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Thread: The Global warming blow-hards...

  1. #111
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Ian, do you believe that, if oil companies published any data which mitigates or counters "popular opinion" with regard to global warming, it will not be read with a jaundiced eye?
    didn't quite get answer my question, but nm. In answer to your question, undoubtedly yes. There has long been pressure on scientists to declare funding sources because it is known that funding has a way of affecting results. Which is why the oil & cigarette companies tend to fund research by proxy, ie setting up/financing organisations to fund research. Again there is pressure for all this to be declared when papers are published, but it doesn't always happen.
    As to the rest of your post (i.e. 'jobs for the boys') again what you said is partially true, although i think you maybe overestimate the extent to which research scientists' jobs depend on perpetuating global warming scares (although jobs downstream of the research would no doubt be in jeopardy). Personally i think research in this field suffers exactly the same problems as other fields, i.e. firstly researchers want to make a name for themselves by getting into the big journals and so they sex up their results, or secondly theres the related problem of publication bias (where studies showing negative/inconclusive results don't get submitted or selected for publication because negative results aren't as interesting). I think that those 2 problems are a bigger factor at the research end than job security.

    I'm kinda interested in this global cooling thing btw, i've read a little bit about it and it doesn't sound like it was anywhere near the scale of the current global warming hoopla. Was there really any scientific consensus (i know how much you hate that...) about it back then? Care to share any memories of it, j2?
    It was then just as it is now, minus the degree of bombardment due to media proliferation, and especially the interweb.

    The covers of magazines such as TIME, Newsweek, et. al., devoted covers and endless articles, and I recall several international panels were convened to hash things out.

    Summers were cooler, winters were, well, winters.

    Lake levels rose and fell, and either condition meant we were "doomed".

    I remember that it was touted as "inevitable", and "the end of the world as we know it"; oddly, though, the only rhetorical mechanism used in an attempt to tie global cooling to man's activities was the habit employed of likening it's effect to Nuclear Winter, about which you can google if you like.

    Anyway, then, as now, if you doubted the vision of the experts, you were shouted down and ridiculed.

    By the mid-eighties, you couldn't find a single soul who believed in "that rubbish" about global cooling.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #112
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazaaman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazaaman View Post


    What?
    I only wanted to ask what about the iceage part not about the above as you deceivingly posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    The USA does as much and more than any other country on earth to manage both production of pollutants and mitigate their effect.

    Europe tries to hew to a high standard as well, but is not by any stretch of the imagination "way ahead of us in the USA".

    What, then, about China?

    India?
    Wow, are you cooped in your house ignoring the world around you? The U.S. doing more than any other country in the world?This is total malarkey as seen from the link below. We have retards in our country like Joe Barton, who would do everything to stop the fight against global warming.

    http://thinkprogress.org/2006/12/05/...lobal-warming/

    China and India also need to take action that will cap emissions from their country accordingly. China is actually making roof gardens I think. They put plants on the roofs (the roofs are flat btw) to make the skyline cleaner and healthier. India also has better fuel efficient buses in New Delhi as featured in TIME magazine. (I have it around here somewhere...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ava Estelle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Actually, I did, but you've put your finger directly on the problem:

    Nobody else would have, especially the hard-core enviros, and certainly not you, had you not been so keen to try to counter me.
    Wrong ... I don't believe you read anything, or you wouldn't have posted that conclusion. As to me, I'm a prolific reader, I read not only the summary but all 408 pages of the PDF file too, and not just to counter you, that's a given, but because I have a genuine interest.
    PWNAGE!

    Damn, j2k4, you need to be more open-minded. Have you honestly thought about everything and still come to the conclusion you have presently? I stress again, watch "An Inconvenient Truth" plz.
    If you've swallowed "An Inconvenient Truth" hook, line, and sinker (or net, as a proud Indian), then you are beyond reach already.

    If you want to be rich, I suggest you invest in refrigeration stock, and sell before the bubble bursts.

    BTW-

    If you actually believe Ava read the whole 408 pages of that PDF, I guess I'm not surprised you were impressed with AlGore's movie...
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #113
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    The global cooling myth


    Every now and again, the myth that "we shouldn't believe global warming predictions now, because in the 1970's they were predicting an ice age and/or cooling" surfaces. Recently, George Will mentioned it in his column (see Will-full ignorance) and the egregious Crichton manages to say "in the 1970's all the climate scientists believed an ice age was coming" (see Michael Crichton’s State of Confusion ). You can find it in various other places too [here, mildly here, etc]. But its not an argument used by respectable and knowledgeable skeptics, because it crumbles under analysis. That doesn't stop it repeatedly cropping up in newsgroups though.

    I should clarify that I'm talking about predictions in the scientific press. There were some regrettable things published in the popular press (e.g. Newsweek; though National Geographic did better). But we're only responsible for the scientific press. If you want to look at an analysis of various papers that mention the subject, then try http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/.

    Where does the myth come from? Naturally enough, there is a kernel of truth behind it all. Firstly, there was a trend of cooling from the 40's to the 70's (although that needs to be qualified, as hemispheric or global temperature datasets were only just beginning to be assembled then). But people were well aware that extrapolating such a short trend was a mistake (Mason, 1976) . Secondly, it was becoming clear that ice ages followed a regular pattern and that interglacials (such as we are now in) were much shorter that the full glacial periods in between. Somehow this seems to have morphed (perhaps more in the popular mind than elsewhere) into the idea that the next ice age was predicatable and imminent. Thirdly, there were concerns about the relative magnitudes of aerosol forcing (cooling) and CO2 forcing (warming), although this latter strand seems to have been short lived.

    The state of the science at the time (say, the mid 1970's), based on reading the papers is, in summary: "...we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate..." (which is taken directly from NAS, 1975). In a bit more detail, people were aware of various forcing mechanisms - the ice age cycle; CO2 warming; aerosol cooling - but didn't know which would be dominant in the near future. By the end of the 1970's, though, it had become clear that CO2 warming would probably be dominant; that conclusion has subsequently strengthened.

    George Will asserts that Science magazine (Dec. 10, 1976) warned about "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation.". The quote is from Hays et al. But the quote is taken grossly out of context. Here, in full, is the small section dealing with prediction:

    Future climate. Having presented evidence that major changes in past climate were associated with variations in the geometry of the earth's orbit, we should be able to predict the trend of future climate. Such forecasts must be qualified in two ways. First, they apply only to the natural component of future climatic trends - and not to anthropogenic effects such as those due to the burning of fossil fuels. Second, they describe only the long-term trends, because they are linked to orbital variations with periods of 20,000 years and longer. Climatic oscillations at higher frequencies are not predicted.

    One approach to forecasting the natural long-term climate trend is to estimate the time constants of response necessary to explain the observed phase relationships between orbital variation and climatic change, and then to use those time constants in the exponential-response model. When such a model is applied to Vernekar's (39) astronomical projections, the results indicate that the long-term trend over the next 20,000 years is towards extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation and cooler climate (80).

    The point about timescales is worth noticing: predicting an ice age (even in the absence of human forcing) is almost impossible within a timescale that you could call "imminent" (perhaps a century: comparable to the scales typically used in global warming projections) because ice ages are slow, when caused by orbital forcing type mechanisms.

    Will also quotes "a full-blown 10,000-year ice age" (Science, March 1, 1975). The quote is accurate, but the source isn't. The piece isn't from "Science"; it's from "Science News". There is a major difference: Science is (jointly with Nature) the most prestigous journal for natural science; Science News is not a peer-reviewed journal at all, though it is still respectable. In this case, its process went a bit wrong: the desire for a good story overwhelmed its reading of the NAS report which was presumably too boring to present directly.

    The Hays paper above is the most notable example of the "ice age" strand. Indeed, its a very important paper in the history of climate, linking observed cycles in ocean sediment cores to orbital forcing periodicities. Of the other strand, aerosol cooling, Rasool and Schneider, Science, July 1971, p 138, "Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate" is the best exemplar. This contains the quote that quadrupling aerosols could decrease the mean surface temperature (of Earth) by as much as 3.5 degrees K. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease could be sufficient to trigger an ice age!. But even this paper qualifies its predictions (whether or not aerosols would so increase was unknown) and speculates that nuclear power may have largely replaced fossil fuels as a means of energy production (thereby, presumably, removing the aerosol problem). There are, incidentally, other scientific problems with the paper: notably that the model used was only suitable for small perturbations but the results are for rather large perturbations; and that the estimate of CO2 sensitivity was too low by a factor of about 3.

    Probably the best summary of the time was the 1975 NAS/NRC report. This is a serious sober assessment of what was known at the time, and their conclusion was that they didn't know enough to make predictions. From the "Summary of principal conclusions and recommendations", we find that they said we should:

    1. Establish National climatic research program
    2. Establish Climatic data analysis program, and new facilities, and studies of impact of climate on man
    3. Develope Climatic index monitoring program
    4. Establish Climatic modelling and applications program, and exploration of possible future climates using coupled GCMs
    5. Adoption and development of International climatic research program
    6. Development of International Palaeoclimatic data network

    Which is to say, they recommended more research, not action. Which was entirely appropriate to the state of the science at the time. In the last 30 years, of course, enormous progress has been made in the field of climate science.

    Most of this post has been about the science of 30 years ago. From the point of view of todays science, and with extra data available:

    1. The cooling trend from the 40's to the 70's now looks more like a slight interruption of an upward trend (e.g. here). It turns out that the northern hemisphere cooling was larger than the southern (consistent with the nowadays accepted interpreation that the cooling was largely caused by sulphate aerosols); at first, only NH records were available.
    2. Sulphate aerosols have not increased as much as once feared (partly through efforts to combat acid rain); CO2 forcing is greater. Indeed IPCC projections of future temperature inceases went up from the 1995 SAR to the 2001 TAR because estimates of future sulphate aerosol levels were lowered (SPM).
    3. Interpretations of future changes in the Earth's orbit have changed somewhat. It now seems likely (Loutre and Berger, Climatic Change, 46: (1-2) 61-90 2000) that the current interglacial, based purely on natural forcing, would last for an exceptionally long time: perhaps 50,000 years.

    Finally, its clear that there were concerns, perhaps quite strong, in the minds of a number of scientists of the time. And yet, the papers of the time present a clear consensus that future climate change could not be predicted with the knowledge then available. Apparently, the peer review and editing process involved in scientific publication was sufficient to provide a sober view. This episode shows the scientific press in a very good light; and a clear contrast to the lack of any such process in the popular press, then and now.
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=94
    Last edited by vidcc; 12-31-2006 at 08:45 PM.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #114
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Why would such a post need an edit?

    Curious...
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #115
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    So let me get this straight:

    1. It is not acceptable even to be skeptical about global warming, and if you are, you are a heretic.

    2. Even evidence/data which would seem to mitigate the idea of global warming is actually evidence of global warming.

    Great tactic, I wouldn't have thought of that:

    Your views suck, therefore you will not be alloted any data to support them.

    All scientific data henceforth is the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #116
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    The edit was to put the link in for the source and to put the red bold highlight

    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    So let me get this straight:

    1. It is not acceptable even to be skeptical about global warming, and if you are, you are a heretic.

    2. Even evidence/data which would seem to mitigate the idea of global warming is actually evidence of global warming.

    Great tactic, I wouldn't have thought of that:
    Another misrepresentation.

    Yes you can be skeptical about global warning. What you can't do is select your basis on purely "convenient" bits of data and make a misrepresentation. The likes of Will & Crichton do just that. They are not global scientist but they take little snippets of information that their knowledge base doesn't make them qualified to interpret in full context and print it as "solid evidence" that Science has things wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Your views suck, therefore you will not be alloted any data to support them.

    All scientific data henceforth is the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    You can have all the data you wish, but don't expect those that actually understand it to agree with your conclusions.
    It's an interesting point you make though as the current administration has been suppressing data.

    Contrary to what you would have everyone believe the climate science isn't political. It's about finding out the truth, not creating a myth.
    You mentioned contrary evidence, it's not hidden, it's analyzed and reported upon. No scientist denies that things happen, the do however put things in context.

    There is little debate in the scientific community, the debate is with the people that have limited knowledge on the subject so often draw the wrong conclusions.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    So let me get this straight:

    1. It is not acceptable even to be skeptical about global warming, and if you are, you are a heretic.

    2. Even evidence/data which would seem to mitigate the idea of global warming is actually evidence of global warming.

    Great tactic, I wouldn't have thought of that:

    Your views suck, therefore you will not be alloted any data to support them.

    All scientific data henceforth is the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    This already needs amending:

    3. You are allowed neither to understand the data nor say that you do.

    4. You may not proffer experts of your own who understand the data, and no such experts may exist.

    5. Any expert who changes his/her mind as regards global warming forfeits his/her expert status.

    6. Anyone who claims global warming is not exactly what Global Warming International says it is cannot claim expert status, and any academic degrees held by such individuals are invalid.

    All true experts are the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    Last edited by j2k4; 12-31-2006 at 11:44 PM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #118
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Again all wrong or total misrepresentations.

    you are allowed to come to any conclusion you wish, but unless you are in possession of all the relevant facts and know how to interpret them correctly then your conclusions are at best armature and are not informed or qualified.

    We don't call plumbers or authors in court as expert medical witnesses do we?

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    So let me get this straight:

    1. It is not acceptable even to be skeptical about global warming, and if you are, you are a heretic.

    2. Even evidence/data which would seem to mitigate the idea of global warming is actually evidence of global warming.

    Great tactic, I wouldn't have thought of that:

    Your views suck, therefore you will not be alloted any data to support them.

    All scientific data henceforth is the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    This already needs amending:

    3. You are allowed neither to understand the data nor say that you do.

    4. You may not proffer experts of your own who understand the data, and no such experts may exist.

    5. Any expert who changes his/her mind as regards global warming forfeits his/her expert status.

    6. Anyone who claims global warming is not exactly what Global Warming International says it is cannot claim expert status, and any academic degrees held by such individuals are invalid.

    All true experts are the exclusive property of Global Warming International.
    This just crossed the wire...

    Global Warming International wishes it known that the corporation will refund the environmental tithe exacted between the dates of 12/24 and 12/31 of 2006!

    Conservatives will be taxed double for "relevant facts" (as defined by Global Warming International), whether they buy them or not, for the same calender period; the normal, single rate will re-commence the first day of the New Year.

    Happy Holidays and Seasons Greetings from the friendly folks at Global Warming International!!!
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #120
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

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