The Welfare State

[MagicNakor]

Men can't have babies. Women don't need to have sex to get pregnant.
First things first.

Anything else?

No one yet has said anything as to how it would be wrong for women to take the shot.

I was unaware that the majority of women on welfare were also participating in in vitro fertilization. Or perhaps there have been a spike of virgin births? Or is it merely a case of what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

Aside from infringing on a woman's right to say what can or cannot go into her own body, there are several medical issues with hormonal birth control. Pills tend to have fewer issues than shots.

[Busyman™]

Mmk, then the above in bold isn't adressing anything that I've said. Cool.

Now how is it that government is taking control of a person's life merely due to a shot. What about the doling out of money?

A person certainly has the individual autonomy of getting a welfare check.

Would the individual have anything to say in the matter? No, because money is power. You'd effectively get one class of people denied to take part of the most humane/natural activity - reproduction - simply because the people in power say so. If you read my posts, I believe that there are more to individual marginality than simply individual differences. If you don't want people to reproduce under marginalized conditions, you'd better make sure you provide for the lesser "classes" by raising their standard of living.

It sounds to me like you are cool with generational welfare then. Classes of people are not being denied reproduction. Where'd you get that from? Those women, while receiving welfare money would get the shot. Marginalized conditions is not synonymous with welfare recipients. Get it through your head. My mother never went on welfare but she worked her ass off under marginalized conditions. She is better off now and so am I.

In the same vein, It's not too difficult to grasp that the groups in power have much to lose by granting marginalized groups the same means to success.

Keep in mind, I'm not advocating illegitimate welfare, but from a point of view that people on welfare generally have a valid reason, society obviously needs to provide effective means to solve those reasons if it are to oppose welfare checks to the needing.

Yeah, one of those reasons is the fault or inaction of the individual on welfare.

What I'm hinting at, is how you look at the differences in society. Is it a, more or less conscious, attempt by people in power to secure their own stature - or is it the marginalized individual's failure to raise their living standard to the same level? With that question in mind, remember that the earth would not be able to support every human beeing with that same quality of life....

Is that to say there isn't a job out there for everyone? Mmk, I agree. Of course not everyone can have a quarter-acre and a simgle family home too.

So, again with the large picture of things, I'm not simply commenting on your question of birth control shots per se. Such a proposal is too far out there to even be considered by any group in power, given the massive uprising it would have (I'd hope).

Yup, the large picture of things is that people should help themselves. By no means do I advocate getting rid of welfare. However, the way you talk is to shout at government for the inaction of those needing help.

I can tell you that right now in DC, for instance, people actually flock there from other areas because of it's welfare program.

I already know of a bigger picture regarding folks on welfare. Things like the influx of drugs are part of it. However, my way addresses the issue of removing a barrier that holds many back from bettering themselves and is actually pretty easy to implement. Your way simply is to simply allow generational welfare to continue at it's current state and pace....blame government for most of it as if the jobs are simply nonexistent.

Either my scope on the matter is one thing at a time. Government should have the right to require a shot to women before receiving welfare. Government will sure as hell will have to pay for that baby. If she does not want to receive welfare, government does not require a shot.

I don't see what the issue is. The thing you've said that addressed that (in red) has been proven wrong. You talk this "because the people in power say so" while at the same time asking the people in power for money then that the recipients are being marginalized.

[Busyman™]

Men can't have babies. Women don't need to have sex to get pregnant.
First things first.

Anything else?

No one yet has said anything as to how it would be wrong for women to take the shot.

I was unaware that the majority of women on welfare were also participating in in vitro fertilization.

Me too. Where'd you get that from.

Or perhaps there have been a spike of virgin births?

When, in B.C.?

Or is it merely a case of what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

The goose can have baby, and in this case, the gander can't. The goose also receives medical dispensation to have the baby (doctor gets paid). The goose also recives dispensation for caring of the baby. Oh and I forgot, dispensation gets started in the first place 'cause the goose had the baby.....no matter who is caring for her/him.

Aside from infringing on a woman's right to say what can or cannot go into her own body, there are several medical issues with hormonal birth control. Pills tend to have fewer issues than shots.

Those issues would be addressed just like they currently are. By a doctor. It is not infringing on her right. She can refuse. I thought I said that already.

[MagicNakor]

I was unaware that the majority of women on welfare were also participating in in vitro fertilization.

Me too. Where'd you get that from.

Or perhaps there have been a spike of virgin births?

When, in B.C.?

From:

Men can't have babies. Women don't need to have sex to get pregnant.

You want women to be rendered temporarily infertile so they can receive welfare. Why not have it both ways? Babies can't be created without viable sperm.

[ahctlucabbuS]

Yup, the large picture of things is that people should help themselves. By no means do I advocate getting rid of welfare. However, the way you talk is to shout at government for the inaction of those needing help.

I'd guess you'd only need to step out your front door to see proof of the inaction in action.

I'm not cool with generational welfare, and I don't believe it works that way (for the most part). There are other ways to handle it than involuntary birth control. If you read my post, I'm saying society have a responsibility to better the conditions, and to provide more opportunities for people to better themselves.

If your mother worked under difficult times, more power to her.

Marginalized conditions is not synonymous with welfare recipients. Get it through your head. My mother never went on welfare but she worked her ass off under marginalized conditions. She is better off now and so am I.

True.
Welfare recipients are however marginalized, given their previous history which proceeded their need for welfare (physical/psychological illness etc. etc.). People on welfare are further living marginalized simply by beeing poor. Under such circumstances I'd guess it would be quite hard to advance in life, which as I see it one should work to better. Of course there are people who will never be able to work, people I believe, society have a duty to take care of (and no, not a duty to take care of their fertility).

I don't see what the issue is. The thing you've said that addressed that (in red) has been proven wrong. You talk this "because the people in power say so" while at the same time asking the people in power for money then that the recipients are being marginalized.

I don't see what you are getting at. The part in red is how I picture it would get if birth control were implemented. So, yes, you would get one class of people denied reproduction; people on welfare

As long as many people live of substantian wealth, money they will never ever have use for - then that society, which foster such hording of resources, have a duty to take care of people at the bottom. The earth can't foster every one of us living as large as the few.

Did you also know that capitalism works best under conditions of some unemployment, working as a buffer against increased wages? Needless to say there will always be people at the bottom, and a society which foster such should take care of those, it in fact, are dependent upon. So capitalism must take its share of responsibility then - you can't simply reduce the issue completely to the individual.


Edit, I can't agree more regarding abuse of the system. Obviously if enough people abused it - it would break. Just thought I'd make that clear once and for all.

[Cheese]

I think it needs to be pointed out that there is no magical shot that would safely prevent pregnancy and it is unlikely there will be one anytime soon. The depo injection (which I assume people are thinking of here) is not suitable for all women, has lots of fun side effects and should only be taken for a limited period of time (around 5 years). What happens if someone who is genuine seeks welfare but has been on the depo-injection for an extended period of time? Also, the depo injection is not 100% guaranteed to prevent pregnancy.

The pill wouldn't work as someone could just "accidentally" forget to take it if they wanted to "accidentally" get pregnant. The coil wouldn't work either, it can be removed. As it stands, the only 100% method to prevent pregnancies would be to administer hysterectomies to all the women on welfare. Obviously this is not reversable once she manages to get a job.

Even if someone did invent a magic shot, would a woman be able to object to the shot due to their religion? If so, then I predict a sudden surge in convertions to the Catholic church. I'm sure there are numerous other exceptions that could be exploited by those that abuse the system but would have to be in place.

I'd also predict a rise in sexually transmitted infections within the welfare class if this rather silly idea was ever actually implemented.

[ahctlucabbuS]

Good point.

[Mr JP Fugley]

Good points.

Agreed, but not quite an excellent post.

[Zequabie]

The thing is life is like a game, there's competitors. Inevidably there's going to be winners and losers. No one or the other. The Government enables these people by giving them the necessities of life, with-out labor and not knowing when to stop the wagon, so to speak. The real messed-up part of it all is that most of these people don't seem to have any self respect or pride (in a being too proud sense) for that matter. It's like they don't want better for themselves and there family. Speaking of family, most of these people or not educated at all. Don't know much about life (I know that's a broad-statement but I grew up in the ghetto so I kinda know what I talking about), so what are they suppose to teach there kids. Work etiquette? lol. What ends up happening is that the child becomes a teen. Having no structure or discipline and start wanting what mom or dad can't provide an start on the journey of crime-life.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to handle this issue, I mean let's be rational. It's human nature the world is filled with greedy, selfish people. It's hard to work around it.

[j2k4]

The thing is life is like a game, there's competitors. Inevidably there's going to be winners and losers. No one or the other. The Government enables these people by giving them the necessities of life, with-out labor and not knowing when to stop the wagon, so to speak. The real messed-up part of it all is that most of these people don't seem to have any self respect or pride (in a being too proud sense) for that matter. It's like they don't want better for themselves and there family. Speaking of family, most of these people or not educated at all. Don't know much about life (I know that's a broad-statement but I grew up in the ghetto so I kinda know what I talking about), so what are they suppose to teach there kids. Work etiquette? lol. What ends up happening is that the child becomes a teen. Having no structure or discipline and start wanting what mom or dad can't provide an start on the journey of crime-life.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to handle this issue, I mean let's be rational. It's human nature the world is filled with greedy, selfish people. It's hard to work around it.

Important points, well-presented.

Whatever focus exists is very narrow; possibilities are limited, action is ineffectual.

Those on the outside console themselves with the existence of government-administered "benefits" and strive mightily to keep their hands clean and themselves safe.