The World

[Afronaut]

Thats just pretty words...

[manker]

Is Man not a part of nature. So Man's creations are as much nature as a bird's nest or a squirrel's drey.

Therefore if you believe that man is capable of ugliness it is incorrect to say that all nature is beautiful.

[ZaZu]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

That is not to say that man is only capable of creating ugliness. Simply that there would be no ugliness without us.
What about the platypus? :huh:

http://img37.exs.cx/img37/2773/platypus.jpg
The platypus is ugly...and its natural :lol:

EDIT: shouldn't this be in the Lounge?

[Strangelove]

Platypus is a lovely creature.

I agree with JPaul....

Nature is beautiful in all her manifestations, although not always kind.

Man, is the planets virus.

[RPerry]

Man, is the planets virus.

I thought Woman was ??? :rolleyes:

[clocker]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

Since the very concept of "beauty" and "ugliness" is a man-made contrivance, it's hard to argue with your assertion.

[Busyman]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

That is not to say that man is only capable of creating ugliness. Simply that there would be no ugliness without us.
All nature is not beautiful to me.

It may be fascinating but not beautiful.

Man is the monkeywrench in nature's cycle.

Self-awareness and free will make us the x-factor.

[spinningfreemanny]

haven't you seen hyenas take down and antelope? disgusting... :sick:

I find various insects very ugly...

[Barbarossa]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

That is not to say that man is only capable of creating ugliness. Simply that there would be no ugliness without us.

There are some pretty ugly fish out there... :sick:

[Strangelove]

Some may be unpleasant upon your eyes or scary... none of it is ugly.

That sounds Blasphemous, no matter what religion you suffer from :P

S(he)/It did create all of it that way... and for the atheists, they have all evolved and adapted to survive in their environment, to be efficient in what they do.

This is a kind of beauty in itself. :D

[Barbarossa]

Some may be unpleasant upon your eyes or scary... none of it is ugly.

That sounds Blasphemous, no matter what religion you suffer from :P

S(he)/It did create all of it that way... and for the atheists, they have all evolved and adapted to survive in their environment, to be efficient in what they do.

This is a kind of beauty in itself. :D

No, this is fucking ugly, no arguments:

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_SM/0001-0309-2621-2854_SM.jpg

[Strangelove]

I've been with uglier guys :blushing:

[TheDave]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

That is not to say that man is only capable of creating ugliness. Simply that there would be no ugliness without us.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder :huh:

[clocker]

I understand your statement.
I don't agree with it.

"They revelled in the harmony and lived as one with the world, of which they were part. They celebrated the beauty and majesty and built their lives around it. "
To which ancestors are you referring?
At what point did these romanticised ancestors morph into us?

"We have seperated ourselves. We cut nature down and polute it with the smoke from our pyres. We have turned against our mother and now despoil her, like errant children"
"Nature" has, and will continue to, reward one trait above all others- adaptability which leads to survival.
Successfully exploiting one's niche in the ecosystem is not a shortcoming, it is a biological imperative.
Species who fail at this prime directive disappear, those who are successful dominate until a more aggressively adaptable replacement arrives or the ecosystem itself changes (or is changed).

How do you justify arbitrarily placing our species outside the rules/domain of "Nature" as if we sprung, full-fledged, from another continuum?
Did we not arise ( either in seven days or over the span of millenia, take your pick) from the same wellspring as the beatified beaver or the lowly cockroach?

Clockmakers everywhere are curious....

[manker]

Ah but other creatures re-shape the beauty which is already there. They dig a hole, or move a twig or build a dam. We create new materials from the raw. Ugly utilitarian materials.

Our dams are of concrete not of trees, our buildings are of steel, not of mud. We take the beautiful and uglify it to better suit our needs.

Our ancestors were part of nature, that is true. They revelled in the harmony and lived as one with the world, of which they were part. They celebrated the beauty and majesty and built their lives around it.

We have seperated ourselves. We cut nature down and polute it with the smoke from our pyres. We have turned against our mother and now despoil her, like errant children

Why would I expect accountants, clockmakers and telephone engineers to understand this.It is only a matter of opinion, if I knew an accountant he or she would live up to a rigid stereotype and attempt to use mathematics, no doubt, to explain it thusly:

In the beginning we can agree that all that existed was nature. We can also agree that nature is a positive thing, beauty is a positive thing but ugliness is a negative thing.

As time progresses then the varients of nature become more varied, twisted, even. This is a natural process some call evolution. Genes are added to, divided and multiplied in this process.

Given that a positive thing when multiplied, divided or added to can only remain positive in a world full of positives then the process that allowed modern man to exist must have been beautiful.

If all that exists is nature then all that man does is natural.

If we are to be as rigid as your first post dictates then we can conclude that:

All nature is beautiful => Ugliness cannot exist.




I do not subscribe to that.

[Everose]

All nature is beautiful, regardless of what it is. The only ugliness in our world is created by man.

That is not to say that man is only capable of creating ugliness. Simply that there would be no ugliness without us.




Or maybe the most dangerous ugly is not the ugly which man creates, it is the ugly that exists within man?

[manker]

Just one comma, come on it's not a lot to ask. It would make it much easier to read and understand. That took me three times and I'm not entirely convinced that I know precisely what you mean.Well, 'but' is a conjunction and was probably used in lieu of a comma, if I read it correctly.

I don't believe a comma is strictly necessary in that sentence.

You do appear to have a bit of a weak spot with the old comma-age, JP ;)

[Strangelove]

I find it to be an excellent tool, for assisting in the easity of communication. I am also a greater fan of however than but. The latter conveying more negative emulsion than the former.
Stops you Glossing over the facts...

[Everose]

I have added the comma, but am having a hard time doing away with the 'but.' (and no, dieting is not the answer) Any suggestions? :D

[Everose]

Thank you, JP, for your help. :)

[Everose]

:lol: I somehow knew you would say that. But of course, had to test to see if you were up to par. ;)

[hobbes]

JP you missed the mark on this one and it was right up your alley.

Take the kids out camping for a week in the deep woods. Enjoy suffering in the excessive cold/heat because you don't have appropriate walls to insulate you. Or perhaps a stiff breeze will simply blow your temporary domicile away.

You can spend your time revelling in the naturalistic joy of swatting at mosquitos and horse flies. Unless, of course, you spray man made chemicals on your skin to repel them.

Perhaps you can play "catch" with a group of hornets you didn't see, or that pesky bear that was attracted by your supplies.

Did little JP forget to seal up the food properly 3 days ago, well look at all those maggots won't you.

You will have plenty of time to sit and talk for hours with your loved ones, as you huddle together, picking lice and ticks off one another.

Nature offers no kindness and accepts no apologies.


Yes JP, nature can be beautiful, but only when you are observing her from a safe distance. I would recommend from your comfortable chair, in a temperature controlled, pest-free environment, with a tidy bottle of apple in your hand.

After a few such apples, one might begin to fantasize about the warm sunset in front of you. Maudlin thoughts might being to bloom, thoughts about a time when man and nature snuggled tightly together in blissful harmony.

You missed the call JP, this should have been titled:

Mother Nature: A bit h4r5h, is she not?

[Virtualbody1234]

Steel, concrete and even medicine and chemicals are all part of nature too.

In fact I would like for someone to find something that isn't from nature.

Who's to decide what's beautiful and what's ugly?

[Barbarossa]

Who's to decide what's beautiful and what's ugly?

Poll, anyone? :huh:

[hobbes]

hobbes

The fact of nature being harsh makes her no less beautiful. Makes her wonders no less staggering. Your points merely go to illustrate how we have removed ourselves from her. The fact that we need all of the artificialities you describe only serves to prove that we place walls between ourselves and her.


Yes, we do so for a damn good reason. The bitch is harsh. Were she not harsh, we would have done none of this.

Maggots consuming a rotting carass as flies swarm above and putrification fills the air is not beautiful.

[Virtualbody1234]

Virtualstuff

Steel and concrete are not part of nature. They are things we have created to shield ourselves from it. To build our ugliness and see that, rather than the awesome and frightening beauty all around us.
I disagree. We as human beings are part of nature and the materials we use are also part of nature. How is it possible for steel and concrete not to be part of nature? :unsure:

[Virtualbody1234]

I still disagree.

Next your going to tell me that a wheel isn't natural?

[Virtualbody1234]

Right. :dry:

[TheDave]

i dont understand.

are you saying nothing man made is beautiful?

[Strangelove]

No...

Just that man is capable of both, and everything thats ugly is man made...

Man is capable of great beauty too..

[hobbes]

No...

Just that man is capable of both, and everything thats ugly is man made...

Man is capable of great beauty too..

Hobbes :blushing:

Thanks, that was a very nice thing to say.

In more keeping with the drawing room, sometimes I wonder WHY I find something beautiful.

I am listening to Golden Heart by Mark Knopler and a certain guitar chord just sounded so pleasing and I don't know why my brain likes that one to the favor of so many others.

[hobbes]

I get the same with Mozart sometimes. To each their own.

I believe that music is the first language and is truly universal. It is the language of emotion. If a picture can paint a thousand words, then music can expose your soul.

Poor hobbes, always with the "why does my brain make me feel this way". There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. You are more than your brain hobbes, more than instinct and conditioned response. You are hobbes and we thank the Lord that it is so.

I think everyone would like to think so. Unfortunately, the more wisened I become, the more I realize that we are giving un-necessary import to our responses to stimuli simply because we have lost contact with our animal side.

A howling wolf causes others to howl, a chirping bird gets the tree in a frenzy, a singing voice causes us to join in.

I think music is the very language of emotions. Bird don't have a structured language for communication, but they can inflect their voices to convey emotion.

Certain sounds attract mates, while another causes all bird in the area to join in, in an attempt to locate everyone for migration or protection. When danger is around one chirp will scatter a flock.

So birds use song to convey emotion, not literal meaning. Humans do this as well when we talk to our babies. Mother sings to calm the child, she conveys safety in those soft sounds.

I think our creation of language has made use lose contact with our primitive use of song to convey emotion and we no longer recognize what it is there for. When then decide that it is something unique and special, a spiritual sense of appreciation.

We are just animals in clothes, I am afraid.

edit: animals use both song and sounds. I think sound is more functional, like a growl and song is more social, like howling or baying.

edit2: When I enjoy a song or sound, that is pleasing to my brain, I find this no more mystical than when my brain tells me that a certain food tastes or smells "yummy". Bacon smells fantatic because when you cook it, fat is released into the air and you can smell it. Our brains tell us we "like" the smell because fat is the most effiecient source of energy out there.

As you know there is no such absolute as a "good" smell or a "bad" smell, it is simply the hardwiring of the animal which receives the scent that tells us how to interpret it.

I think a good smell and a good sound are decided by our hardwiring. A primitive biochemical reaction.

[hobbes]

Our common sense limits us to explaining our experience based on that which we can measure, or dissect.

So what are we left with. Are we just supposed to make up some magic that we cannot prove nor disprove. Why throw ones self from the train of thought and reason.

Accepting magic causes the mind to atrophy, because it stops considering other possibilities.

The thing you must appreciate about us scientific chaps is that what we are saying is the opposite of what we want to believe.

Why can I not just accept the magic or choose a God, because my brain doesn't believe it. I can mouth the words, walk the walk, but when I try to sleep at night, my mind says, "You don't believe a word of it, and you know it". I cannot stop that voice any more than you can chose to lose your faith.


edit: edit2 was added to last post.

[hobbes]

Jp,

Understanding is a process.

Had Newton simply decided that God made apples fall, where would we be?

Newton said, "Hey, maybe there are principles that govern how objects behave"

Einstein said, "Great idea, but what would happen if we were to test the limits of your equations- you know, infinitely small mass and infinitely large velocities"- Out pops quantum mechanics.

Understanding is a road paved with epiphanies. We cannot warp to the end, but we must take it an idea at a time. But you will never get to the end if you don't start the journey.

[hobbes]

Ironically I say this at the behest of the apple.

Did Einstein not baulk at what quantum mechanics suggested.

Well, I think we all knew that "blondes have more fun", but even he was a bit taken aback when he was able to prove this mathematically.

[Strangelove]

Hobbes, nature is magic.

Tell me one thing more magical than life itself..

Then please try and describe it mathematically for me

[Biggles]

There is an old Celtic tale of a youth who having fallen asleep in an fairy glade has his eyes touched by one of the fairy people. From that moment he was unable to look at anything but that he saw the beauty in it.

Although this brought him joy it also set him apart from others and he was eventually spurned from the company of man. As time passed he could hardly tell if he had been given a gift or a curse.

The moral of the tale being that it is the condition of man to see his share of beauty and ugliness in life.

[Strangelove]

It was made into the movie Shallow Hall :lol:

[Biggles]

It was made into the movie Shallow Hall :lol:

:lol: Not one I have seen but perhaps proves the point that there are few new stories out there.

[hobbes]

Hobbes, nature is magic.

Tell me one thing more magical than life itself..

Then please try and describe it mathematically for me


How is nature magic? It seems rather harsh and predictable to me.

How is life magic? We are here, no one is sure how, but that does not mean by magic or God, we just don't understand. Life is also rather hard, many more downs than ups, even for the fortunate and we value it because there is no alternative.

Life is so hard for most that they create an ever loving God that will rescue them in the end, if they just believe.

Describe it mathematically? Huh?

I don't walk around moping, I'm a fairly happy person, I just attempt to look at things as honestly as possible.

I'm glad you think that everything is magic, but to me these statements sound jejune and I don't mean this in a rude way.

[Everose]

I like the part of this thread about music and emotions. As one who spends a lot of time thinking and reasoning, I often find it disconcerting when an emotion gets in the way with this. I try to reason that emotion away. But with music, I cannot do that.