Got A Call From My Isp Today, About Piracy...

[Switeck]

Originally posted by REALITY+23 May 2003 - 00:59--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (REALITY @ 23 May 2003 - 00:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Jibbler@23 May 2003 - 00:40
If a given file shows up in a simple search, does that make you guilty of filesharing, even if the file has never been downloaded?&nbsp;

I thought that without a connection and being found only in a search, they could not see your IP. Though Switeck said...

they can link your ip to a file WITHOUT making a direct connection to you.

Well, how is this then, on a simple search you can see all the IP&#39;s that easily?[/b][/quote]They CAN&#39;T using Kazaa/Kazaa Lite++ alone -- it requires something LIKE Kazaa Search or DatReader. They probably have their own specialized programs to do so, but are partially foiled by Kazaa&#39;s annoying habit of giving the local ips out in the searches/download DAT files. This is why Kazaa Lite++ has a &#39;feature&#39; of removing local ips from DAT files on exit... because those ips are USELESS for actually finding someone to download from them.

They may not know the ip until they do the trick that I do -- message someone while watching TCPview to see what ip connection is made and then broken during the message transfer. Even blocking them with Peer Guardian in that case isn&#39;t enough to prevent a connection from being ATTEMPTED, which is spottable/loggable with the right software. TCPview is hit-or-miss on very short-lived connects. But Peer Guardian SHOULD be enough to convince them that they no longer have the right IP, due to connection failure -- it will appear the same as a user which has messaging disabled.

Switeck also mentioned...

But if you&#39;re behind a router, the ip they get will probably be 192.168.x.x or 10.x.x.x due to how Kazaa works (a bug/severe limitation of sorts.)

Odd, whay is this, since I am behind a router 192. but when I use many services my true IP always shows, even when using IRC. Is this a flaw of KaZaa only.

It IS a flaw specifically in Kazaa.

Random Nut or one of the other Kazaa Lite++ developers would have to give you some more info about how they could convert your local ip to your real internet ip.

(This is mostly speculation on my part

The reason why RIAA/MPAA/BSA/whoever CAN find someone who&#39;s using a router is because they have a direct internet ip address.
Thus for even a semi-effective anti-piracy spying, they&#39;d need big blocks of ip addresses and many computers -- or a really powerful mainframe and very specialized software... possibly even fasttrack protocol and encryption codes. Also they could only do 1 search at a time -- unless their tools have advanced beyond that -- because Kazaa/KL++ only allows 1 search at a time.

At least in v2.0.0 and older, I used to be able to download files using a file resumer program if I knew the exact ip address and hash of the file. They may use something similar as well...

In addition I read an article that if someone had your IP, they could see your shared files without using nodes or KaZaa to do so, though the privacy patch may stop this.

I think that was only possible with older versions of Kazaa.
Peer Guardian would DEFINITELY block that.

[MagicNakor]

Hmmm.....quote button&#39;s being very strange. No post.

...They may not know the ip until they do the trick that I do ...

Well, they do now.

[Hdestm8r]

Originally posted by Jibbler@23 May 2003 - 00:40
I think that you all under-estimate the tools being used by the RIAA. They are most likely using private IP addresses to download files, just like you or I. PG probably does little to stop them from obtaining your identity. However, Schmiggy hit on the real issue at hand. If a given file shows up in a simple search, does that make you guilty of filesharing, even if the file has never been downloaded?

Yes, having a file show up in a search does make you guilty of file sharing. That is the basic tenant behind what happens when people get a letter from their ISP about a file they are sharing and the RIAA or MPAA scanning your "Shared Folder". Even if NOBODY has ever downloaded it ,you are still offering the file for distribution which is illegal. All they need to do is VERIFY the file is in fact what it claims to be.

The "Verified" hashes that we use make it all the more easier to verify the fact that the file is indeed real and true. It makes the searches also easier as well since the RIAA or MPAA can limit the searches to a particular file. I think you said this as well "Jibbler"

[nueromancer]

You guys are making me nervous.

Is there anyway to block people from DLing from me if they are not sharing any files? It seems that if someone is sharing 0 files, they would be the "monitors." After all, they could not be breaking the law by sharing copyrighted material while they were searching for it.

(Of course that is easy enough to get around...)

[Jibbler]

Originally posted by Jibbler@22 May 2003 - 22:46

Since we are on the subject, verified hashes will probably mean the of Kazaa.&nbsp; Once a file becomes verified, then anyone sharing it would be a potential victim of Media Force&#39;s tactics.&nbsp; In other words, they would not need to download the file from you, as long as they get an exact match for a file you are sharing. B)

Did I just quote myself?

Seriously, are there any lawyers out there willing to comment on the legality of this specific issue? I want to know if finding a source for a verified is enough to be considered copyright infringement.

[RealitY]

Seriously, are there any lawyers out there willing to comment on the legality of this specific issue? I want to know if finding a source for a verified is enough to be considered copyright infringement.

Does it really matter legally, since no one is being charged on this basis alone, nor is anyone near being charged in a matter of this type. The Verizon case is simply a trial to see whats to come to find out if they can force ISP&#39;s to turn us over, but if so, there is little that can be be done with a screen shot of a shared folder, considering that is not proof of actual content or actual distripution. At the moment this is nothing more than a scare campaign, for now.

If they can get ISP&#39;s to turn us over instead of just warning us and track downloaded files, and start putting this all together, one step at a time, then we might need to worry, but that day is yet to arrive.

[RealitY]

They CAN&#39;T using Kazaa/Kazaa Lite++ alone -- it requires something LIKE Kazaa Search or DatReader. They probably have their own specialized programs to do so, but are partially foiled by Kazaa&#39;s annoying habit of giving the local ips out in the searches/download DAT files. This is why Kazaa Lite++ has a &#39;feature&#39; of removing local ips from DAT files on exit... because those ips are USELESS for actually finding someone to download from them.

Well I have noticed when using KaZuperNodes that my IP always shows as the 192. so I guess having router does help, though regarding your trick, does this mean I should turn off chat, and will it stop that from being able to happen. By the way the article I mentioned reading was on the KaZaa Search site, funny you mentioned it.

[Switeck]

Originally posted by MagicNakor+23 May 2003 - 05:45--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MagicNakor @ 23 May 2003 - 05:45)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

...They may not know the ip until they do the trick that I do ...

Well, they do now. [/b]

I said they didn&#39;t know the ip, not that they didn&#39;t know the trick. B)
I meant they HAD to do that trick (or something similar) to actually GET your ip.

It seems by the many &#39;I&#39;ve got a nasty letter from my ISP&#39; that they know how to get ips from nicknames ALL TOO WELL.
However, the methods they use may still be rather labor/computer/bandwidth intensive -- which may be the reason why only a handful of people have reported getting them. The process COULD become so automated that they can find anyone sharing ANY file they care to monitor AND send out a nasty email to the appropriate ISP within under an hour. RIAA already claims to be sending out 1 MILLION warning messages a day, so that sounds like they&#39;re pretty automated already if you believe their claims. BUT, just because they can automate the task of messaging people doesn&#39;t mean they have the bugs worked out of the automated task of finding people&#39;s ips and emailing their ISPs.

Peer Guardian could slow that down if we can start blocking their server and pc farms dedicated to that task.<!--QuoteBegin--REALITY@24 May 2003 - 01:19

They CAN&#39;T using Kazaa/Kazaa Lite++ alone -- it requires something LIKE Kazaa Search or DatReader. They probably have their own specialized programs to do so, but are partially foiled by Kazaa&#39;s annoying habit of giving the local ips out in the searches/download DAT files. This is why Kazaa Lite++ has a &#39;feature&#39; of removing local ips from DAT files on exit... because those ips are USELESS for actually finding someone to download from them.

Well I have noticed when using KaZuperNodes that my IP always shows as the 192. so I guess having router does help, though regarding your trick, does this mean I should turn off chat, and will it stop that from being able to happen. By the way the article I mentioned reading was on the KaZaa Search site, funny you mentioned it.[/quote]Turning chat off won&#39;t help any against their direct download attempts, it would only block their (possible, but doubtful) attempts to &#39;warn&#39; you that you should remove/delete those files immediately.

If they are compiling nicknames+ips+ISP+file lists and checking again hours/days/weeks later before reporting them to your ISP, the router will make you harder to find again -- not that finding someone on Kazaa (fasttrack networks actually) is easy in the first place.

If that article came from the Kazaa Search site, I would consider it DEFINITELY true at one time (for like Kazaa v2.0.0 and earlier) and probably true still.

[RealitY]

The only reason I mentioned turning chat off, was because I got the impression from you, the trick, an IP could be extracted by sending a message etc...

I will say I am glad my ISP carries dynamic IP&#39;s, and by changing the MAC in my router within a minute I have a new IP.

[Switeck]

Originally posted by REALITY+24 May 2003 - 04:04--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (REALITY @ 24 May 2003 - 04:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The only reason I mentioned turning chat off, was because I got the impression from you, the trick, an IP could be extracted by sending a message etc...[/b]

Yes, it can be -- I do it all the time and can do it on just about anyone I see in downloads/uploads/search... EVEN if they have messaging disabled.<!--QuoteBegin--REALITY@24 May 2003 - 04:04
I will say I am glad my ISP carries dynamic IP&#39;s, and by changing the MAC in my router within a minute I have a new IP.[/quote]Jumping ips yourself does little good if an exact date/time/ip/copyright violation is sent to your ISP. You&#39;d have to jump ips every time you get hit by one of their searches to foil their search method -- but by then it might be too late, and even if it worked it would kick you off Kazaa.

It&#39;s no idle threat of RIAA to say they can easily find you -- via link your ip (and time) with your shared files -- they CAN and HAVE done that numerous times. But this is only true in general, and may be FALSE if somehow disrupted by Peer Guardian, routers, proxy servers (although I think they can&#39;t work with Kazaa), or software firewalls.

More than 1 person, me included, has seen many ips blocked by Peer Guardian even when Kazaa *ISN&#39;T* running -- which MAY be normal behavior for Kazaa/Grokster/IMesh when ips of sources for each download is retried. (This is the &#39;excessive networking chatter&#39; that ISPs have cited as a big reason to hate p2p programs running on their networks...)
Likewise, LOCAL unfinished downloads MAY contain blocked ips as sources which when retried will no doubt trip Peer Guardian if you have it running.

REALITY,
You&#39;ve already proved they can message you even though you&#39;re behind a router and on a local ip of 192.

But the REAL acid test is if they can determine someone&#39;s ip if they&#39;re behind a router and how HARD it is for them to do so.
Also, what SOFTWARE are they using?
The more data/information we can gather (legally, of course)... the better.

If ANYONE can spot an incomming unrequested ip connection to your computer that is probably associated with RIAA/MPAA/BSA, find out what the other end is USING to try to connect to you. (you networking security experts/hackers out here will know what this means.)
This will be a relatively difficult task, and may be safer to run from behind a router where 1 computer is on KL++ (and blocking the ip using Peer Guardian/firewall/other) and another computer (which IS able to access that ip). A block comes up on Peer Guardian -- use the other computer to connect back and see what the ip packet response is.