Occult Discussions

[hobbes]

Originally posted by tianup@16 May 2003 - 23:04
If you remove the genetic defects that nature has programmed due to over-population, toxification, poor nutrition, etc., nature, as it has shown us MANY times, will simply create a more powerful genetic weakness, or virus, or natural disaster for that matter, to take care of the imbalance.  This is what we were discussing before.  I don't know if I agree that it is a form of natural population control

but I do agree that it is at least a symptom.  If you can see this corelation, then you must be able to see what happens when medical science solves these "genetic defects".  We receive "evolved" defects.  It's the same with viruses (the ones nature created), and other natural "predators".

So, I agree with you in theory.  But I believe the only way to achieve this balance is to earn it through creating a healthy environment which will cause this adaptation naturally.  Fixing genetic code is short term and will cause more problems in the long run than we've even dreamed of.  As much as it would be nice to believe, you cannot fool nature.



Just MHO.

You seem to be saying that if we correct genetic defects, this will increase survival and lead to over population, a poisoned environment, and poor nutrition.


That is true, that for every silver-lining there is a cloud.

I was just pointing out that the more sophisticated the society, the more vulnerable it would be to a man-made or natural disaster, becasue it has the ability to allow those with genetic frailities to survive and reproduce.

Look at the people of Iraq, all living in hard times, those who have survived are tough, all those with birth defects, metabolic illnesses, endocrine disaese, etc are dead. Those surviving people have the genetics to function independent of technology.

I just find it ironic that the greater our science becomes the weaker we as individuals are. If an equal disaster were to occur worldwide, all the high-tech people would be wiped out, leaving the primitive dwellers behind.

So, I was just pointing out that the only way to combine living in a technologically advanced world with maintaining a resilent genome is through gene therapy.

You are absolutely right in concluding that we would just disrupt balance by overpopulating the planet, or in some other way. This is a shame though, since we as humans could control overpopulation voluntarily, but we wouldn't. Alas.

I think you should have to pass a test in order to be issued gonads.

[tianup]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2003 - 23:54


I think you should have to pass a test in order to be issued gonads.

Agreed, as well as ovaries.

I think you might be underestimating the number of people in the world that would be quite able to survive without modern technology. I used to think the other way around, because I grew up in the woods, and was trained in survival skills my whole childhood and early adulthood, but I've been in situations with people who you would least expect to survive on their own, and they've proven themselves quite capable, even invaluable members of the team. I don't think the human spirit and will to survive has been bred out of that many of us.

All I can hear right now is "I Will Survive!..."

[hobbes]

Originally posted by tianup+17 May 2003 - 00:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tianup @ 17 May 2003 - 00:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--hobbes@16 May 2003 - 23:54


I think you should have to pass a test in order to be issued gonads.

Agreed, as well as ovaries.

I think you might be underestimating the number of people in the world that would be quite able to survive without modern technology. I used to think the other way around, because I grew up in the woods, and was trained in survival skills my whole childhood and early adulthood, but I&#39;ve been in situations with people who you would least expect to survive on their own, and they&#39;ve proven themselves quite capable, even invaluable members of the team. I don&#39;t think the human spirit and will to survive has been bred out of that many of us.

All I can hear right now is "I Will Survive&#33;..." [/b][/quote]
Well sure, adversity brings out the fight in us all.

But, I was talking about in the future when everyone was either taking insulin for diabetes, or pancreatic enzymes for cystic fibrosis, or transfusions for sickle cell (and the list goes on).

No amount of toughness can help these people. I would be unable to do anything because of nearsightness, which is fully corrected in our high-tech world.

Anyway, the discussion was fun.

PS: Gonads applies to testicles and ovaries. It is gender neutral. So you can kick a girl in the &#39;nads if you want, you just need to have better aim and will probably have to kick her twice. (Hobbes is not endorsing this.)

[ne1GotZardoz]

To the sub-plot that has developed around the whole devolution theme, I present SARS and HIV.

I am reminded of a Mad Magazine, (book tie-in here) comic talking about scientific experiments with rats.
You remember...Force feeding a rat tobacco to see how long it took it to die of cancer...injecting it with red dye #7, etc.

It said that eliminating all the things that cause cancer in rats will create more robust, healthy rats.

My eyesight has gotten pretty bad over the past few years. I know I&#39;m getting older but thats not it.

And I use to think it was from sitting in front of the computer screen so much, but recently I&#39;m realizing it goes beyond that.

What tipped me off was sunglasses.
100% UV protection sunglasses.

I no longer have eyestrain.
My eyes don&#39;t bother me at all.
My sight isn&#39;t improving but its also not getting worse.

Those same UV rays that burn your skin, burn your eyes even when you don&#39;t notice it.
Your eyes try to protect from it and thats why you have to squint in the sun.
But the first time I put on 100% UV protection sunglasses, (the cheap ones too), no more squinting.
I can be looking almost directly at the sun with no pain.
(Not that I&#39;m advising you try it of course).

UV radiation.

An increase of Radioactive Strontium90 in the soil, probably the result of UV activity on greenhouse gases.

And now we have SARS and HIV and science finally admitting that harmless organisms can mutate into potentially deadly ones.

It would make a marvelous scifi movie don&#39;t you think?

Nature doesn&#39;t have to kill us off...We&#39;re taking care of just fine on our own.

Peace

[Rocktron]

I read all (well i attempted) to read all of this, but it&#39;s all to much copy & paste for me sorry&#33;
The big question of all is... who are we and what are we doing here? Right?

Just do the best you can and don&#39;t hurt anyone or anything that lives and breathes.
Believe that there is something BIGGER than you, and respect life as it comes.
The theory&#39;s and believes that people fabricate are sincere but ungrounded..

Respect your life and be aware of other breathing beings that are going through the same hard times as you...
No one is different .. we are the same&#33; Just souls with the same BIG question.. right?

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by ToraBoraDweller@16 May 2003 - 14:48

I have The An**chists Cookbook.

I knew you were a religious man&#33;
The partaking of human flesh is practized by animists.
(believed by many to be very primitive ppl )

(I remembered that book because someone mentioned it recently in a thread about the F*B.I,
I can&#39;t even find my own old posts more than 10 ago)

LOL I hope you were joking.

If not, I&#39;m curious to know how you got &#39;Animist&#39; from &#39;An**chist&#39;.



Peace

[hobbes]

Now NE1,

Let us not start paranoia.

The destruction of the ozone layer allows more energy from the sun, in the form of UV waves, to penetrate our atmosphere. The greenhouse gases, of which you speak, absorb this UV energy as it is reflected away from the earth back towards space. This absorbed energy increases the thermal energy of the gas (makes it warmer). Were it not for these gases, the Earth would be uninhabitably cold.

The concern is that the production of excessive greenhouse gases and the degradation of the ozone layer will lead to global warming. Too much UV let in, too much trapped as heat in the atmosphere.

All UV light does to our environment is make it warmer.

The decay of Strontium is based on nuclear instability and is not effected by ambient temperature. Even if it did, Strontium 90 decays in such a way that it would kill rather than mutate any organism close to it. Anyway, the organisms that attack us don&#39;t live deep in the soil.

Anyway, I&#39;ve just ruined a totally good plot, sorry.


Science has never disputed that mutations can cause an organism to be lethal. Look at the Influenza pandemic of 1918 which killed 40 million people. This is why we get flu shots (Influenza) http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/ every year based on the strain in China the previous year.

SARS, really just a mutation of a different virus, normally innocuous, now potentially lethal. Lethal plagues tend to recur at 75 year intervals to help the Earth clear out excess population.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2003 - 21:55
Now NE1,

Let us not start paranoia.

The destruction of the ozone layer allows more energy from the sun, in the form of UV waves, to penetrate our atmosphere. The greenhouse gases, of which you speak, absorb this UV energy as it is reflected away from the earth back towards space. This absorbed energy increases the thermal energy of the gas (makes it warmer). Were it not for these gases, the Earth would be uninhabitably cold.

The concern is that the production of excessive greenhouse gases and the degradation of the ozone layer will lead to global warming. Too much UV let in, too much trapped as heat in the atmosphere.

All UV light does to our environment is make it warmer.

The decay of Strontium is based on nuclear instability and is not effected by ambient temperature. Even if it did, Strontium 90 decays in such a way that it would kill rather than mutate any organism close to it. Anyway, the organisms that attack us don&#39;t live deep in the soil.

Anyway, I&#39;ve just ruined a totally good plot, sorry.


Science has never disputed that mutations can cause an organism to be lethal. Look at the Influenza pandemic of 1918 which killed 40 million people. This is why we get flu shots (Influenza) http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/ every year based on the strain in China the previous year.

SARS, really just a mutation of a different virus, normally innocuous, now potentially lethal. Lethal plagues tend to recur at 75 year intervals to help the Earth clear out excess population.

Ok...Then how about this:

I&#39;ve been systematically poisoning the Dinosaurs&#39; water supply and in ten million years they will be totally extinct.


Try and stop me.

However, radiation does cause mutation. DNA is still so little understood and small changes, (the right link knocked out of place), could have devastating results.

Look what happens to skin after just a few years of overexposure to sunlight.
Skin cancer.

Something is changed on the genetic level.
You can call it cancer but its a mutation of the dna of certain cells.

Strontium90 may kill organisms close to it, but what is the effect a medium distance from a source?
Virii do exist in the soil.
SARS is believed to have been the result of a melding of two harmless virii.
Farm animals were believed to be the source.
Greenhouse gases do keep the earth from being too cold at night and too hot in the daytime.
Strontium90 is the result of the decay of something else and the concentrations are higher recently.
Could be the decay of that haze I see in big cities due to the effect of UV radiation on Fossil Fuel Emissions. Since more UV rays are now allowed in due to a reduced Ozone layer, that would mean more skin cancer, more eye damage, more Strontium90 and an increase in the mutation rate of simple organisms.
More mutations would mean more deadly mutations too.

Of course, it could also just be that we are more aware now thanks to science of things that have been happening at the same rate the whole time.

Still a great idea for a book though.

Peace

I don&#39;t know...

[hobbes]

Bastard&#33;

It is Friday night and I refuse to piss on anyones parade, run with it&#33;&#33;&#33;

My chest feels so tight right now, probably nothing. Cough&#33;

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 May 2003 - 23:04
Bastard&#33;

It is Friday night and I refuse to piss on anyones parade, run with it&#33;&#33;&#33;

My chest feels so tight right now, probably nothing. Cough&#33;

Awe come&#39;on dude...Its no fun if you don&#39;t point out the fatal flaws in my logic. Someone could actually believe it.

Since you won&#39;t, I&#39;ll do it myself. (I did some research)

Strontium90 is a byproduct of nuclear fission of Uranium and Plutonium. (I always want to capitalize important words for some reason)

It was never found in the environment prior to the nuclear age.

There is no research on whether it could result from any other sources.

EPA Strontium 90 Information

Strontium90, (or any radioactive material for that matter), does cause genetic mutation and there have been unexpected increases in its levels over the past few years. Especially around areas of nuclear disasters and testing.
Haven&#39;t we recently learned of 3rd world countries having nuclear testing facilities?
Nuclear Testing Tally
The environmental impact of the Iraqi underground nuclear facility and whatever has been happening in Korea, India, Pakistan, China, who knows, with their nuclear testing, will not be truly realized for decades or more.

So I was WAY wrong about the source, but the effect is still the same.

Oh...and UV rays still cause their own forms of mutation and celular damage.

In any event, its not good and until we get the world under control, it will get worse.

Here&#39;s a good general source of info on the Ozone problem.

Global Warming