Poll question #1 about Islam

[j2k4]

Okay.

Let's call them Hezbollah.

Not Lebanese, not terrorists.

What are they now?

If we desire peace, how should we view Hezbollah?
It doesn't matter how it's put, what reasoning, what justification, however it's said, people tend to not support those that are killing them. They tend to blame the people killing them. Who started what is of little importance, all they know is someone is killing them.
If we can, for the sake of argument, stipulate that those who are religiously extreme and launching rockets occupy a segment at one end of the behavioral spectrum, and those who are religiously extreme but do not launch rockets are at the proximate midpoint of that spectrum, who, if anybody, resides at the other extreme?

Put it this way:

If some of a given group agitate for war, that is an extreme position.

Reason insists that the opposite extreme be peopled by those who agitate for peace.

And I don't buy that you don't buy the idea of a Muslim whose belief in peaceful co-existence is extreme, or fanatical.

I ask again; do you know any of them?

I sure don't buy that "spectrum" reasoning.



Mainstream islam does not "agitate for war", being silent (or at least not out on the streets protesting) does not equal supporting extremist. Granted they may support the idea but not the method.

Your opinion I suspect is based on what you are told about islam, and I have to say it is rare to see anything in the media that is not negative and concentrating on extremists. We are bombarded with images and commentary about Bin Laden. We are shown snippets of Mid eastern leaders criticising the US..... What do you think they are seeing of us? do they see commentators giving balanced views or do they see Bush calling them evil? do they see pat robinson or falwell calling islam the devils religion?

I suspect they only see our extremists spouting anti islamic views, and I suspect we are basically seeing their extremist.

There are terrorist that happen to be muslims. This doesn't mean that all muslims are terrorists. There are terrorists that happen to be christians. This doesn't mean that christians are terrorists.

Being an extremist is by definition "out of the norm".....you do know that...don't you

So essentially, according to your parsing of the situation, there are great hidden (silent) masses of Islamic people whose mood and opinion you've managed to gauge as neutral at worst, unfanatical at best, who will stand and be counted (of course!) at the proper time?

How do you arrive at that?

Do you have special powers, at all, at all.

[Rat Faced]

I think whatever is bred from or by the current situation(s), including Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Aqsa, as well as Iran and Syria, et.al., will be termed a Holy War by those who foment it.

Your average Muslim (however you might qualify that) seems inclined to go along (or, at least, not object), according to extant polls as well as learned opinion, and, in the case of open and wide-spread conflict, cannot be firmly counted in opposition to the extremist arms of that religion.

I don't think it is adequate to say merely that "I don't know any Muslims who feel that way"; that literally points up the anecdotal weakness of the statement, and because none of us know all Muslims, do we?

In the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, I believe this is a legitimate concern, vid, and I make no apology for your perception that this poll is leading.

I am honestly interested in thoughts on the question I have presented.

Amazing how more and more of them are "inclined to go along with it" the longer that the situation re: The way things are happening, doesn't change huh?

By the way:

Hezbollah are secular, belonging to the Shi'ite, with a different belief system to the Sunni's.

Hamas are non secular, belonging to the Sunni.

Many Sunni's class Shi'ites as heretics and not true Muslims. Much the same way as many Christian Churches dont class Mormons as Christians.

There are many more sects of Islam..

Exactly what flavour of Islam are you saying is Fundamentalist?

I mean, when i think of Christian Fundamentalism, i dont think of the Anglicans... I think of Southern Baptists... I dont just label all Christians 'mentalists.

[vidcc]

So essentially, according to your parsing of the situation, there are great hidden (silent) masses of Islamic people whose mood and opinion you've managed to gauge as neutral at worst, unfanatical at best, who will stand and be counted (of course!) at the proper time?

How do you arrive at that?

Do you have special powers, at all, at all.
And by what standard does your insight have credibility? perhaps you have special powers

Have you any idea how many muslims there are in the world? and of those how many are terrorists?
Ordinary muslims may stand up and be counted, Which side they will take is another matter. And for whatever reason.
Do you accept that it may be possible that they would stand up to protect their land? or could it only be to support religious extremists.
Ordinary people also want to keep their families safe, ordinary people stand up when they have to, mostly people want to live their lives and don't want to get involved...


As I said if you stuck to extremism you had a case with some foundations, but you couldn't do that.

[Biggles]

I vote Yes but then I do not think Fundamentalist Islam is necessarily a mainstream view. There are Christian "end timers" who get a little thrill every time they think Armageddon is about to happen but again they do not represent mainstream Christianity.

It behoves our politicians to ensure that few do not end up in a position the exert leverage on the many. Unfortunately I do not believe cluster bombs and F16 fly-overs are appropriate means to that end but then what do I know.

Syria is not fundamentalist in outlook but they are still sorely pissed about the Golan Heights and bucket loads of Palestinian refugees. With Iran and Syria (and Venezuala for that matter) it is my enemy's enemy is my friend.

[j2k4]

Amazing how more and more of them are "inclined to go along with it" the longer that the situation re: The way things are happening, doesn't change huh?

By the way:

Hezbollah are secular, belonging to the Shi'ite, with a different belief system to the Sunni's.

Hamas are non secular, belonging to the Sunni.

Many Sunni's class Shi'ites as heretics and not true Muslims. Much the same way as many Christian Churches dont class Mormons as Christians.

There are many more sects of Islam..

Exactly what flavour of Islam are you saying is Fundamentalist?

I mean, when i think of Christian Fundamentalism, i dont think of the Anglicans... I think of Southern Baptists... I dont just label all Christians 'mentalists.

Isn't it amazing, then, given all of their differences (which differences only really exist between them), they are so unified in action, purpose, target and method?

They are all of a piece, and we need not differentiate between them.

Have you any idea how many muslims there are in the world? and of those how many are terrorists?
Ordinary muslims may stand up and be counted, Which side they will take is another matter. And for whatever reason.
Do you accept that it may be possible that they would stand up to protect their land? or could it only be to support religious extremists.
Ordinary people also want to keep their families safe, ordinary people stand up when they have to, mostly people want to live their lives and don't want to get involved...

Oh, sure; they may eventually "stand up and be counted"...forgive my impatience, but what would you regard as an appropriate prompt for this to occur?

In simpler terms, what in the ever-loving blue fuck are they waiting for? Nukes?

As I said if you stuck to extremism you had a case with some foundations, but you couldn't do that.

I don't have the slightest idea what that means.

[Rat Faced]

The trouble is that the methodology being employed is making more and more of them stand up and be counted... against us.

When Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, as an example, the Lebanese and most Arab nations condemned their actions.

Now, they're hero's all over the Middle East.

Nice strategy.

[j2k4]

The trouble is that the methodology being employed is making more and more of them stand up and be counted... against us.

When Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, as an example, the Lebanese and most Arab nations condemned their actions.

Now, they're hero's all over the Middle East.

Nice strategy.

Sounds to me like their stances were adopted cheaply and then dumped for their inconvenience.

Listen:

Hezbollah's catalyzing action involved an incursion over the U.N.-approved border, which Israel had been observing, and for what it's worth, Hezbollah can rather easily be construed as having co-opted Lebanon in so doing.

That Israel has since smacked them around since then doesn't change the fact, and this ill-advised argument over "proportionality" doesn't get Hezbollah off the hook.

That's all there is to that particular argument.

[Rat Faced]

As the AFP reported, "According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aitaa al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning." And the French news site www.VoltaireNet.org reiterated the same account on June 18, "In a deliberated way, [Israel] sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aitaa al-Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, taking two prisoners."

The Associated Press ( http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html) departed from the official version as well. "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them," reported Joseph Panossian for AP on July 12. "The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity."
And the Hindustan Times ( http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm) on July 12 conveyed a similar account:

"The Lebanese Shi'ite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. 'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said. 'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border."

Really... depends whether you believe the official Israeli version, or the version that the Journalists had reported before that version of events was put out when the operation went tits up, doesnt it?

So basically, Lebanon is getting the fuck bombed out of it, because Hezbollah had the audacity to stop them illegally crossing the Border in the 1st place...

[j2k4]

As the AFP reported, "According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aitaa al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning." And the French news site www.VoltaireNet.org reiterated the same account on June 18, "In a deliberated way, [Israel] sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aitaa al-Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, taking two prisoners."

The Associated Press ( http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html) departed from the official version as well. "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them," reported Joseph Panossian for AP on July 12. "The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity."
And the Hindustan Times ( http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm) on July 12 conveyed a similar account:

"The Lebanese Shi'ite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. 'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said. 'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border."

Really... depends whether you believe the official Israeli version, or the version that the Journalists had reported before that version of events was put out when the operation went tits up, doesnt it?

So basically, Lebanon is getting the fuck bombed out of it, because Hezbollah had the audacity to stop them illegally crossing the Border in the 1st place...

Didn't you just say, "...depends on whether you believe..."?

Both are likely to tell different stories, each for their own reasons.

What's new?

In a strictly objective sense, upon which you must rely to make the argument, neither is more inherently "true" or "believable" than the other, is it?

[vidcc]

Oh, sure; they may eventually "stand up and be counted"...forgive my impatience, but what would you regard as an appropriate prompt for this to occur?

In simpler terms, what in the ever-loving blue fuck are they waiting for? Nukes?
ok concentrate:

They stand up when they are attacked, not when we are attacked. When they do stand up it tends to be against the attackers and there is little interest in who did what first. And when they do stand up it may be to fight a common enemy, not in support of extremist theology

You know the USA isn't unpopular just because it isn't mostly muslim...we have other things going for us.



I don't have the slightest idea what that means.

Oh well