12 January 2004 - 06:02--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 12 January 2004 - 06:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-3RA1N1AC@11 January 2004 - 21:58
in the Star Trek tv shows, people who make such claims are often referred to as Vulcans.
Or Tribbles. [/b][/quote]
How troubling.

:ninja:

[4th gen]

i realise that my next comment won&#39;t bring anything to this topic at all, but it seems fitting to post it from bash.org:

"The problem with America is stupidity. I&#39;m not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don&#39;t we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

:)

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 13:22
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.

When an uncontested super power appears upon the Earth you will know it by this sign, the impotent will join in a confederacy against it.

Really, it is simple human psychology. All men/nations want autonomy over their lives, their destiny. When this is removed, it causes unrest, anger, and resentment.

Like all the low level workers who gather in the break room talking about how stupid their boss is, slapping each other on the back and laughing. They discredit any achievements of the boss as a ruse to mask their impotence. They demean the boss and his integrity. They wouldn&#39;t be caught dead being such an ass kissing low life as their boss who was obviously pandered to all his live.

The Boss acts without caring about others. Yeah, like any country, ever, has passed up something to strengthen itself because it wouldn&#39;t be "nice". Humans are humans.

So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.
This whole thread is wandering off topic, read the first remark. This thread is not about American citizens being blamed for the actions of their government, it&#39;s a defence of the US administration on the grounds that any other country would do the same, given the same power. This is, of course, rot&#33; Australia was given as an example, but I can tell you right now, our government would not act in the same way, because the citizens of this country would not allow it. For one thing, we have the ability to completely change our political landscape, something the US, with it&#39;s Tweedledum&#092;Tweedledee party politics can never achieve.


So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

That&#39;s all you see?


:)

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen@12 January 2004 - 06:46
i realise that my next comment won&#39;t bring anything to this topic at all, but it seems fitting to post it from bash.org:

"The problem with America is stupidity. I&#39;m not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don&#39;t we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

:)
:blink: :huh: :blink: :huh: What dat mean? I&#39;m American.

[james_bond_rulez]

bravo, busyman :lol:

braVO&#33;&#33;

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman+12 January 2004 - 05:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 12 January 2004 - 05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-4th gen@12 January 2004 - 06:46
i realise that my next comment won&#39;t bring anything to this topic at all, but it seems fitting to post it from bash.org:

"The problem with America is stupidity. I&#39;m not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don&#39;t we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

:)
:blink: :huh: :blink: :huh: What dat mean? I&#39;m American. [/b][/quote]
:lol:

[Barbarossa]

I realise that the quote below won&#39;t bring anything to this topic at all either, but it too seems fitting to post it, and I find it insanely funny, if barely likely to be true:



This is the transcript of the actual radio conversation of a US Naval ship with the Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in Oct 1995.

Radio conversation released by chief of naval operations 10/10/95.

Canadians: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the north.

Canadians: Negative. you will have to divert your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: This is the captain of a US navy ship. I say again, divert your course.

Canadians: No. I say again, divert your course.

Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln. the second biggest ship in the United States Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that you change your course 15 degrees north, that&#39;s one five degrees north, or counter measures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.

Canadians: We are a lighthouse. Your call.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by barbarossa@12 January 2004 - 15:13
I realise that the quote below won't bring anything to this topic at all either, but it too seems fitting to post it, and I find it insanely funny, if barely likely to be true:



This is the transcript of the actual radio conversation of a US Naval ship with the Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in Oct 1995.

Radio conversation released by chief of naval operations 10/10/95.

Canadians: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the north.

Canadians: Negative. you will have to divert your course 15 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

Americans: This is the captain of a US navy ship. I say again, divert your course.

Canadians: No. I say again, divert your course.

Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln. the second biggest ship in the United States Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that you change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or counter measures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.

Canadians: We are a lighthouse. Your call.

FUNNY AS SHIT!!!!! :lol:

[Busyman]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@12 January 2004 - 08:31
bravo, busyman :lol:

braVO&#33;&#33;
Just doing my share to help out in the fight against American intelligence is all. :lol: :lol:

[jer2eydevil88]

:) ok then hows this for an americans view of the world :)
http://www.zigzap.com/up/world-usa.gif

Or is that to simple for you all?

[Busyman]

There ya go.

There are alot of dumb American jokes out there.
Interesting that America is a superpower yet we are stupid.
Must not be too dumb.
Foreigners including the Arabs that hate us send their kids here to go to school.
I take it all foreign governments are ultra smart. I think not.

btw there people ALL OVER the world that think like the above pic. :lol: :lol:

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 14:36
Interesting that America is a superpower yet we are stupid.
Must not be too dumb.

doesn&#39;t take intelligence to be a superpower ;)

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 16:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen @ 12 January 2004 - 16:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 14:36
Interesting that America is a superpower yet we are stupid.
Must not be too dumb.

doesn&#39;t take intelligence to be a superpower ;) [/b][/quote]
It takes more than you think 4th gen.
Especially when not run by a dictator.

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:01
It takes more than you think 4th gen.
Especially when not run by a dictator.
it seems all the U.S. needs is a lot of nuclear weapons and the &#39;balls&#39; to fight anyone who pisses them off... ;)

[Busyman]

It takes intelligence to get nuclear weapons.
Whether procured or invented.

In the US it was not always this way of "fighting anyone who pisses us off".

After WWII there was a dramatic shift in foreign policy.
By leaving "the world" alone, the world almost had an evil dictator.

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:08
It takes intelligence to get nuclear weapons.
Whether procured or invented.
if money = intelligence then you&#39;re right

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 17:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen @ 12 January 2004 - 17:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:08
It takes intelligence to get nuclear weapons.
Whether procured or invented.
if money = intelligence then you&#39;re right [/b][/quote]
How do you get money if you are not born into it?
Or hit the lottery? :lol:

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:27
How do you get money if you are not born into it?
Or hit the lottery? :lol:
you use slave workers to mine your gold :)

[4th gen]

and you buy alaska for next to nothing from the russians, then exploit the oil reserves (now, where have i heard that before...?) :)

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 17:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen &#064; 12 January 2004 - 17:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:27
How do you get money if you are not born into it?
Or hit the lottery? :lol:
you use slave workers to mine your gold :) [/b][/quote]
Oh and that&#39;s not smart? Have someone else do work for you for free.
Blacks helped build this country for free with no choice I might add.

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:32
Oh and that&#39;s not smart? Have someone else do work for you for free.
Blacks helped build this country for free with no choice I might add.
are you proud of your country doing that?

[Busyman]

Fuuuuck no&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;m black myself.
I didn&#39;t say it was right.
Any black historian will tell you they same thing.

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:36
Fuuuuck no&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;m black myself.
I didn&#39;t say it was right.
Any black historian will tell you they same thing.
i can&#39;t keep this discussion going, it&#39;s a pointless waste of time

i don&#39;t like america, it&#39;s as simple as that

[james_bond_rulez]

where is my biatch?

*grabs shotty*

i feel safe now :lol:

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 17:42--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen &#064; 12 January 2004 - 17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:36
Fuuuuck no&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;m black myself.
I didn&#39;t say it was right.
Any black historian will tell you they same thing.
i can&#39;t keep this discussion going, it&#39;s a pointless waste of time

i don&#39;t like america, it&#39;s as simple as that [/b][/quote]
Oh wow I didn&#39;t know it was quite like that. :o
It&#39;s a waste of time when your point is shit. I know man.
Hell "I" don&#39;t like MOST of the politicians in office.

You don&#39;t like us...
Oh well fuck off then....... <_<

[4th gen]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:47
Oh wow I didn&#39;t know it was quite like that. :o
It&#39;s a waste of time when your point is shit. I know man.
Hell "I" don&#39;t like MOST of the politicians in office.

You don&#39;t like us...
Oh well fuck off then....... <_<
i said that i didn&#39;t like america

there&#39;s a difference between not liking america and not liking americans... :)

[Rat Faced]

Every country HAS done what the US is accused of, especially the European Colonial countries like the UK.

It was wrong then, its still wrong now..

However, just as all Brits werent and arent the same as the people in power at the time, the US citizens arent the same as the US Government.


The main difference these days is that the world is a much smaller place, and people find out about the shit....its much harder to not get caught out by your citizens these days.

I am critical of anything i see as unjust, wether its by my own Government, the US Government or anyone elses..but I am open to the fact its what I perceive to be unjust...others are free to disagree.

The Americans have no monopoly on stupid people...I believe our % of morons are about the same. I believe sometimes however; that when someone comments on "Stupid Americans" they are commenting on the Government...the citizens dont make the stupid regulations, laws and wars that they are calling "Stupid"...

I think its like, as an example...Im free to call my sister a bitch, but outsiders arent... We get very protective of our families and countries, even if we agree with whats being said sometimes....its the way its being said, and who is saying it...




As to Billy_Dean....Australia has never been in the position, however if their treatment of refugees etc is anything to go by, then the Australian citizens may have a lot less actual control than he perceives; if they ever are in that position...



May I just point out that anyone that actually wants the job of running a nation....has already demonstrated that they are unfit to govern in my opinion. Meglomaniacs are two a penny in the world, and shit rises to the top a lot more often than cream does...just my 2 pennyworth...

[alpha]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 17:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen &#064; 12 January 2004 - 17:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:47
Oh wow I didn&#39;t know it was quite like that. :o
It&#39;s a waste of time when your point is shit. I know man.
Hell "I" don&#39;t like MOST of the politicians in office.

You don&#39;t like us...
Oh well fuck off then....... <_<
i said that i didn&#39;t like america

there&#39;s a difference between not liking america and not liking americans... :) [/b][/quote]
When you say you "dont like America" what exactly do you mean, then? That you dont like the land that they live on? :blink:
What is a country without the people that inhabit it?

[Busyman]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 17:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen &#064; 12 January 2004 - 17:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:47
Oh wow I didn&#39;t know it was quite like that. :o
It&#39;s a waste of time when your point is shit. I know man.
Hell "I" don&#39;t like MOST of the politicians in office.

You don&#39;t like us...
Oh well fuck off then....... <_<
i said that i didn&#39;t like america

there&#39;s a difference between not liking america and not liking americans... :) [/b][/quote]
I wholeheartedly apologize.
Hard to differentiate the two though when you make jokes (which were quite funny) and then say you don;t like America.

No prob 4th gen ;)

[Busyman]

Originally posted by alpha+12 January 2004 - 18:07--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (alpha &#064; 12 January 2004 - 18:07)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by 4th gen@12 January 2004 - 17:55
<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:47
Oh wow I didn&#39;t know it was quite like that. :o
It&#39;s a waste of time when your point is shit. I know man.
Hell "I" don&#39;t like MOST of the politicians in office.

You don&#39;t like us...
Oh well fuck off then....... <_<
i said that i didn&#39;t like america

there&#39;s a difference between not liking america and not liking americans... :)
When you say you "dont like America" what exactly do you mean, then? That you dont like the land that they live on? :blink:
What is a country without the people that inhabit it? [/b][/quote]
I think he&#39;s referring to American foreign policy.

As a foreigner, that is only thing I can fathom 4th gen having a problem with.

[alpha]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 05:22
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.


Are you disallowing for the fact that people of different cultures may react differently to different situations?
That&#39;s a rather narrow perspective.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by Busyman@12 January 2004 - 17:10
What is a country without the people that inhabit it?
I think he&#39;s referring to American foreign policy.

As a foreigner, that is only thing I can fathom 4th gen having a problem with. [/quote]
that and the fact that we don&#39;t spell words like colour correctly :lol:

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by vidcc+12 January 2004 - 17:34--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vidcc &#064; 12 January 2004 - 17:34)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 17:10

What is a country without the people that inhabit it?
I think he&#39;s referring to American foreign policy.

As a foreigner, that is only thing I can fathom 4th gen having a problem with.
that and the fact that we don&#39;t spell words like colour correctly :lol: [/b][/quote]
an divvent speak propa like wot we do...

[Wizard_Mon1]

sup rat faced hows it going :lol: ;) long time no see

[j2k4]

Originally posted by 4th gen@12 January 2004 - 12:30
and you buy alaska for next to nothing from the russians, then exploit the oil reserves (now, where have i heard that before...?)&nbsp; :)
I am a bit perplexed by this statement.

We picked up Alaska from the Russians; true.

We got a terrific deal; true.

Are you implying we somehow used the Russians in the process?

That the Russians allowed themselves to be duped?

I myself am not wild about the Russians, but I would be loathe to insinuate they are somehow incapable of proper negotiation.

Also:

There is oil in Alaska, which, by-and-large, we have not extracted.

Why do you insist on the pejorative "exploit"?

Does this mean you believe the entire middle-east is "exploiting" their oil supplies?

Or Russia? Or Venezuela?

Are you anti-oil, too?

I suggest you park your little Ford, then.

Swear off plastics while you&#39;re at it.

:)

[4th gen]

Originally posted by j2k4@12 January 2004 - 17:29
I suggest you park your little Ford, then.

Swear off plastics while you&#39;re at it.
if america didn&#39;t supersize their engines then the current oil situation would be much better :lol:

[vidcc]

Originally posted by 4th gen+12 January 2004 - 18:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4th gen @ 12 January 2004 - 18:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@12 January 2004 - 17:29
I suggest you park your little Ford, then.

Swear off plastics while you&#39;re at it.
if america didn&#39;t supersize their engines then the current oil situation would be much better :lol: [/b][/quote]
it will never happen with petrol being so cheap...with the current exchange rate petrol is about 80 pence per gallon

[4th gen]

Originally posted by vidcc@12 January 2004 - 17:49
it will never happen with petrol being so cheap...with the current exchange rate petrol is about 80 pence per gallon
petrol in the uk is 80 pence per litre

perhaps america could think about the rest of the world...?

or maybe they&#39;ll just go for bush&#39;s favourite measure and plant some petrol trees (reference to bush&#39;s solution to co2 pollution/global warming (not that i subscribe to the global warming theory))

[vidcc]

we will believe in the global warming theory just as soon as someone can prove there is a profit in it...until then it&#39;s nothing more than hogwash :lol: :lol:

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by leftism@11 January 2004 - 00:03

Sometimes it seems like the Gvt and the people are synonomous in the USA.

There is a lot of criticism of american individuals too, and a lot of the things that are wrong witht the government are blamed on the people.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+12 January 2004 - 05:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC &#064; 12 January 2004 - 05:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 14:35
I never subscribe to an agenda and force the facts to support them.
so, in essence, you&#39;re superhuman?

you should hear how that sounds to another person, when you say something like "i never lie, i never twist the facts to suit my views, i never make the mistake of presenting the subjective as objective..." etc, etc. in the Star Trek tv shows, people who make such claims are often referred to as Vulcans. strangely enough, the Vulcans&#39; claims that they are always like this and never like that come across as mere vanity, when always and never turn out to not quite be always and never.[/b][/quote]
Sorry, I didn&#39;t mean to come off as honest. What is the purpose of coming to a discussion board if you plan on lying?

I don&#39;t attempt to deceive, is that a problem? I make mistakes, and I admit to them when pointed out.

If you have a belief which is not supported by new data, why cling to it, what is the point?

In real life, people who refer to the star trek tv show are referred to as dorks. :lol:

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 January 2004 - 00:53
I am commenting on the fact that the people who tend to blast the US are more interested in their impotence than a unique agenda or quality of American politics.


Maybe that is the motivation for the criticism, but you have to admit that with our apathy and consequent (I think that is the reason for it) gulibility we make good targets. :unsure:

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@11 January 2004 - 16:38
furry muff

but there might also be hidden biases in your subconcious that cause you to react to certain things in certain ways

but i guess they only matter if you want to truely know youre self blah blah blah i think im going off topic
If you understand yourself and your motivatins and pay attention you can keep the biases from having undue influence on your opinions and actions. anyone can do that if they think objectiity is important. no one is stuck being a slave to emoitons and untrue convictions. :huh:

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean+11 January 2004 - 23:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Billy_Dean @ 11 January 2004 - 23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 13:22
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.

When an uncontested super power appears upon the Earth you will know it by this sign, the impotent will join in a confederacy against it.

Really, it is simple human psychology. All men/nations want autonomy over their lives, their destiny. When this is removed, it causes unrest, anger, and resentment.

Like all the low level workers who gather in the break room talking about how stupid their boss is, slapping each other on the back and laughing. They discredit any achievements of the boss as a ruse to mask their impotence. They demean the boss and his integrity. They wouldn&#39;t be caught dead being such an ass kissing low life as their boss who was obviously pandered to all his live.

The Boss acts without caring about others. Yeah, like any country, ever, has passed up something to strengthen itself because it wouldn&#39;t be "nice". Humans are humans.

So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.
This whole thread is wandering off topic, read the first remark. This thread is not about American citizens being blamed for the actions of their government, it&#39;s a defence of the US administration on the grounds that any other country would do the same, given the same power. This is, of course, rot&#33; Australia was given as an example, but I can tell you right now, our government would not act in the same way, because the citizens of this country would not allow it. For one thing, we have the ability to completely change our political landscape, something the US, with it&#39;s Tweedledum&#092;Tweedledee party politics can never achieve.


So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

That&#39;s all you see?


:) [/b][/quote]
I&#39;m not saying the us is perfect at all , but don&#39;t you think that the need to feel superior in soem wya has something to do with all of the criticism?

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by Busyman+12 January 2004 - 10:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 12 January 2004 - 10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by 4th gen@12 January 2004 - 17:13
<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@12 January 2004 - 15:08
It takes intelligence to get nuclear weapons.
Whether procured or invented.
if money = intelligence then you&#39;re right
How do you get money if you are not born into it?
Or hit the lottery? :lol: [/b][/quote]
actuallyu i think it probably has more to do withthe way our government is set up. if people belive they are working for thtemselves and their own gain they will probably work harder than if they feel they are been controlled or that thye won&#39;t see any of the fruits of their labor. look at people who are paid by the hour.

[Chame1eon]

Originally posted by alpha+12 January 2004 - 11:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (alpha @ 12 January 2004 - 11:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 05:22
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.


Are you disallowing for the fact that people of different cultures may react differently to different situations?
That&#39;s a rather narrow perspective. [/b][/quote]
That&#39;s true, but a lot of things includeing a list of basic emotions like happiness sadness disgust ect. and things like ethnocentricity are pretty universal. Not always , of course, but we are all humans.

[Chame1eon]

wow, i had somwthig to say to everyone. Is that annoying?
Just wondering.

[clocker]

Originally posted by Chame1eon@12 January 2004 - 14:13
if people belive they are working for thtemselves and their own gain they will probably work harder than if they feel they are been controlled or that thye won&#39;t see any of the fruits of their labor. look at people who are paid by the hour.
Right then.
I&#39;ve been looking at people who get paid by the hour.
According to your nebulous theory, exactly what is it that I&#39;m supposed to be seeing?

[Chame1eon]

A lot of people who get paid by the hour, especially in jobs like front counter person at mcdonalds, where they have little control and don&#39;t reap a lot of rewards, or get a lot of credit for what they are doing will not work as hard as people who have more rewarding , or goal oriented jobs. There is just not a lot of motivation do a good job if you are just being paid for how long you are there.

I just meant that in a place where you get to keep more of the money you make and you can choose to do pretty much whatever you want you will have more motivation.

In some places (china, i think, maybe japan) you take a test when you are really young (5? obviously i am not a detail person) that determines what you will do for the rest of your l8ife. if you get a low score you have to be a janitor or whatever. there is no choice.
In other places you pay really high taxes and the government takes care of a lot of things for you. so you have less to loose (health care) if you don&#39;t make a lot of money. in some cases, i think this is good, but in other i think it is pretty bad. Either way individuals are more motiavated to work hard.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@12 January 2004 - 06:48

This is, of course, rot&#33;&nbsp;

Add 1 part: anger

Australia was given as an example, but I can tell you right now, our government would not act in the same way, because the citizens of this country would not allow it.

To an equal measure of specious moral high ground.&nbsp;


So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

That&#39;s all you see?

I just saw it, again.


:) <_<
http://www.mcbriens.net/liam/img/smilies/badabumdeesh.gif- looks like I&#39;m "tactics boy", now&#33; But I have made my points to my satisfaction and I don&#39;t think additional posts will change anyones mind, at this point.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by Chame1eon@12 January 2004 - 14:21
In some places (china, i think, maybe japan) you take a test when you are really young (5? obviously i am not a detail person) that determines what you will do for the rest of your l8ife. if you get a low score you have to be a janitor or whatever. there is no choice.
where the hell did u hear that? in all my years in asia, china, taiwan honghok never had this kind of crap and certainly not now. and certainly not Japan.

u choose what kind of professional or job you want to have, get the appropriate education and training and u&#39;ll be qualified for that position

what u said is plainly not true at all

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by hobbes@12 January 2004 - 12:37
In real life, people who refer to the star trek tv show are referred to as dorks. :lol:
yeah well, i&#39;ve never actually watched it, honest. i just heard about it from some dorks. and i never miss the toilet when i urinate.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+13 January 2004 - 02:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC &#064; 13 January 2004 - 02:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@12 January 2004 - 12:37
In real life, people who refer to the star trek tv show are referred to as dorks. :lol:
yeah well, i&#39;ve never actually watched it, honest. i just heard about it from some dorks. and i never miss the toilet when i urinate.[/b][/quote]
J&#39;Pol and his ilk, perhaps? As for your second statement, such confidence in your hand, eye, toilet bowl coordination, comes off as a bit cocky. <_< (bigboab would be proud at that painful double entendre.)

[clocker]

Originally posted by hobbes@12 January 2004 - 13:37


In real life, people who refer to the star trek tv show are referred to as dorks. :lol:
http://yuchtar.users4.50megs.com/Gallery/klin.jpg
Hey&#33;
Even dorks have dreams.

[hobbes]

Well, set my taser to "stun". Those lady thingeys are foreheadily challenged but gorgeous.

[clocker]

Unfortunately Hobbes, I don&#39;t believe that either of them can cook. :(

[hobbes]

Originally posted by clocker@13 January 2004 - 03:39
Unfortunately Hobbes, I don&#39;t believe that either of them can cook. :(
http://toddlerstoday.com/graphics/tantrum.jpg

Oh fuck it all, then&#33;

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by hobbes@13 January 2004 - 08:51
So all I see is anger and specious moral high ground acting as a facade to mask fear and impotence.

Because that&#39;s what you want to see&#33;

... a facade to mask fear and impotence.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Please God, let America save us from all the nasties in the world, just as they have done for thousands of years. :helpsmile:



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by hobbes+12 January 2004 - 22:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 12 January 2004 - 22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@13 January 2004 - 03:39
Unfortunately Hobbes, I don&#39;t believe that either of them can cook. :(
http://toddlerstoday.com/graphics/tantrum.jpg

Oh fuck it all, then&#33; [/b][/quote]
So childish, Hobbes.

Here&#39;s a lolli-pop.

[james_bond_rulez]

NOOOoooOO wrong one&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

*JBR zips up* :lol:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@13 January 2004 - 02:34
NOOOoooOO wrong one&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

*JBR zips up* :lol:
:blink:

[alpha]

Originally posted by Chame1eon+12 January 2004 - 22:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chame1eon @ 12 January 2004 - 22:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by alpha@12 January 2004 - 11:18
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@11 January 2004 - 05:22
I really get so sick of USA bashing when it all comes down to impotent nations pretending that they are somehow different, when, in fact, they would be no different from the USA if they had the ability.


Are you disallowing for the fact that people of different cultures may react differently to different situations?
That&#39;s a rather narrow perspective.
That&#39;s true, but a lot of things includeing a list of basic emotions like happiness sadness disgust ect. and things like ethnocentricity are pretty universal. Not always , of course, but we are all humans. [/b][/quote]
the culture of a nation dictates, to an extent, its policies.
(for example, India&#39;s Non-Alliance policy)
Hobbes:

..they(other nations) would be no different from the USA if they had the ability..
I&#39;m surprised no one has taken issue with this horrendous statement :o
Many countries do not spend 1/10th as much as the USA on developing "the ability" (i assume you mean militry strength) though they have more pressing issues than liberating people from dictators.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by alpha@13 January 2004 - 08:27

Many countries do not spend 1/10th as much as the USA on developing "the ability" (i assume you mean militry strength) though they have more pressing issues than liberating people from dictators.
Again maybe the US overdoes the liberating but remember WWII.
Our "nonmeddling" nearly cost the world.

[Yogi]

a facade to mask fear and impotence.

Now that is exactly what i see when i look at American policy.

One big facade, hidden agenda&#39;s and armsproducers, multinationals and oildiggers

as the true rulers&#33;&#33;

Yogi

[hobbes]

Well, I guess I have learned what I had set out to. What is unique about American government.

We have leaders who lie, who have agendas they hide from the public, our media and elections are rigged and the rich here, attempt to get richer.

Thanks. Please return to your corruption free, altruistic societies with your full disclosure impartial media. BTW, you may want to crack a window, the vapors from the glue you are sniffing may be affecting your judgement ;) .

[alpha]

The only thing unique about the American government is this:
http://www.lifeisajoke.com/Bush/bush_chimp.JPG
try getting rid of it.









(Hes probably the least liked prez. in the world....and the most made fun of.)

[jer2eydevil88]

LOL..... Now for my rant&#33;


This topic is great I love bashing my own country. I was under the voting age when Bush was elected and while Gore wasnt exactly a golden goose we are living under a master and theif. In my opinion at least (for those who choose to post 20 things bickering over this by tomorrow) as I believe I am still entitled to that.

If you care to compare our country to others.

Yes We do use more petrolium by products.

Yes We do dominate the world as the largest superpower.

Yes We tend to go into countries and impose our will for them to be a free society as well.

Yes We waste billions on crap like tax refunds that (arguably of course) in my opinion dont work.

Yes We tend to lie and sometimes cheat other countries.

Yes We arent perfect&#33;


However&#33; You are reading a post of a citizen of the country previously described not in fact but in opinion&#33; Meaning that while your countries were under dictators/facists/communists control my country was reshaping the way the world is&#33; While you take for granted the fact that we can have these discussions in a place where million/billions can read them and comment I take notice of how many died for these privledges/rights&#33;

If you lived in America and hated America you would have plenty of company. How many people in your country protest things your government does ""DAILY"" there are hundreds maybe thousands who do here&#33;

If you think that just because America has an army that does whatever our little man in the white house wants makes us a superpower then my fellow forum member you are sadly mistaken&#33;

America is a superpower because it pioneered the modern day government&#33; Because it wasnt attacked by a land based army after WWII&#33; Because the general American cares&#33; If you think that another country could rise up like Germany did in WWII then look at what we did in Iraq (the first time - i dont know why we went back yet...) when a country invades another on the simple basis of hatred America steps in&#33;

If you read all that then I am greatly suprised with your attention span as mine is supposedly only 15seconds (or thats what I am told by staticians) . Please note these words I typed are merely based on the few "facts" I hold true meaning they are my opinions.

Edit:
As for Prez. GWB - I do not wish death on anyone but to all those out there who kidnap we have an insane millionare that cant pronounce help running recklessly around the country. Plz just pick him up and keep him safe till 2006 when we will for sure have a new Prez who has shown us a new America. LOL :)

[ilw]

Yes We tend to go into countries and impose our will for them to be a free society as well.
I&#39;m sure some people disagree with the bit in bold


America is a superpower because it pioneered the modern day government&#33;Because it wasnt attacked by a land based army after WWII&#33; Because the general American cares&#33;
What exactly did it pioneer and how did any of those things make it a superpower?


If you think that another country could rise up like Germany did in WWII then look at what we did in Iraq (the first time - i dont know why we went back yet...) when a country invades another on the simple basis of hatred America steps in&#33;
:blink:


My personal opinion of why western europeans in particular are getting uppity about the US is that the EU is coming together and its creating a stronger sense of community among nations which historically were bitter enemies. Imo we seem to be respecting each other as nations more, and our national decisions are becoming more and more influenced by the &#39;common good&#39; as opposed to national self interest, as well as countires being more accountable to other nations.All this imo is a good thing, but a lot of people bang on about losing bits of our sovereignty. The US has been excluded from this cultural shift and imo the disparity is a source of annoyance, as well as a bit of instinctual dislike for those in power.

I was watching CNN a few months back, i can&#39;t remember exactly what they were doing interviews about, but it was interviewing americans (i think in California) and i got the distinct impression that there is a tendency to want to go against international pressure, ie if all of Europe condemns something, the last thing the public want to see is their government actually listening to that pressure and respecting European opinion. ie the us vs them is on both sides of the atlantic. I also got the impression that most americans think Europe is comparable to America, whereas Europeans generally consider their own country in comparison to America. ie if the european &#39;consensus&#39; is against something Americans see it as a 1 vs 1 decision, ie the feeling is Europe disagree with us, whereas europeans see it as a 15:1 decision, ie all of us agree its just America that doesn&#39;t. (Obviously i&#39;m simplifying things loads)

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by ilw@16 January 2004 - 06:20
All this imo is a good thing, but a lot of people bang on about losing bits of our sovereignty. The US has been excluded from this cultural shift and imo the disparity is a source of annoyance, as well as a bit of instinctual dislike for those in power.
one thing i find ironic is that, while a lot of americans are highly interested in the condition of the u.s.&#39;s sovereignty (objections to the influence of the u.n. for example), the u.s. seems generally oblivious to the sovereignty of other countries within our sphere of influence. we (americans) always act bewildered and offended when people in weaker countries try to assert their independence and reject our influence, or reject regimes that our government supports. for a country born from revolution, the u.s. has (generally) been terribly unfriendly toward other countries&#39; revolutionary movements.

[100%]

one thing i find ironic is that, while a lot of americans are highly interested in the condition of the u.s.&#39;s sovereignty (objections to the influence of the u.n. for example), the u.s. seems generally oblivious to the sovereignty of other countries within our sphere of influence. we (americans) always act bewildered and offended when people in weaker countries try to assert their independence and reject our influence, or reject regimes that our government supports. for a country born from revolution, the u.s. has (generally) been terribly unfriendly toward other countries&#39; revolutionary movements.

i agree and is this a small token of proof?
American Airlines pilot Dale Robun Hirsch raises his middle finger while he was being photographed by Brazilian immigration officers
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040115/i/r834766954.jpg

LINK (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/040115/ids_photos_wl/r834766954.jpg&e=3)

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by jer2eydevil88@16 January 2004 - 12:19
...Meaning that while your countries were under dictators/facists/communists control my country was reshaping the way the world is&#33;...
Not every other country in the world was under dictator/fascist/communist control. Indeed, depending on what time era you&#39;re even looking at, the latter two didn&#39;t really exist.

:ninja:

[1234]

The UK shaped modern politics, not the US. One of the few ways the US has shaped modern politics is by brutally repressing democracy in South America. Organising violent coups against democratically elected govts and replacing them with dictators such as Pinochet. Once it got it&#39;s hand in, the US moved on to do the same worldwide.

How many here know of Uzbekistan?

[hobbes]

I guess the question I am asking is: Does any government ever act altruistically? Does a leader of a nation tell his people that they are going to have to suffer this winter because all excess grains will be sent to help those starving, because "it is the right thing to do?" Will he remove all the cars and replace them with bikes, will he ask people to give up hot showers in the morning? Would such a fool, even see the revolution coming? You cannot succeed as a leader by stepping backwards.

I would venture that the goal of all elected officials is to elevate the standard of living in his country. How this has been performed throughout history is different. Before, people often attempted to conquer and occupy land, now we find it easier to exert control over regions through "friendly" governments to secure what we need.

I don&#39;t think the US is being globally influencial/imperialistic for the fun of it, it relies on so many different things from all over the world, and it is attempting to secure these items. The United States was awarded the Phillipines in the Spanish-American War, we let them choose independence. We have not captured Puerto Rico, Cuba or the Virgin Islands. If they had something we needed, consider them ours, otherwise we don&#39;t just pointlessly acquire countries.

So my point is that people are people and governments are governments (each one wanting to become more powerful or secure- how this plays out for the individual citizen varies greatly based on the type of governing body). I made no attempt to justify what my country does. I wanted to explain that it, like all it&#39;s powerful predecessors, is doing what it is able to do, to ensure the its future and make it stronger. This is a pattern repeated throughout history. We have control now. On day, when we stumble and fall, your country will take over, and you will strive to do what we are doing. Your methods may be different, but damn straight you will use whatever means necessary to secure what you need.

So, I have no problem with your anger at some of our policies, or how we attempt to secure our future. You are here to be our buddies as it benefits us (and the reciprocol is true), but we are not in a popularity contest. Given the same power, the same standard of living, and the same needs, your country would act no differently. Don&#39;t pretend to be somehow morally superior, it just doesn&#39;t wash.

[james_bond_rulez]

good points hobbes
:lol:

[james_bond_rulez]

so i guess IF say, China, is the super power in the future it would be the americans that&#39;s whining?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

China is gonna rule ;)

and believe me it wouldn&#39;t be pleasant if Chinese ruled they suck at it :lol:

[ilw]

I think your statement

I would venture that the goal of all elected officials is to elevate the standard of living in his country.
is a bit too simplified, for starters the officials nearly always have vested interests and i&#39;m sure that affects the decisions they make, (for example people have pointed to Bush and associates&#39; oil connections especially considering the current government&#39;s policies re. the environment and Iraq). However, the elected officials also have a duty (or if duty doesn&#39;t persuade them, the incentive is being re-elected) to represent their populations wishes to a certain degree and public opinion generally does contain a good amount of altruism. Also there are obviously limits to how much you can exploit other countries in the goal of improving your own nations quality of life.

I think someone else mentioned the fact that the world is getting smaller, so i think everyone had better get used to having people look over their shoulder and voice their opinions, especially when self interest is at the detriment to the rest of the world&#39;s population. Although America is obviously a sovereign nation I think we deserve some input when the outcome significantly affects us all.


Given the same power, the same standard of living, and the same needs, your country would act no differently. Don&#39;t pretend to be somehow morally superior, it just doesn&#39;t wash.
Imo no 2 countries would act even remotely the same, I think geography and history have a massive impact on the way countries act and the cultural identity of the people. Overall some would be better, some worse, i don&#39;t think you can justify what you seem to see as a complete lack of altruism by saying that, hypothetically, everyone who had the oppurtunity would be as bad (or good) as you.

[hobbes]

ILW,

Of course it is simplified, I want people to read it for the concepts. Even though politicians do have personal agendas, they must overall impress upon the nation that they have made it stronger, that is priority number 1. If we are starving and he is making money for his oil buddies, he is gone.

Charity is not altruism, it is kindness. If I throw a bum a five dollar bill, I am nice, but my life is not encumbered. No leader, who had the power, would ever tell his people that the future of the country was uncertain, he could fix that, but it just wouldn&#39;t be "nice". Nobody has ever done that.

Can you show me a single act of altriusm, ever. When has one country ever given of itself for "good", at the expense of it&#39;s own citizens, without expecting a bigger payback in the end.

We are not "bad", we are selfish. Any ruler of any country who thinks that what is required to keep his people happy is in jeopardy, and has the power to do something about it, will.

People are people, governments are governments. I wanted to distill out that there is nothing unique to our government, we are just repeating what all those who have proceeded us have done as world powers. It is the nature of the beast. The moral highground taken by the outsiders looking in is simply a facade.

[vidcc]

hobbes...in your arguement you have stated often that what the USA is doing is just what other countries would do given the opportunity. I couldn&#39;t argue for or against that as it&#39;s probably true, however in your arguement you have made me think that it&#39;s not the fact that we do try to look after our own interests, it&#39;s the fact that we try to pretend to the rest of the world that we are doing it for a moral reason.
After all we didn&#39;t really invade Iraq to help the people of that country, releasing them from oppression...we did it for oil. You yourself i believe kind of insinuated that point.
I wonder if Iraq had no oil would we have done the same ?

[hobbes]

My whole theme is that I try to discuss the truth and not propagate an agenda under false pretenses.

Iraq by hobbes (http://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=26819)
Iraq 2 by hobbes (http://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=31003)

All governments create straw horses to mask their true intent, this goes back to the nature of the beast. This is nothing unique to America.

Without oil, Saddam would be killing people as he pleases. Had Saddam taken a shining to the US and sold us oil cheap, he would be killing his people as he pleases.

Political reality is not pretty. It is not about anything but securing the future of America. Deposing a foe and installing a new pro-America democratic regime is what we are doing now, to secure our future supply of oil.

[Biggles]

Hobbes

Real Politik and Money

They go together like Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll.

However, those in power like to pretend to themselves and the masses. The fact that "everybody knows" as Leonard Cohen so eloquently put it, is by and by.