A bit of history you weren't aware of...

[j2k4]

Does it matter?

It's the type of thing you'd keel-haul a conservative for, The.

By the way, what is it you think you know about being an American?

i would never keel haul* anyone over something that happened to their ancestors.

whatever that means *

yeah i compared this particular point to the american-african slave trade because that's how far your ludicrous argument seemed to go back to, so it was a worthy point to say "if you want to chastise muslims for it, your far off ancestors did the same". the history of islam sure is chequered. as far as muslim countries it's been dodgy for several hundred years.

however out of between 1 and 6 million muslims in america about a dozen have allegedly been terrorists, yet your ted sampley tries to draw all muslims as enemies of america and you seem to condone it

I thought my question was quite clear; it does not imply Ellison is a terrorist, I would merely like to hear other's opinions as to the depth of Ellison's intent, and also his understanding of why Jefferson owned a Quran, which was inarguably to learn more about a religion and a people he regarded (again, at that time) as enemies.

That is my intent, nothing more, and if the mere fact I would have such a question about a minority in my country compels you to imply I am a racist, I am sorry - the problem is yours, not mine.

Odd that while you are eager to cry foul when you perceive I am racially biased for asking certain questions, you never seek to apply the same standard to others.

You are quite smug in your ignorance.

[GepperRankins]

i would never keel haul* anyone over something that happened to their ancestors.

whatever that means *

yeah i compared this particular point to the american-african slave trade because that's how far your ludicrous argument seemed to go back to, so it was a worthy point to say "if you want to chastise muslims for it, your far off ancestors did the same". the history of islam sure is chequered. as far as muslim countries it's been dodgy for several hundred years.

however out of between 1 and 6 million muslims in america about a dozen have allegedly been terrorists, yet your ted sampley tries to draw all muslims as enemies of america and you seem to condone it

I thought my question was quite clear; it does not imply Ellison is a terrorist, I would merely like to hear other's opinions as to the depth of Ellison's intent, and also his understanding of why Jefferson owned a Quran, which was inarguably to learn more about a religion and a people he regarded (again, at that time) as enemies.

That is my intent, nothing more, and if the mere fact I would have such a question about a minority in my country compels you to imply I am a racist, I am sorry - the problem is yours, not mine.

Odd that while you are eager to cry foul when you perceive I am racially biased for asking certain questions, you never seek to apply the same standard to others.

You are quite smug in your ignorance.

i never said you were racist. i said your mentality was similar, as in being intolerant of an entire group of people because of your own ignorance.

now i see you were simply saying does ellison realise that jefferson was at war with some muslims. i say does it matter, the majority of minnesota trust him and they chose him to represent them.

[j2k4]

I thought my question was quite clear; it does not imply Ellison is a terrorist, I would merely like to hear other's opinions as to the depth of Ellison's intent, and also his understanding of why Jefferson owned a Quran, which was inarguably to learn more about a religion and a people he regarded (again, at that time) as enemies.

That is my intent, nothing more, and if the mere fact I would have such a question about a minority in my country compels you to imply I am a racist, I am sorry - the problem is yours, not mine.

Odd that while you are eager to cry foul when you perceive I am racially biased for asking certain questions, you never seek to apply the same standard to others.

You are quite smug in your ignorance.

i never said you were racist. i said your mentality was similar, as in being intolerant of an entire group of people because of your own ignorance.

now i see you were simply saying does ellison realise that jefferson was at war with some muslims. i say does it matter, the majority of minnesota trust him and they chose him to represent them.

Oh, so I'm intolerant and ignorant, eh?

Thinks for clearing that up.

I wonder how many Minnesotans are aware of the history of that particular Quran?

Probably alot of them, I would imagine; after all, Minnesota is mostly Muslim, right?

[lynx]

I wonder how many Minnesotans are aware of the history of that particular Quran?

I doubt many of them are aware of that bit of history, and I doubt whether they care either.

I'm pretty damn certain most of them know that Ellison is a Muslim though, and even more importantly I'm pretty certain that they know he isn't a member of the Republican Party either.

I suspect that last bit in particular sticks in your craw.

[j2k4]

I wonder how many Minnesotans are aware of the history of that particular Quran?

I doubt many of them are aware of that bit of history, and I doubt whether they care either.

I'm pretty damn certain most of them know that Ellison is a Muslim though, and even more importantly I'm pretty certain that they know he isn't a member of the Republican Party either.

I suspect that last bit in particular sticks in your craw.

Then you would be wrong.

Minnesota is a perennially liberal state, almost "owned" by the DFL (Democratic Farmer-Labor party).

Republican issues don't even get a hearing, for the most part, a fact that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

What does bother me is none of you think there is the slightest significance to a Muslim's having obviously overlooked the irony of his own actions.

I remember the furor over Ellison's insistence of being sworn in over his "own" Holy book, and a thread in here somewhere to note the noses out of joint because of it.

What I do not recall is taking part in that thread, and, in fact, I remember thinking he should be entitled to swear any way he wanted, as the point (to me, anyway) was that he indicate he looked upon performing the duties of his office with proper solemnity and integrity.

Here now, in an attempt to point up his obvious mis-understanding of Jefferson's reason for owning a Quran, my motivations are questioned.

It seems I have once again violated your socialist protocols.

Oh, well.

[Ava Estelle]

There's one thing for sure j2, had Ellison been a Republican you would not have posted this, that says a lot about you.

Who gives a shit why the book was acquired, a holy book is a holy book, the intentions of the buyer don't detratct from that in the least.

Apart from that, where is the source of the story as to why Jefferson purchased it? Or are you relying on Ted Sampley to do your research for you?

How about another slant on the story?

Jefferson purchased the Koran as a student prior to his even taking the bar exam and after reading another book said to be prejudiced against Islam. And the notion I suspect you'll hear repeated by the MSM, that Jefferson used the Koran to gain insight into the law, appears to be pure academic speculation with a certain anti-theist sounding slant.

The article relates the interest shown by former U.S. president Thomas Jefferson in studying Islam and his reading of the Koran. On Jefferson's visit to the printing office of the Virginia Gazette in the autumn of 1765, he purchased a copy of the Qur'an, specifically, George Sale's English translation, The Koran, Commonly Called the Alcoran of Mohammed. Jefferson's purchase of the Qur'an at the time may have been inspired by his legal studies, too. The interest in natural law he developed as a student encouraged him to pursue his readings in the area as widely as possible. The standard work in the field, Frieherr von Pufendorf's Of the Law and Nature and Nations, gave readers an almost endless number of possible references to track down and thus offered Jefferson an excellent guide to further reading. Though Pufendorf's work reflects a prejudice against Islam characteristic of the time in which it was written, he nonetheless cited precedent from the Qur'an in several instances. Jefferson acquired his Qur'an not long after the injustice of the Stamp Act had forced him to question seriously the heritage of English constitutional law and to seek ultimate answers in the ideas of natural law and natural rights. Reading the Qur'an also let him continue studying the history of religion. Entries he made in his literary commonplace book about the same time he purchased Sale's Koran show that he was seeking to reconcile contradictions between history and scripture that were becoming increasingly apparent to him.


When it comes to running down the Democrats you never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, but never admit to your real intentions, luckily though, we've come to know you only too well over the years.

[zapjb]

I like your style Ava Estelle. Educated & rational.

[GepperRankins]

There's one thing for sure j2, had Ellison been a Republican you would not have posted this, that says a lot about you.

Who gives a shit why the book was acquired, a holy book is a holy book, the intentions of the buyer don't detratct from that in the least.

Apart from that, where is the source of the story as to why Jefferson purchased it? Or are you relying on Ted Sampley to do your research for you?

How about another slant on the story?

Jefferson purchased the Koran as a student prior to his even taking the bar exam and after reading another book said to be prejudiced against Islam. And the notion I suspect you'll hear repeated by the MSM, that Jefferson used the Koran to gain insight into the law, appears to be pure academic speculation with a certain anti-theist sounding slant.

The article relates the interest shown by former U.S. president Thomas Jefferson in studying Islam and his reading of the Koran. On Jefferson's visit to the printing office of the Virginia Gazette in the autumn of 1765, he purchased a copy of the Qur'an, specifically, George Sale's English translation, The Koran, Commonly Called the Alcoran of Mohammed. Jefferson's purchase of the Qur'an at the time may have been inspired by his legal studies, too. The interest in natural law he developed as a student encouraged him to pursue his readings in the area as widely as possible. The standard work in the field, Frieherr von Pufendorf's Of the Law and Nature and Nations, gave readers an almost endless number of possible references to track down and thus offered Jefferson an excellent guide to further reading. Though Pufendorf's work reflects a prejudice against Islam characteristic of the time in which it was written, he nonetheless cited precedent from the Qur'an in several instances. Jefferson acquired his Qur'an not long after the injustice of the Stamp Act had forced him to question seriously the heritage of English constitutional law and to seek ultimate answers in the ideas of natural law and natural rights. Reading the Qur'an also let him continue studying the history of religion. Entries he made in his literary commonplace book about the same time he purchased Sale's Koran show that he was seeking to reconcile contradictions between history and scripture that were becoming increasingly apparent to him.


When it comes to running down the Democrats you never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, but never admit to your real intentions, luckily though, we've come to know you only too well over the years.

lol. j2 is right, the irony is unfathomable

[j2k4]

There's one thing for sure j2, had Ellison been a Republican you would not have posted this, that says a lot about you.

Who gives a shit why the book was acquired, a holy book is a holy book, the intentions of the buyer don't detratct from that in the least.

Apart from that, where is the source of the story as to why Jefferson purchased it? Or are you relying on Ted Sampley to do your research for you?

How about another slant on the story?

Jefferson purchased the Koran as a student prior to his even taking the bar exam and after reading another book said to be prejudiced against Islam. And the notion I suspect you'll hear repeated by the MSM, that Jefferson used the Koran to gain insight into the law, appears to be pure academic speculation with a certain anti-theist sounding slant.

The article relates the interest shown by former U.S. president Thomas Jefferson in studying Islam and his reading of the Koran. On Jefferson's visit to the printing office of the Virginia Gazette in the autumn of 1765, he purchased a copy of the Qur'an, specifically, George Sale's English translation, The Koran, Commonly Called the Alcoran of Mohammed. Jefferson's purchase of the Qur'an at the time may have been inspired by his legal studies, too. The interest in natural law he developed as a student encouraged him to pursue his readings in the area as widely as possible. The standard work in the field, Frieherr von Pufendorf's Of the Law and Nature and Nations, gave readers an almost endless number of possible references to track down and thus offered Jefferson an excellent guide to further reading. Though Pufendorf's work reflects a prejudice against Islam characteristic of the time in which it was written, he nonetheless cited precedent from the Qur'an in several instances. Jefferson acquired his Qur'an not long after the injustice of the Stamp Act had forced him to question seriously the heritage of English constitutional law and to seek ultimate answers in the ideas of natural law and natural rights. Reading the Qur'an also let him continue studying the history of religion. Entries he made in his literary commonplace book about the same time he purchased Sale's Koran show that he was seeking to reconcile contradictions between history and scripture that were becoming increasingly apparent to him.


When it comes to running down the Democrats you never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, but never admit to your real intentions, luckily though, we've come to know you only too well over the years.

Hmmm.

I see no attribution, and this is certainly not your own work product.

Would it be possible to question it's providence, or it's author's intent.

Most importantly, it does not give lie to that which Sampley recounts; to imply that it does wouldn't be "sane" or "rational".

Jefferson educated himself about Islam, and the Marines still went to Tripoli.

As to the Democrat/Republican disease, you suffer from a version of it yourself, do you not?

It's that nasty old shoe/foot problem you've suffered from during your tenure here.

BTW-

If you want to wade through the archive to find which of us has blasted more member of his own party, I'll win that one hands down, too, so best leave it alone, I think.

[Ava Estelle]

Hmmm.

I see no attribution, and this is certainly not your own work product.

Would it be possible to question it's providence, or it's author's intent.

Most importantly, it does not give lie to that which Sampley recounts; to imply that it does wouldn't be "sane" or "rational".

Jefferson educated himself about Islam, and the Marines still went to Tripoli.

As to the Democrat/Republican disease, you suffer from a version of it yourself, do you not?

It's that nasty old shoe/foot problem you've suffered from during your tenure here.

You just hate being caught out, don't you?

You jumped in with both feet blazing because it was anti-Democrat, you did no research, you didn't check the story, you just took the word of a proven liar.

You say, ".. it does not give lie to that which Sampley recounts ..", yes it does, in Sampley's article Jefferson was president when he acquired the book to study Muslims.

There is no other account of this, only from Sampley. Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

If you want to see other accounts of the Quran in question, study the Jefferson archives, as I did.

BTW-
If you want to wade through the archive to find which of us has blasted more member of his own party, I'll win that one hands down, too, so best leave it alone, I think.

What party would that be, I don't have a party, I merely point out your one sided posts with regards Democrats.


It's time to step up to the plate j2, and admit you fucked up good, a simple apology and the promise to be more careful in the future will suffice, no-one wants to see you humiliated.