Morality Question...

[J'Pol]

It's not really a complex issue.

I am not sure which particular school subject is being taught, in which file sharing is being discussed. However my children are aware that teachers have their own sets of prejudices which effect them when teaching any subject. This may effect history, geography, modern studies, ethics, politics etc.

My children have been taught that teachers are not always right, they are only human like the rest of us. They have also been taught that their parents are not always right. We discuss things which go on in their lives, when they are ready to discuss them. That's usually because they bring the subject up, though not in an obvious manner. They know how we feel about things, they also know that their mother and I do not always agree and that it is OK for them not to agree.

We encourage them to discuss things and to make up their own minds, but to respect the fact that other people are entitled to their own opinions. They may think that what you are doing is wrong, however as long as they respect that you do not, then that is healthy for both of you.

Who knows they may even agree with you that what you are doing is not wrong.

[Buffalo]

QUOTE,
KL is morally or ethicly wrong, however it is becoming evident that this is not to far off.

I am totally opposed to teaching my children bad things or things that the rest of the free world has chosen to affix the dreaded "theif" label to. The schools are teaching them that filesharing such as we participate in is legally wrong and therefore subject to scrutiny and severe penalties.

AS a good friend of one of the founders of the information superhighway, The intention of the internet was free to all, it's only since the over take of companies, that it's gone to pot, Only today AOL has advertised their new AOL 8.0 and said to share.
The internet has lost it's original meaning.
Greed and Pofit has taken over what was so beautiful.
Once the thumbs are in thats it.
Will it ever become what it was intended for once again.
My feelings are sad on this subject, It's total greed that has caused this today.

[ShareDaddy]

Originally posted by oldmancan@15 May 2003 - 14:34
Interesting topic SD. I'm struggling with some of those issues too. I must admit I've been somewhat taken by the darkside. I want to be part of a community/society that is positive and constructive. I want my kids to be part of that world. I try to parent ... as I do...not just as I say.

So years ago we get a comp. No pirated anything...'cause besides being illegal there is the whole intellectual property issue. (Bring on the Flamin&#39. Thou shalt not steal...pretty simple. If someone shares with me great. But what if what they are sharing with me is not "theirs" to share?

The family rule was originally for software. So I come home one day and there's Napster. Well, how cool is that? I hear the dark side calling.

So we get into the tunes and let the morals slide abit.

Recently there was a post about legality (pick a day, any day - it seems) which got me thinking and researching. Had a family discussion. Found out that my wife had very strong feelings (negative) that she had been harbouring. My son was open to both sides, but prefers to not decide (can I dl while I think about it?).

I decided not to dl anymore copyrighted stuff. But that decision is based mostly on finding that post about making top quality mp3's. I love VBR, EAC and lame. I've been busy re-rip'n all my cd's.

So, right now we are sharing all my new rips and all my son's stuff. I deleted all my old 128 cbr mp3's. Under Canadian Law, I looking at a $1,000,000 per property (file) for "distributing". Works out to about 25 cents US.

I know that there are sites dedicated to high quality tunes. But I'm gonna stick to the idea of "fair use" and only have backups of material that I have legally purchased. As for the boyo he'll have to decide for himself. As for my wife she is happy to listen to a waaay smaller collection that she feels good about.

So far as k-lite we don't run it 24/7 much anymore. But it's usually running whenever the kid is on the comp. Once he takes a position we'll see about continuing to use k-lite or not.

I'm not judging anyone or promoting anything. I'm just telling my story. Pls keep the flaming in good humour. I believe in sharing and it seems to me that this forum shares the best commodity. Not mp3's, mpeg's nor software. Thoughts and information.

btw state your case if you want, but pls don't try to convince me about the evil greedy recording industry. You'd be preaching to the converted.

Peace

You have stated a lot of the same things I have been thinking and I appreciate that. I would hope that no one individual on this forum takes anything you have stated as flame-worthy. Well put and I totally understand.

My foret into this subject started when my children would speak about my p2p habits openly with anyone at anytime. One such incident was with a group of fellow church goers and I was somewhat distraught over the whole incident at the time and the more time I spent thinking about it the more clouded my entire views of the subject became. I had to literally step back and examine my position and refer back to a lot of child hood based memories of mine regarding my parents and their habits, good or bad to try and make sense out of the entire issue. To this point, I am still at a loss as to what I should do.

I enjoy the whole p2p experience, I have always been a sharer as far back as I can recall (speaking of pre-internet, in person types of sharing). Funny thing is I would never even thought of copying any of my 8 tracks (had quite the collection in my pre-teens), cassettes (huge collection in my teens) or CD's (started buying them in 1988 or 1989) until the Internet came along. Therefore, as you have stated I was serenaded by the dark side and bought it hook, line and sinker.

Now as the years go by, I guess I am searching for the force or power with which to once and for all figure this issue out and get on with my meager, albeit wonderfully expansive existence. If you follow me, that is.

[Rat Faced]

Sharedaddy, it seems to me there are two seperate issues:

1/ Morality

2/ Legality


Laws exist, but are not necessarily right and moral.

Some, such as those concerning Murder and Theft are obviously Moral. They are there to protect a Society from those that would harm it.

Others are subjective; and must be viewed in the context of the society to which they pertane. For example Alcohol in Suadi Arabia is illegal, and due to their religious beliefs it may be 'moral' to have prohibition there, whereas the USA has already shown that it is not acceptable in its own country. This is an example of a 'moral' Law......remember 'morals' are not Universal in nature; what is moral one place isnt in another and vise versa; it is a product of the local beliefs.


Then there are Laws that are left over and still exist which have outlived their usefulness; even if they made sence at the time they were written. For example a Taxi in the UK (A Hackney Carriage) is still required to carry a Bail of Hay (with which to feed the horse).........obviously these laws are broken all the time, as they are rediculous in this day and age. Its immoral to still have them on the books, not to break them.


And then there is the grey areas, such as filesharing.

To me, the Law is an Ass as far as these laws are concerned; and i have no qualms about breaking them. They are used to keep Fat Cats rich. They do not protect Society, indeed they encourage Greed which damages Society. Are the Laws therefore 'Moral'? I personally do not think so.

Its GOOD to teach your kids to respect the Law, and follow it while young.

However, I encourage my oldest to Know the Law; and know the difference between Right and Wrong....not blindly follow it.

I would much rather he did what he felt was RIGHT than to do what is LEGAL.

He knows that if he is caught breaking the Law, then he is going to be punished. He also knows that if he can show that it is the Law that is at fault, I will stick by him all the way, as usually the only way to get rid of these Laws is to fight them.

[DarthInsinuate]

i would agree with Rat-Faced

if your kids think filesharing is completely immoral then you shouldn't encourage them, it'll confuse their view of right and wrong, especially if they're really young

I would much rather he did what he felt was RIGHT than to do what is LEGAL

[WeeMouse]

I don't think it's wrong.

Yeah, I'm taught in Administration about all the legal stuff, but as far as I'm concerned, why shouldn't i? I like the band Hanson (no giggles please&#33 and the only way I can get their music is over Kazaa. However, as soon as the albums become availabe over here - I buy them!

i don't have kids, but I have 3 nephews and as soon as they are old enough I will teach them all about file-sharing etc (with a little help from Lamsey). They can make up their own minds on it, but I think it may help if they know all of the facts!

The real thieves tho are the greedy record company type-people who can make CDs for pennies and sell them for many many pounds over here.


So there!

[Skweeky]

well...I don't have kids myself, but I have one niece that stays over at my place like every two weeks. She's 13 now and she starts to realize vertain things concerning drugs, alcohol, sex (not filesharing, she's not into that stuff, but it's the same idea, right?). She has all these questions that she is afraid of to ask at home. Which is totally understandable, cause she knows her parents won't tell her the (full) truth. So she comes to me....
Over the last months I have talked to her about excessive drinking, boyfriends and smoking marihuana....I told her of my own experiences with these things as well as the advantages and disadvantages and I have tried to present it as objective as possible.
I know she looks up to me, but I think I have done a good job here. She likes to drink a few beers, just like me, but she hates drugs, where I use drugs on regular bases.
What I'm trying to say is: just try to present things as they truly are and teach your kids just to have an opinion of their own, as Rat Faced said: teach them to know the difference between right and wrong.

[imported_stg1123]

Interesting topic which applies to me as well. As you can see from my sig my son is still quite young (and cute) and if you check my website I am a new music artist (jewish jazz funk rock). Many people (who now my sharing habits) have asked me how I'd feel if my music was being shared all over the net and the obvious answer is I'd be delighted because I'm not famous yet but I do feel thateven if was losing money on sales I wouldn't mind because the thing we are all forgetting here is that there are two opposing forces at play here. The first being Art and the second being Money. Any true artist (although they have to live) is involved in art for the sake of the art and not for the money. And this theory doesn't stick only to music and films but also to software (thats why all new developers make freeware versions etc. because they are showing off their art as well) There is no greater feeling for the artist than to be appreciated for their art and I believe I can speak here for all the musicians and actors and even directors in the world ( the once that didnt sell their souls to the devil ) I think that I'm hitting on an important point which extends from what Rat Faced was saying before:

Sharedaddy, it seems to me there are two seperate issues:
1/ Morality
2/ Legality

Ultimately these laws are protecting the wallets of the big guys and not the artists who believe me are getting every penny they deserve and more. And here's a legal conundrum. What exactly is being stolen....bytes. And these bytes are so hard to actually get hold of in a substancial sense of the word that one glitch (happened to me a couple of months ago on a brand new 80Gb Maxtor) and all those stolen bytes can be lost to oblivion. Furthermore a quick government strength wipe can incinerate them in a matter of moments so that they might have never existed. So the theft that we are actually discussing is intangible at the least and does not compute to going into a local DVD shop and leaving with a couple of extra DVD's down your pants

I dont want to waffle too much but it is not an easy topic to fully cover all the angles ( and cover up as well as is clearly the case if we bring in commercial software developers into the discussion). Maybe on a moral level the problem could arise if the particular artist actually made open statements that they refused to allow their music / drama to be shared. Ultimately I cant really come to any conclusions with regards to how I would deal with this for my kids because well the honest truth is I hope he doesn't take after me sitting in front of a computer all day, maybe it will just be the malignant tumor of our generation and by the time he gets to my age theyll have gone past all of this (which is probably true anyway if you think about it because in 27 years they will be laughing at our 1.5 meg adsl lines.

Anyway I hope I've brought some true angles to the discussion and enjoy my site and my music if you clicked on my webpage.

[Buffalo]

Will the internet ever become what it was intended for once again?

[MagicNakor]

If I'm not mistaken, I think the internet was originally meant to be used by scientists and scholars only, to have an easy way to share information. Then it got commericalized and available to Joe Public.

That's OT anyway.