My (overly)patriotic Post

Patriotism is much like drinking. People who drink more than I do are alcoholics and people who drink less need to loosen up a little.
Patriotism is a good thing, right? I for one would hate to be in a country where the populace resented/feared/opposed the governing body. It is a great luxury to be proud of where you are from. Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change.
It seems to me that whenever an American speaks out in favor of his country, he is given the label "blindly patriotic". Sort of unfairly puts the burden of proof on the accused.




Why is the American so poised to defend his country? Are we all walking, talking Bush drones. No, not really. In fact, Americans in general don't talk about politics. They talk about sports, the weather, and those Goddamned kids today. We are not, as a whole, interested in the subject. Why? Because although things are not perfect here, we really don't have to. Our president is our greatest source for parody, tune into SNL sometime. This is a good thing.
I learned in Spanish class how passionate South Americans are about politics and how it is a real nidus for discussion among friends. This does not reflect a fundamental difference between us and them, but rather for them, it is a matter of necessity.



Why do we come off so vehemently patriotic if we are not really interested in politics? Human nature, simple as that.
For example, if young EBP goes to his brother and complains that their f*cking sister is a bitch, because she told Mom about his stash and got him grounded, that is ok. There is the tacit understanding that although he is mad at her right now, he still loves her in that unique sibling/family unit way.
Young EBP then goes to buy some smokes. On the way to the store his sisters' boyfriend says, "I f*cked your sister, that bitch". EBP then procedes to go medievil on his ass. Why? These two have no such tacit agreement. Respect/love for the sister is not a given.


This is akin to Clocker and J2K4 in disagreement. They are unified by a pride in their country (the tacit understanding), but differ as to what course it should take to a successful future.
Compare this to J2K4 and EBP/Myfiles/Echidna. These outsiders they tend to post inflammatory anti-American government threads with regularity. Without a common understanding, J2's natural instincts are to protect his FAMILY (the US) as he/we have been disrespected.

So if non-Americans want to engage us in discussion, bring forth your concerns, not in the form of scathing articles, but with kidgloves. Take it from me, you can effect people more with sugar than vinegar (it took me some time to learn this). Otherwise it just appears that you are just trying to piss us off. Like I said before, pelting us with rocks from behind your bush. That is ok, every now and then, we all get really pissed on occassion, but try not to make it the rule.


Well, it's getting dark here, time to go blow something up!

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Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Compare this to J2K4 and EBP/Myfiles/Echidna. These outsiders they tend to post inflammatory anti-American government threads with regularity.[/b]

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I take great offence at that. Many aspects of US foreign policy bother me greatly, I admit it freely and I dont see anything wrong with expressing that view. What bothers me is that you can talk about things such as the US toppling democratically elected Gvts and installing dictators (Chile 1973) and all of a sudden theres a huge furore, like installing dictators is a god given right that the US holds.

I cant think of any other reason asides from blind patriotism or more accurately misguided patriotism as to why someone would defend this sort of thing.

Imho a real patriot would be putting as much pressure on his Gvt as possible to stop doing such things, not defending them.

I also assume you missed my approval of the US sending troops to Liberia. I may be opinionated, I will grant you that, but I am not a partisan.

As for being an outsider the reality of todays world is that US actions affect just about everyone. Thus I feel we &#39;outsiders&#39; have a right to debate them.

For what must be the umpteenth time, if you wish to criticise my Gvt for doing equally immoral things feel free. If your facts are correct and your reasoning logical I will most likely agree with you 100%.

Thats the difference between real patriotism and the "defend everything, accuse anyone who disagrees with US foreign policy as being anti-American and NEVER SURRENDER" attitude which I find both depressing and dangerous.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Without a common understanding, J2&#39;s natural instincts are to protect his FAMILY (the US) as he/we have been disrespected[/quote]

Its not a matter of anything as childish as "disrespecting" the USA. In all sincerity I am extremely worried about where US foreign policy is taking the world these days.

For your information I strongly admire the ideals the US is meant to stand for. Free speech, equality of opportunity, democracy etc. I am unable to see how I can be anti-American yet admire these qualities at the same time. Perhaps if these qualities were the basis of US foreign policy you would be criticising me for boring everyone to death with consistent praise for the USA.

I re-read my post after reading your reply.

I think my post reads exactly as I want it, and for the open-minded, it will be well received as an exercise in understanding human nature.

As for you, have a good night. Hope you re-read my post again sometime and think about my intent. A personal attack, an attempt to muzzle non-Americans, a denial to allow debate, no- not what it was about. In fact, it didn&#39;t attempt to justify or even support the actions of my government. It was simply an exercise in understanding what motivates people to respond in the manner they do.

If you thought my use of your name was a poke specifically at you, and this set you off, I apologise sincerely. You were just the last person to post in this forum.

I got the point of your post hobbes.

I feel that these issues are almost always tackled in a calm and collected manner, yet the same response always comes back at you no matter how delicately you put it.

"Your anti-American.. " over and over again till its imprinted on your brain.

Then the personal attacks begin etc etc

Im not saying this applies to you or to everyone on this forum but its definitely a common pattern in many of these threads. For some people "your anti-American" has almost become a mantra to ward off evil&#33;

I honestly dont think its related to the way the argument is put across, which as I understand it is the main thrust of the "what motivates people to respond in the manner they do" aspect of your post.

I hope you have a good night too :)

you should see our liberals :rolleyes:


"DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT&#33; THEY ARE ALL CROOKS&#33; BOOOOOO&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

what? me leave america? no f**king way&#33;"

:rolleyes:

hobbes, you pointed out the very reason i find reading here most interesting

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Originally posted by hobbes
Why is the American so poised to defend his country? Are we all walking, talking Bush drones. No, not really. In fact, Americans in general don&#39;t talk about politics. They talk about sports, the weather, and those Goddamned kids today. We are not, as a whole, interested in the subject. Why? Because although things are not perfect here, we really don&#39;t have to. Our president is our greatest source for parody, tune into SNL sometime. This is a good thing.

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i agree that patriotism [for lack of a better word, but passion for the &#39;place&#39; you&#39;re from] provides much of the spice in our babbles, and it just wouldn&#39;t be the same without it

it is mainly only to some of DarkBlizzard&#39;s and S&A&#39;s reflex reposts of my posts, which made no attempt to debase the posts claims but to broadly deride the post as biased beyond consideration, that i direct any imputation of &#39;blind&#39; patriotism
i&#39;m sorry if other more reflective americans got the impression that i felt you shared any myopia in your love of your home

it is that very passion underlying the posts of the likes of hobbes, clocker and the more revealing posts of j2k4 & S&A, which makes me value the opportunity to bounce words off all of your heads

you all have cogent reasons for why you value the things and ideas you support, and it[politics i guess?] is very under stated and seldom publicly discussed in the english speaking world, i have grown to feel this lack of political discussion is a deficit our cultures can little afford
our governments wield insane powers, and though we may be mere tax pumps, it is often said that the failing of the german people in the &#39;30s was that good people did and said nothing

the reason i participate here is specifically because i value the diversity of the opinions articulated here, if i am so anti-USA why do i want to read what americans have to say so regularly?
the premise for which this forum exists is software for which we are all said to be peers, and i want to know the opinions of my peers and the reasons they have for holding those opinions,
because we are all peers in much more tangible ways, we bleed, we laugh, we feel security, pain and fear and we are literate [more or less] :D
and also because these conversations [or arguments or debates] so rarely occur
this unlikely place gives us a chance to hear ordinary soapbox speakers across the globe

PS. i&#39;m too sleep deprived and will now cease rambling
shalom :sleeping:

I consider myself patriotic.

However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"

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Originally posted by Rat Faced@5 July 2003 - 18:02
I consider myself patriotic.

However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"

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Rat,

Who or what was that directed at? From the original post:

"Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change."

I think we have a good system of government. I believe in the principles on which my country was founded, I believe that I have the ability to work with system to make change when the actions of my government disappoint me and I certainly have the right to call "foul" when I see it."

You should watch Meet the Press. Five guys sit around and discuss how Bush is dealing with the current issues on national television. You would hardly call what comes from this show "blind patriotism" as it can be a bit h4r5h, but at the end of the day, they still go home proud to be Americans.

I fail to see how I can be seen as someone with his head in the sand.

And now that&#39;s enough about the USA for today. One would think it&#39;s the only country in the world. One day the USA could, if they play their cards right, become a very important country; if they don&#39;t spend all their money on weapons(of mass destruction).
One interesting point that came out of it all, that a common language, binds communities together; language a sort super glue. I read a report, that one day, the common language on Earth will be Chinese. So deflate your ego&#39;s come down to Earth and join us, the common people. Together we shall find a better way.

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Originally posted by denis123@6 July 2003 - 00:18
And now that&#39;s enough about the USA for today. One would think it&#39;s the only country in the world. One day the USA could, if they play their cards right, become a very important country; if they don&#39;t spend all their money on weapons(of mass destruction).
One interesting point that came out of it all, that a common language, binds communities together; language a sort super glue. I read a report, that one day, the common language on Earth will be Chinese. So deflate your ego&#39;s come down to Earth and join us, the common people. Together we shall find a better way.

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Quit pouring eggdrop soup on my tirade, errr, parade.


D-man, is this the thread you meant to post on? Seems that it would be more appropriate on another similar one.

Yes, I feel that it deserved to be posted on that similar one too. Perhaps you will copy it for me and post it there. I am not so handy with these controls yet.

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Originally posted by hobbes+5 July 2003 - 22:45--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 5 July 2003 - 22:45)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@5 July 2003 - 18:02
I consider myself patriotic.

However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"

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Rat,

Who or what was that directed at? From the original post:

"Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change."

I think we have a good system of government. I believe in the principles on which my country was founded, I believe that I have the ability to work with system to make change when the actions of my government disappoint me and I certainly have the right to call "foul" when I see it."

You should watch Meet the Press. Five guys sit around and discuss how Bush is dealing with the current issues on national television. You would hardly call what comes from this show "blind patriotism" as it can be a bit h4r5h, but at the end of the day, they still go home proud to be Americans.

I fail to see how I can be seen as someone with his head in the sand. [/b][/quote]
It wasnt aimed at anyone.

Its just the way "I" feel.

I know that you dont have your "head in the sand"...Ive seen you critical of your government.

Indeed, ive seen most of the US contingent (including S&A) critisise the US government....so please, just because you feel you are under attack by some, do not include me in THAT party ;)

I am also not attacking you Hobbes. Not in the least. The truth is more important than the facts.

No offense taken from either party, but tonight, a party there must be&#33;

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Originally posted by hobbes+5 July 2003 - 22:45--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 5 July 2003 - 22:45)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by Rat Faced@5 July 2003 - 18:02
I consider myself patriotic.

However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"

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Rat,

Who or what was that directed at? From the original post:

"Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change."

I think we have a good system of government. I believe in the principles on which my country was founded, I believe that I have the ability to work with system to make change when the actions of my government disappoint me and I certainly have the right to call "foul" when I see it." ... I fail to see how I can be seen as someone with his head in the sand. [/b]

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@Rat Faced :: i nearly included you as an example of a patriot on the board, yet had avoided it as i see you expressing a more complex identity, involving the relations of groups within the nation you&#39;re part of. i value your perspective being about the board

i find myself feeling great pride for the land i&#39;m from while often abhorring the persons and actions of the nation[government] which occupies it

@hobbes :: it is precisely because our systems provide for us to express our views
and that democratic systems, such as we live under, demand criticism and debate to enhance and ensure their good function.
this is why i try to get americans to tell me how they feel about their nations actions abroad
[israel has been trying to find security through aggression for decades, and now the USA acts as if it&#39;s to try a similar experiment :: the stakes are enormous for almost all the world and yet many americans often refuse to discuss the situation beyond refusing to discuss it]
it makes being interested in your opinions a frustrating hit and miss affair
isn&#39;t the price of freedom supposed to be eternal vigilance
<!--QuoteBegin-http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn
vigilance

n 1: the process of paying close and continuous attention [syn: watchfulness, alertness] 2: vigilant attentiveness; "he keeps a weather eye open for trouble" [syn: watchfulness, weather eye]
[/quote] so i keep trying

anyway curiosity killed the cat i suppose
i don&#39;t openly endorse any party [apart from the greens, who&#39;re internationalist rather than nationalist] so party on any old which way :beerchug:
just wanting to hear what some ordinary stateside perspectives are, &#39;cause you&#39;re there. [and i know that the media can&#39;t be relfecting your opinions, and that george isn&#39;t speaking for all of you]

I editted this simply because it unintentionally came across arrogant in a backhanded way.



I am the king of typos, all bow down to em&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

I wish I could share your thoughts Hobbes

At tha moment I can Honestly say that I am anti American they are putting my future at risk and they need to be stopped.

There is only one real threat to world safety and america is it.This isn&#39;t a global critism of all Americans but as a country derspise it
I also despise Tony blaire and our government for getting involved with America over this.
America But out and leave the world in relative peace.
I am not scared to say this and I don&#39;t care if you think I am speeking out of turn but I could not be an American I would be a traitor.

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Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 09:05
I wish I could share your thoughts Hobbes

At tha moment I can Honestly say that I am anti American they are putting my future at risk and they need to be stopped.

There is only one real threat to world safety and america is it.This isn&#39;t a global critism of all Americans but as a country derspise it
I also despise Tony blaire and our government for getting involved with America over this.
America But out and leave the world in relative peace.
I am not scared to say this and I don&#39;t care if you think I am speeking out of turn but I could not be an American I would be a traitor.

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Interesting worldview, Neil.

I&#39;ve stated before that I think that the US has been overly aggressive &#39;projecting&#39; our agenda on the world stage. I&#39;d like to see us become more selective and cooperate better with other potential allies.
But we could withdraw altogether as you suggest- after all we do have pressing concerns on the homefront that could easily absorb all of our resources.

Cheerio&#33;

BTW- let us know how you decide to deal with North Korea, Iran, Syria, Libya, et al....

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Originally posted by hobbes@5 July 2003 - 21:45
I editted this simply because it unintentionally came across agrogant in a backhanded way.

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Damn Hobbes.

This post must be approaching the record for most major revisions ever&#33;
Every time I start to formulate a comment it has morphed again.

I&#39;ve never thought you were agrogant.

Shall we talk about boobies now?

Clocker I don&#39;t know how to deal with the countries and neither does America
That&#39;s why it&#39;s absolutely imperitive they stop before they drag the entire world into a conflict nobody wants

up until the twin towers my fiancee and I had an ambition to emigrate to America but unfortunately those events forced us to have a close look at our inteended home and nation.

We didn&#39;t like what we found, there is a lot at fault with our country .
But the things that are wrong with America are much more in number and far more extreme than Britain so I think now we will probable live in Holland if they will have us and my wife to be agrees.

I just wish as has been stated so many times that America would look to it&#39;s core values and fix itself.

If I have insulted any individual with my view then that was not my intention but unfortunately that has to be a concequence of such a position.

Remember I don&#39;t care if America likes/respects/listens to me
and isn&#39;t it a shame that America cannot share my ambivolance and respect peoples right to not support it. Look at france labelled traitors and cowards just because they had the sense to avoid a conflict that was nothing but trouble.

Will America give Iraq back to it&#39;s people or will the UN have to go in and free them from American Dictatorship?

Edit PS. I concider myself patriotic to britain even though I chose to leave and if I become a dutchman then I&#39;ll be patriotic to two countries and deal with the dilema&#39;s that throws at me.

Edit : Inclusion of Becka.

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Originally posted by clocker+6 July 2003 - 16:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 6 July 2003 - 16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@5 July 2003 - 21:45
I editted this simply because it unintentionally came across agrogant in a backhanded way.

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Damn Hobbes.

This post must be approaching the record for most major revisions ever&#33;
Every time I start to formulate a comment it has morphed again.

I&#39;ve never thought you were agrogant.

Shall we talk about boobies now? [/b][/quote]
Hobbes
Why not delete it all and type "Does not apply anymore"

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Originally posted by clocker+6 July 2003 - 16:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 6 July 2003 - 16:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Neil__@6 July 2003 - 09:05
I wish I could share your thoughts Hobbes

At tha moment I can Honestly say that I am&nbsp; anti American they are putting my future at risk and they need to be stopped.

There is only one real threat to world safety and america is it.This isn&#39;t a global critism of all Americans but as a country derspise it
I also despise Tony blaire and our government for getting involved with America over this.
America But out and leave the world in relative peace.
I am not scared to say this and I don&#39;t care if you think I am speeking out of turn but I could not be an American I would be a traitor.

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Interesting worldview, Neil.

I&#39;ve stated before that I think that the US has been overly aggressive &#39;projecting&#39; our agenda on the world stage. I&#39;d like to see us become more selective and cooperate better with other potential allies.
But we could withdraw altogether as you suggest- after all we do have pressing concerns on the homefront that could easily absorb all of our resources.

Cheerio&#33;

BTW- let us know how you decide to deal with North Korea, Iran, Syria, Libya, et al.... [/b][/quote]
Why not do a little less protecting our agenda and a little more of what America does best and thats protecting the world agenda.

The world needs a powerful nation like America to look out for the interests of us all as a whole and well be right there with them.

But what Bush and America is doing is acting like the biggest kid in the playgroung and using that to frighten the youngsters. We all need America and others to protect everyones interests not threaten the whole world order to protect itself.

Play fair America and give Iraq it&#39;s ball back.

Neil

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Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 10:02
Clocker I don&#39;t know how to deal with the countries and neither does America
That&#39;s why it&#39;s absolutely imperitive they stop before they drag the entire world into a conflict nobody wants

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It seems to me that conflict is exactly what many of the fundamentalist Islamic states want.

Without the threat of retribution nations such as Iran and Libya would be far more overtly aggressive than they are at present.

I would be all for the US taking a less prominant role in the deterrence of this aggression.

Perhaps Camaroon will step up to the plate, eh?

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Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 16:02
I think now I will probable live in Holland if they will have me.

... if I become a dutchman then I&#39;ll be patriotic to two countries and deal with the dilema&#39;s that throws at me.

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Well Neil it&#39;s not easy to come and live in the Netherlands at the moment. To become a dutchman you wil have to learn the language; a new law was introduced in april. You will need to be resident for 5years, find work, (not a good time) and accomodation (very difficult). If you have friends here that will be very helpfull.

But if you like the dutch culture it is a relaxed place to live. In any case succes.


Patriotic to 2 countries? I don&#39;t know if that&#39;s possible.


Nigel123

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Originally posted by clocker+6 July 2003 - 17:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker &#064; 6 July 2003 - 17:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Neil__@6 July 2003 - 10:02
Clocker I don&#39;t know how to deal with the countries and neither does America
That&#39;s why it&#39;s absolutely imperitive they stop before they drag the entire world into a conflict nobody wants

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It seems to me that conflict is exactly what many of the fundamentalist Islamic states want.

Without the threat of retribution nations such as Iran and Libya would be far more overtly aggressive than they are at present.

I would be all for the US taking a less prominant role in the deterrence of this aggression.

Perhaps Camaroon will step up to the plate, eh? [/b][/quote]
Couldn&#39;t agree more if America worked with the UN and used it&#39;s post twin towers position to demand help then we would have given them as much as the want in a considered fasion and take a systematic approach. think about it rationally and if then a fight is needed give them one
I never denied that things HAD to be done for the twin towers and people had to come to account and soon.

But we could just wait and in 50 years and no more oil then the islamic nations wont have any more power over the world and will be forced to take a reduction in their world pecking order.

this is a major problem to world safety as are korea and others but poking them with sticks can&#39;t be a good idea.

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Originally posted by Neil__@6 July 2003 - 11:05

But we could just wait and in 50 years and no more oil then the islamic nations wont have any more power over the world and will be forced to take a reduction in their world pecking order.

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Firstly Neil, I question that in 50 years there will be no more oil.
But, let&#39;s grant that it comes to pass that way.

Hasn&#39;t it occured to you that the Middle Eastern countries may do that which historically every country with dwindling natural resources has done?
Namely, find the nearest weak neighbor and try to appropriate their resources.
Nations do not go gently into the night.

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Nations do not go gently into the night.

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your point is only valid if you believe their is no other energy for us.
We need oil because the alternative means massive infrostructural changes worldwide but we can do it and why dont we spend the time getting Nuclear Fusion sorted once and for all and we got all the energy we need trouble is batteries aint good enough yet to take enough charge to drive far so we need the oil.

And that&#39;ll not change for a while.

does that mean fight to the death.
Rather you than me.
I&#39;d rather wait until they develope a better battery and charge my car at home than die in some mad max hell just to keep my Buick on the road.

You can fight all you like but MY lights aint going out
and it dont matter I was never scared of the dark anyway.

Neil

Edit : Quote

I think you misread my post.
I said that should it come to pass that in 50 years oil was no longer a viable source of income for those nations that they would find another way of acquiring income.
Historically, this has taken the form of annexing more land from others weaker than you and exploiting it.
It is conceivable of course, that Iran or Libya would find another way to survive. They could do as India has and export intellect and technology.
They could emulate Japan and become manufacturing experts.
Neither possibility strikes me as very likely.

I didn&#39;t miisread your post both times now.
you spoke very imotively of nations going into the night and the fight for their energy.

And I replied energy crisis what energy crisis.

I think I understand what you were saying.

Neil