Whoever conquers Pain and Fear...

"Life is pain, life is fear and man is unhappy. Now all is pain and fear. Now man loves life because he loves pain and fear. And that's how he's been made. Now life is given in exchange for pain and fear, and that's the basis of the whole deception. Now man is still not what he should be. There will be a new man, happy and proud. Whoever doesn't care whether he lives or doesn't live, he will be the new man. Whoever conquers pain and fear, he himself will become God. And that other God will no longer be."


Thoughts? Is the model presented even viable? Or are we simply to take Kirillov (the character who says this) as delusional?

(taken from Besy (aka Demons/Devils/The Possessed..) by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, p. 128).

I have a though. You're out of your gourd. True Story.

Pain is love according to Ja Rule

imho , without pain you dont evolve . its what you learn from your past fears and pain thats makes you go beyond

well without struggle there is no evolution, then again it depends if someone wants to evolve or not

It could be read of in tems of mankind's ego. Pain and fear being the rejection of the present moment. Conqueroring pain and fear may be simply accepting the "what is" and living in "being" rather than subjectivity.

The "caring", in this context, could be the worrying about our impermanence or the impermamence of pleasure/love/beauty as a stable thing, in a world that is unstable by nature and constantly changing.

The relief could be in accepting the subjectivity of the world, removing the "model of self" dependant on it all as a possessive force on our minds, dettaching from it accordingly, and then reattaching the perception of all the subjectivity as our playground. Without rejecting the present moment we experience the world we create rather than the context or storyline of past and future.

The pain and fear may subside and then the love/pleasure/beauty is experienced as far as our internal activation of it can process, without the grasping or need to pin it on things. The beauty of each moment is then held as our ability or art of perceiving it. "Beauty in the eye of the beholder" becomes a way of functioning rather than an intellectual note of logic. The world we are talking about is our creation.. or mental interpretation.. it is afterall waves of energy, not a each individual's construct of a tree falling in the woods.

The metafore of God in this is clumsy as it's a word overused and implores use of the reader's own meaning of it. It could be that by seeing the subjectivity and dettaching yet embracing it for what it is, we become "the mind of god".. or "the gep of chebus" depending on where you wish your metafore. The piece may simply be predicting a future evolution of mankind as dissolving the ego.

Dostoyevski? In the Lounge?

This deserves a :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy

it is afterall waves of energy, not a each individual's construct of a tree falling in the woods.

---

Could you elaborate on this point?

Have I come to the wrong room?

This isn't the usual level of Googling I expect here..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Flying Cow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy

it is afterall waves of energy, not a each individual's construct of a tree falling in the woods.

---

Could you elaborate on this point?

---

the world is atoms held together by energy, they themselves consisting of only energy. I thnks that's how it goes, and there's a proper scientific explanation out there but I'm not up on it.

The tree is a construct of this energy in a form that we see as a thing. From our viewpoint, we can see it as a collection of items that compose a tree such as its branches, as a thing on its own, as the part of the forest, or as part of a green part of the globe.

We become limited by the boundaries of our human percepton to see its ultimately just energy and so see "things". Our perception of time shapes how solid we see these things.. if sped up we'd see a rise and fall of mass.

The sensory input of these things is alsoin interpreted internally into what we actually percieve. Colour doesnt exist other than as shapes that reflect light.. there is no red or blue as we see it in the actual world.. its interpretation. The same with sound.. its waves not "noises" as we come think about.

Then, our psychology of how it fits into our world construct. We lable things to construct the world and make sense of it. There's a saying something like "teach the child the word for a bird, and he will never see it again" .. he will see the construct - the labeling, the fitting of it into her patterns of understanding. The actual sense of what it is is now context ridden based on her understanding and relationship to it from the current worldview, and how as humans its effects us.

Socially, the tree is a different presence in our world if we live in the forest and are interweaved with it as part of our daily use, or if we live in teh city and see it as something we visit or notice as being there at times.. with a different value. The person you love is not the same model in your head as that person would be in mine. etc..

The world as we percieve it, is basically our internal creation.

In the context of my post, perception is our interface with subjectivity applied to the objectivity. To apply meaning to the things we come across.. to apply beauty/love/pleasure to it.. even to the sensation in our bodies, is to apply subjective understanding. To then build this into constructs such as need, want, or value is to further internally create the subjective world.. not externally seeing what is.

This isn't to say there is no use or valid role for subjectivity. It gives us the chance to paint the perceptions into forms to activate the beauty inside us we have the opportunity to create in "our world". You can see beauty in the tree, that beauty is inside you.. in your "beauty receptor" or interpreter or wtv.. it doesnt mean that sensation or creation doesnt exist because its not physical.

With the evolution of mankind into enlightenment, it may be that we harness the subjectivity. We become the masters of the mind as a tool rather than stuck feeling we are the mind, or owned by it. We will seek inner peace in how we hold the world, instead of outer peace in trying to control it or make it all "right" according to what construct we hold at the time. We will inteface with the world in the peace of suitable dettachment - not being swamped by it, to continue to function and procreate.

It may be that we just can't perceive the tree.. and it will always be subjectivity, but to know it as such may be part of the shift. To then have this realisation as a fundemental part of our interface with world, may also shape how we develop the ego, it's attachments and demands. The "things" of the world take on a new position in the mind, as do the values and relationships to them. At basic perception it may be that we don't change how we use it drastically, but attachment to fear, processing of "pain", and then the opportunity to do this with serenity and beauty... if you awaken in that world, you will live the live of a true flying cow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Have I come to the wrong room?

This isn't the usual level of Googling I expect here..

---

heya RF :D .. in my mind you are "rf".. but internally held as a "rrf" like a barking sound of a dog who fetches the newspaper and makes my dinner :wub:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Have I come to the wrong room?

This isn't the usual level of Googling I expect here..

---

heya RF :D .. in my mind you are "rf".. but internally held as a "rrf" like a barking sound of a dog who fetches the newspaper and makes my dinner :wub:

---

Now THAT'S more like the thinking processes I'm used to here, makes me feel much more at home.

Would you like your tea now sir?

Can I have mine as well, with some milk. Hold the sugar.

I'd rather hold the Milk :naughty:

I've none left at the moment; it's been one of those days...