Occult Discussions

[ne1GotZardoz]

Can we get back to discussion of the Occult now?

I read an auto-bio of Crowley once.
Very smart man. Unusual character.

He tried so many different religions.
He even went on a Buddha binge once. Started to look like a Buddha too.

People accused him of being a satanist among other things.

He wasn't and he regreted not refuting the alegations after he was older.

He was an explorer basically.
He didn't take anything for granted. He studied ancient manuscripts and different religions trying to find the source. God, if you will.
He performed ancient rituals, (Very similar to the rituals performed by several saints and even by King Solomon himself), in an attempt to SEE something tangible that would prove to him that there was a world beyond the physical.
To prove that there was a Source for this reality.
To prove God.
But because people didn't understand, they accused him of devil worship and branded him a beast.

At the time, he enjoyed the privacy that gave him. Morons stay away from you if they think you'll curse their first-born son. But in his later life that privacy pretty much became exile for him.

He died a very sad and lonely man who had lived a most remarkable life.

Most people have a hard time grasping God through a single religion. He approached the Source from several paths.
Looking for the 'one'.

I hope he found it.

I believe he did.

Peace

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@15 May 2003 - 18:33
To me, creating God to explain our existence simply differs the question. The question then becomes, who created God?

I've heard the answer before, "he has always been and will always be, he is outside of time". Whatever. You either believe that or you don't, you can't discuss it any further. I call this "the black box".

So for me, by creating God, we explain a complex situation, by creating a more complex one.>


[/b]

I remember that argument.

I was 14 at the time. I was having problems believing in a God in any form so I was attempting to prove that we could exist without some controlling force.

I had created a mental model of the known universe and was pushing out away from it to see how far my mind would allow me to get.
Whenever I came upon a mental wall, I would try to imagine something beyond it.

What I came to believe is that we know absolutely nothing about reality.

We only know the reality we are given.

I mean Come'on!!!

The Universe was just Always here??? Always in motion???

Does anyone in here really understand what 'Always' really means?

If Newtons laws of motion were right, then the Universe had to be Always in motion because it just could not have kick-started itself.

Chemical reactions do not occur if there is no motion at the molecular level.

Gases don't just float around in space and then suddenly come together and explode.

They had to come from somewhere.

If you believe that our reality is true reality and that the universe has been here...forever...why is God so hard to believe?

If the Universe HAS been here forever then I find it silly to believe that a God-form could not have evolved in all that End-less time.

And if the Universe has Not been here forever, something had to put it here.

Either way, I consider it inconceivable that there is not some greater controlling force out there.

I mean, does anyone really understand what Infinity is?
Lets do a small math quiz here for those who never really thought about it before...

What is half of Infinity?

What is 1/10th of Infinity?

What is 1/1000th of Infinity?

What is one, one millionth of 1% of Infinity?

The answer of course, in each of those questions, is 'Infinity'.

So for me, Its very hard to believe that there is not a God in some form since the reality we are given cannot exist solely in and of itself.

But if the reality we are given to know, is true, I have to go back to the typewriting monkey syndrome and say simply that in an infinity of time, (just one small infinity of time), such a force would eventually evolve that could control it all.
Even if its only a universal consciousness.

Peace

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz+17 May 2003 - 02:49--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 17 May 2003 - 02:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ToraBoraDweller@16 May 2003 - 14:48

I have The An**chists Cookbook.

I knew you were a religious man&#33;
The partaking of human flesh is practized by animists.
(believed by many to be very primitive ppl )

(I remembered that book because someone mentioned it recently in a thread about the F*B.I,
I can&#39;t even find my own old posts more than 10 ago)

LOL I hope you were joking.

If not, I&#39;m curious to know how you got &#39;Animist&#39; from &#39;An**chist&#39;.



Peace [/b][/quote]
I think he&#39;s thinking of a different type of book.

To anyone else out there that thinks the same......Im not into human flesh (unless its female and I dont have to digest it )

[hobbes]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz+17 May 2003 - 11:54--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 17 May 2003 - 11:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--hobbes@15 May 2003 - 18:33
To me, creating God to explain our existence simply differs the question.&nbsp; The question then becomes, who created God?

I&#39;ve heard the answer before, "he has always been and will always be, he is outside of time".&nbsp; Whatever.&nbsp; You either believe that or you don&#39;t, you can&#39;t discuss it any further.&nbsp; I call this "the black box".

So for me, by creating God, we explain a complex situation, by creating a more complex one.>


[/b]

What I came to believe is that we know absolutely nothing about reality.

We only know the reality we are given.

I mean Come&#39;on&#33;&#33;&#33;


They had to come from somewhere.

If you believe that our reality is true reality and that the universe has been here...forever...why is God so hard to believe?

If the Universe HAS been here forever then I find it silly to believe that a God-form could not have evolved in all that End-less time.

And if the Universe has Not been here forever, something had to put it here.

Either way, I consider it inconceivable that there is not some greater controlling force out there.


So for me, Its very hard to believe that there is not a God in some form since the reality we are given cannot exist solely in and of itself.

Peace[/b][/quote]

You have basically stated that the origin of the universe is unknown.
How could all of this just arisen from nothing.
The scope is so huge that it hard to fathom.

I say, "man this is hard to explain, maybe science in time will reveal the clues, as of now this is a mystery" Look at the progress made in the last 200 years. We hadn&#39;t even discovered microrganisms then and blamed illnesses on sin and tried to cure the body by blood letting. Now we genetically program these organisms to serve mankind. That is just the tip of the scientific iceberg. All fields of science have grown as exponentially in that time period. So, on the chance we don&#39;t kill ourselves first, imagine the knowledge we will have in 1 million years. 1 million years is nothing, as you say, in the scale of infinity.


You just threw your hands up and said, "C&#39;mon, this is some crazy shit here. How could it just be and always have been?" Sure, this may suggest a higher power, but PROVES nothing, except that we don&#39;t understand. Creating God is called EJECTING from the process of thought. Makes everything all better.

So by creating God, you prove nothing and explain a complex situation by creating a more complex one. Can you fathom the Theory of Relativity? Me neither, but it works. God is a default, not an answer. Where did matter come from, well where did God come from?




Unfortunately, OUR universe is not eternal. The Earth can only exist because of our Sun. We use the energy it sends us to propagate life. The Sun is a finite object and will eventually extinquish or explode. In fact the entire Universe is in a process of converting potential energy (that which can perform work) into thermal heat. Eventually, all energy will be dissipated and all work(life) will cease.

So even if there were a God, his plan would necessarilty include the destruction of the Earth at some point, which is very early in the concept of infinity, even if it is 200 trillion years away. Yeah, I know, the second coming of Christ will intervene before this time. Don&#39;t even get me started on organized Religion which believes that God wrote a book for them.

Stephen Hawking sort of sums up the universe this way (I&#39;m skipping the quark/anti-quark part):

1) We start as an object of infinite mass and infinite density. At some point the repulsive forces of the matter outweigh the attractive forces and it explodes, dispersing matter into the universe.

2) Currently the universe is expanding, astronomers claim they know this by the "red shift" of the stars they view.

3) Eventually the repulsive forces will become balanced with the attractive forces and the Universe will cease to expand. As the attrative forces start to dominate the universe will begin to contract.

4) This will eventually lead to the creation of the object of infinite mass and density (and the obligate destruction of Earth in this process).

5) The cycle repeats.

Kind of fits nicely into the theme of infinity. Like a coiled spring, the universe expands and contracts over and over.


There is so much that I do not understand and science cannot explain, this; however, does not prove that a God exists. Could he, sure. I can&#39;t disprove it. In fact, if he does exist, I would be elated.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@17 May 2003 - 10:40

Strontium90 is a byproduct of nuclear fission of Uranium and Plutonium. (I always want to capitalize important words for some reason)

It was never found in the environment prior to the nuclear age.


Strontium90, (or any radioactive material for that matter), does cause genetic mutation and there have been unexpected increases in its levels over the past few years. Especially around areas of nuclear disasters and testing.
Haven&#39;t we recently learned of 3rd world countries having nuclear testing facilities?
Nuclear Testing Tally


So I was WAY wrong about the source, but the effect is still the same.

Oh...and UV rays still cause their own forms of mutation and celular damage.



Global Warming

As this is a forum, I try to keep my posts readable and not too long, so I try to stay away from details when possible. This can lead to vagarity and confusion.


You were playing with the idea that viruses exposed to Strontium90, might be mutated into lethal variants (HIV, SARS). Simple organisms of this type are going to be destroyed by the radiation, rather than mutated. In fact, radiation is used commercially to sterilize materials, specifically to kill viruses. In more complex organisms Strontium can cause mutations, just like any other source of ionizing radiation.

Strontium can only harm you if you come into contact with it. It only travels a few cm in the air before it&#39;s energy is absorbed. So you really have to be holding the stuff to have any effect. Almost all of that effect will be on the skin.

Now if it got into your water and you drank it, you would die, so don&#39;t do that, ok.


As for UV light, I was referring to the atmosphere, not humans, when I stated that all it does is warm things up. Guess I got a little sloppy.

You are right, UV light, when absorbed by the skin, causes certain specific molecules to form unwanted bonds which can lead to mutation and cancer. Just use sunscreen.

Just remember that UV light and Sr90 are very different in amount of energy they can impart. It is like comparing feathers to bunker busters. Anyway, that is a different , but interesting story.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@17 May 2003 - 10:14
You have basically stated that the origin of the universe is unknown.
How could all of this just arisen from nothing.
The scope is so huge that it hard to fathom.

Ok...You&#39;re suggesting a Cirtical Mass thing. As everything falls back to the center of the universe, it builds up a mass that cannot support its own weight and begins collapsing, much like a black hole which was a star that collapsed under its own weight.

A Super Vortex perhaps?

Sucking everything in faster and faster as its gravitational field becomes so powerful that it reaches to the farthest edges of the Universe, (where are these edges at I wonder), until it builds up such as mass that matter and energy are one. But the process isn&#39;t over because matter and energy are still falling into it. At some point, another collapse occurs, this one resulting in the greatest event of all time. Not the big bang. Thats what spawned our solar system.

Not even the Bigger Bang.

That was our Galaxy.

This one was the biggest bang of all...The Gang Bang&#33;&#33;&#33;

Every star, planet, galaxy, cloud of gas, all joining together in one final moment of universal harmony as the cycle begins again.


Oh...And Relativity is easy enough.

Its just Einstein&#39;s way of explaining the relationship of two objects moving at different rates of speed in a slow moving universe.

If I am on earth and I wave my hands at exactly 5pm on Tuesday, and then I hop into my space ship and accelerate to Warp 3 for 1 minute, when I turn around and take out my pocket telescope and look back at earth, I will see myself heading up the hill to the spaceship, turn, look up at the stars, wave my hand then hop in my spaceship and accelerate at warp 3 toward myself.

Time and speed are relative to the observer.

If I&#39;m in a spaceship travelling at warp 3 and my son hops in his spaceship and travels at warp 5, (you know kids these days), then relative to me, he&#39;s traveling at warp two, and relative to him, I&#39;m travelling backwards at warp two.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@17 May 2003 - 10:42
You were playing with the idea that viruses exposed to Strontium90, might be mutated into lethal variants (HIV, SARS). Simple organisms of this type are going to be destroyed by the radiation, rather than mutated. In fact, radiation is used commercially to sterilize materials, specifically to kill viruses.&nbsp; In more complex organisms Strontium can cause mutations, just like any other source of ionizing radiation.

Strontium can only harm you if you come into contact with it.&nbsp; It only travels a few cm in the air before it&#39;s energy is absorbed.&nbsp; So you really have to be holding the stuff to have any effect.&nbsp; Almost all of that effect will be on the skin.

This is just theory of course on my part, but if you have potentially trillions of bacteria and virii being attacked daily by radioactive isotopes including Sr90 and UV, (I know its not an isotope but it does have an effect), isn&#39;t it realistic to assume that a fraction of a percent result in mutation instead of destruction?

And of that fraction of a percent, isn&#39;t it possible that, oh, every 75 years or so, a mutation occurs that is exceptionally destructive to other organisms?

We did an experiment in grade school science class once with pond water and a very powerful microscope.
The experiment was to prove that boiling the water would kill any organisms in it.

First we looked at the sample to see all the little critters swimming happily around.
Then we boiled it and looked at it again.
Everything was dead except for one unexpectedly hardy little critter. He wasn&#39;t very active but he was definately still alive.

There are exceptions to every rule.

Mutations do occur.

As for Sr90, it works its way up the food chain according to those links I posted earlier.

Our body sees it the same as calcium and parks it in our bones where it affects our bones, teeth, blood.

I would guess that high concentrations could kill rather quickly. Fortunately those levels are not common and its half-life is 29 years.

At the low levels it exists in humans, it causes genetic defects in children and cancers or tumors in adults.


Peace

[hobbes]

C&#39;mon now, give me a little credit, I understand what the theory implies. I&#39;m just saying that if I had a paper and pencil, I would never be able to derive that time was not a constant.

His theory sort of messed with people minds it was so revolutionary. Here we had something we thought was understood and was constant (TIME) and he turned us on our ears.

Talk about confidence, his theory was not scientifically validated until many years after his death.

Don&#39;t be dissin&#39; ol&#39; Einstein with "Relativity is easy enough", you disrespect him. B)



As far as the other stuff, sure, anything is possible. It is even possible that some God waved his hand and created the whole universe.

People just tend to get a little hystrical when it comes to "radioactivity". The link gives you a breakdown of your radiation exposure sources. http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/gl...y/exposure.html Sr90 is sort of in the 0.3% category.

The amusing thing is that when you go to the hospital and your doctor decides to get x-rays and CT scans of your body, he is subjecting you to much more radiation than you will ever get from SR90.

Maybe SARS came from someone with normal pneumonia who got a chest x-ray, which mutated it into SARS.
How about them apples?



So anyway, you were talking about Crowley? All I know about him is that Led Zepplin rented a house he lived in to write an album. Not much else.

Crowley, like many people, seems to have spent his life looking for the "holy grail".

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@17 May 2003 - 12:37
So anyway, you were talking about Crowley? All I know about him is that Led Zepplin rented a house he lived in to write an album. Not much else.

Crowley, like many people, seems to have spent his life looking for the "holy grail".

You sir, are a very interesting person.

I&#39;m curious about your rabbit. Did you draw a rabbits face on the rump of a rabbit or on a picture of the rump of a rabbit?

As for Crowley, yes, thats pretty much it.

He founded a few religious orders, probably by accident. The Ordo Templi, which for some reason, I cannot remember right now if it is the same as the Golden Dawn or two separate groups, but they were the main ones.

When they became mired in their own ritualistic dogma, he moved on to other things.

Like I said, he was an explorer. Seeking enlightenment. The quest for Universal truth.

My religious beliefs based on my limited experiences leads me to believe that if anyone could find their way into the light, he would be one who did.

I don&#39;t think he would linger very long in hell.
He was much too restless for that.

Have you ever experienced anything you couldn&#39;t explain? I&#39;m talking about what some would define as supernatural experience?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@17 May 2003 - 19:18


I&#39;m curious about your rabbit. Did you draw a rabbits face on the rump of a rabbit or on a picture of the rump of a rabbit?


Have you ever experienced anything you couldn&#39;t explain? I&#39;m talking about what some would define as supernatural experience?

Too be honest, I never have. But I must admit to being a horror movie and book fan. I love a good old fashioned haunted house story.

Anyway, keep things stirred up on the forum. Unfortunately, my rabbit http://www.mordenart.com/rabbit.JPG and I are off to work until late.