A poll of representative Muslims...

[thewizeard]

hmf, the eagle has decended on it's pray, with talons clutching and piercing soft pink flesh.

[Biggles]

I rather liked that piece J2. It was actually less alarmist and rather more readable than some pieces you have directed us to.

I am not surprised by the findings but I think they require some careful analysis. What percentage of the US population would have supported the actions of the US in Abu Graib or the blowing up of offices in Gaza in which both Hamas and civilian Palestinians die?

Reactionary responses to polls and actually carrying violent acts are quite different.There is quite a step from having a gut reaction to a poll question and strapping explosives to oneself.

The extremists do exist and although small in number they are a real threat and we must interdict their plans. However, part of that interdiction is to not to alienate the wider Muslim population. Also part of that fight is not to let them alter our lifestyle. The less impact a terrorist group has on our lives the less they are deemed to be a torch bearer for that cause. The more we flap about their aims and actions the greater justification they feel they have for their insane acts.

Edit: as an afterthought I should say I watched a programme last night about women in Afghanistan. It was rather depressing to see that so little has been achieved and that only about 30% of the promised aid ever materialised. It would seem that we had a plan for Afghanistan that in part involved unseating the Taliban and in part recovering the country from the position of a failed State. I am not sure whether we just bit off more than we could chew, took our eye off the ball with Iraq or simply never intended to keep our promises but such events play into the hands of the radicals. If we had done one job well we might have more credibility.

[MaxOverlord]

Reactionary responses to polls and actually carrying violent acts are quite different.There is quite a step from having a gut reaction to a poll question and strapping explosives to oneself.

The extremists do exist and although small in number they are a real threat and we must interdict their plans. However, part of that interdiction is to not to alienate the wider Muslim population. Also part of that fight is not to let them alter our lifestyle. The less impact a terrorist group has on our lives the less they are deemed to be a torch bearer for that cause. The more we flap about their aims and actions the greater justification they feel they have for their insane acts.

I think your first point is a good one. That being said...

I know your not suggesting we ignore actions. However, in order to adapt you must alter your lifestyle to whatever degree needed in order to adjust to new and impending threats. This does not mean living in constant fear of course. I do agree we should not alienate the larger Muslim population.

This does not include pandering to whatever "rights" they feel are being manipulated. We live in a free and open society and the opportunity to manipulate these freedoms is a powerful thing. This is a very smart enemy and they will use our freedoms of speech and expression and so on and so forth against us.

[vidcc]

You mean during the Clinton administration?

What if the poll was "taken" in 1998? 1997? 1996? 1995? 1994? 1993? 1992?

How about 1990? 1985?

Or very late 1979...maybe early 1980?

You can take any point before the pre-emptive on a hunch policy started. I chose that date as being close to before that point. The date or president doesn't matter as long as it's before that point. You can set the date to just before we went into Iraq if you like.

Does it matter what we think they are doing?

Yes it does, so it's important that we actually try to figure out why they are doing it, even if we don't think the reason is justified. I hold us to a higher standard than everyone else.

If his intent was to publicize the polling data, what possible use would his "understanding" have served, other than to assuage your concern?

Because he gave opinions on the results. The design was to not just inspire fear of terrorist, but to demonise all Muslims. This is akin to putting you on a terror watch list because of Eric Rudolf being a Christian and many Christians sympathized with the reasons he did what he did.

Right as to Giuliani, wrong as to Paul, who is a simplistic ass.

Nutshell
Rudy: "they attacked us because we have religious freedoms" (So it was our fault?)
Ron: "they attacked us because we were in their land" (Osama even gave this as a reason)

Rudy is using propaganda, pure and simple. The same propaganda the radical islamist use against us. They may not like our religious beliefs or our culture, but that's NOT why they attacked us. And if we continue to refuse to acknowledge their reasons, agree with them or not, then we will solve nothing.

Propaganda inspires emotions, I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for solutions.

Before you respond to this post, vid, revisit your opening salvo in which you question the validity of the poll's conclusions based on when it was taken, thence proceed to state Ron Paul was "correct".

Ron Paul wasn't saying he agreed with their reason, he wasn't saying we deserved it, he was pointing out what their reason was. It doesn't matter that you think we were justified doing what we were doing, or even that you don't feel they were justified doing what they did. The fact remains that those were their reasons.

And my "opening salvo" was in regards to how ordinary Muslims feel about America now as opposed to then, NOT how the extremists (who use religion as a tool garner empathy for their deeds) felt about us. I was not questioning the validity of the responses at all, I was questioning the difference between then and now.

[thewizeard]

The truth is; sooner or later, The Islam will try to propagate their religion to the whole world, By peaceful means or by jihad.

In Christian areas Mosques are rising against the backdrop of green fields and cows chewing the Grass.

Sooner or later..this religion, slowly spreading as a cancer, to a God, that has long forgotten mankind. With enticing offers of worldly pleasures in Paradise for killing innocent men, women and children, robbing them from a right to freely worship the God of their own choice One thing is for sure, Allah will be less pleased with this ideology than certain rebels think.

I think also if a Muslim wishes to pay his respects to Allah or worship in a Mosque..good OK, go and do that in Islamic country.

We don't want your blood and fear taking root in our precious soil. It's time to act firmly, yet resolutely.

Any one who disbelieves me, should check the coming "Honor Killing" thread..concerning a young innocent, beautiful young child of 17 years, filled with dreams...
So it's time to act, not time to talk any more. Stem the tide, in 5 years it could be your daughter being stoned and kicked to death by religious young followers of Mohammad's Allah.

[ilw]

We must ask ourselves which is stronger? The desire to perpetuate life or the seeking of death? This is a core component and should not be under-estimated.

we must also ask ourselves who has a bigger military budget,

Ah, but then we have to ask how we came to afford such a big military budget, you see?

The argument becomes circular in short order.

not quite sure i follow, i was just being facetious because i thought the comment about good overcoming evil was a bit...

Edit: as an afterthought I should say I watched a programme last night about women in Afghanistan. It was rather depressing to see that so little has been achieved and that only about 30% of the promised aid ever materialised. It would seem that we had a plan for Afghanistan that in part involved unseating the Taliban and in part recovering the country from the position of a failed State. I am not sure whether we just bit off more than we could chew, took our eye off the ball with Iraq or simply never intended to keep our promises but such events play into the hands of the radicals. If we had done one job well we might have more credibility.

Biggles, correct me if i'm wrong as i didn't see the programme, but is this not more a tribal/cultural thing than a muslim thing? ditto to the honour killing. Not saying that the occurrence of these things isn't coincidental (literal meaning) with a muslim majority population, but that argument is lacking the cause/effect path to islam.


As to the spread of islam mentioned by max & wizeard, i totally don't understand where you're coming from in implying that its sinister as i doubt either of you would think the same of christianity. however, the pope just went to brazil to try and stamp out the alternative religions which are gathering momentum there and catholics are pushing hard to spread their religion in growing markets such as Africa and Asia. Personally the growth of religion is a bit depressing to me, but both christianity and islam are proselytising religions i.e. they have put an onus on their believers to try and save others by persuading them to see the light. Naturally if these religions are unconstrained they will spread like bacteria (cancer?) along an exponential growth path.

[MaxOverlord]

we must also ask ourselves who has a bigger military budget,

Ah, but then we have to ask how we came to afford such a big military budget, you see?

The argument becomes circular in short order.

not quite sure i follow, i was just being facetious because i thought the comment about good overcoming evil was a bit...

Edit: as an afterthought I should say I watched a programme last night about women in Afghanistan. It was rather depressing to see that so little has been achieved and that only about 30% of the promised aid ever materialised. It would seem that we had a plan for Afghanistan that in part involved unseating the Taliban and in part recovering the country from the position of a failed State. I am not sure whether we just bit off more than we could chew, took our eye off the ball with Iraq or simply never intended to keep our promises but such events play into the hands of the radicals. If we had done one job well we might have more credibility.

Biggles, correct me if i'm wrong as i didn't see the programme, but is this not more a tribal/cultural thing than a muslim thing? ditto to the honour killing. Not saying that the occurrence of these things isn't coincidental (literal meaning) with a muslim majority population, but that argument is lacking the cause/effect path to islam.


As to the spread of islam mentioned by max & wizeard, i totally don't understand where you're coming from in implying that its sinister as i doubt either of you would think the same of christianity. however, the pope just went to brazil to try and stamp out the alternative religions which are gathering momentum there and catholics are pushing hard to spread their religion in growing markets such as Africa and Asia. Personally the growth of religion is a bit depressing to me, but both christianity and islam are proselytising religions i.e. they have put an onus on their believers to try and save others by persuading them to see the light. Naturally if these religions are unconstrained they will spread like bacteria (cancer?) along an exponential growth path.

Never said good verses evil(your words).
Last I checked the Pope didn't threaten beheading or the exercise of self-martyrdom to kill the infidels. Bit of a difference there.
I suppose if you despise all religion you would see no good in any practice.

[j2k4]

...both christianity and islam are proselytising religions i.e. they have put an onus on their believers to try and save others by persuading them to see the light. Naturally if these religions are unconstrained they will spread like bacteria (cancer?) along an exponential growth path.

In case you've missed it, Ian, Christianity has done away with the sundry tortuous physical impositions (including the death-dealing), and only the odd bit of proselytizing survives here and there, while Islam perpetuates the idea that "death to the infidel" (infidel defined as anyone who does not embrace Islam) is part and parcel of their religion.

As has been noted, beheadings have become the signature of those who are carrying the Islamic "ball" these days, yet people such as yourself continue to play the "moral equivalence" card in order to attack the U.S. (whose foreign policy is not tied to Christianity, I think you'll find) and excuse/omit mention of the barbarities committed by portable Islam's leading edge.

It is one thing to observe such a failing in a run-of-the-mill Muslim, but a non-religious person failing to notice the difference in order to concentrate his consternation on one side and avoid criticizing the other is, well...curious.

[MaxOverlord]

...both christianity and islam are proselytising religions i.e. they have put an onus on their believers to try and save others by persuading them to see the light. Naturally if these religions are unconstrained they will spread like bacteria (cancer?) along an exponential growth path.

In case you've missed it, Ian, Christianity has done away with the sundry tortuous physical impositions (including the death-dealing), and only the odd bit of proselytizing survives here and there, while Islam perpetuates the idea that "death to the infidel" (infidel defined as anyone who does not embrace Islam) is part and parcel of their religion.

As has been noted, beheadings have become the signature of those who are carrying the Islamic "ball" these days, yet people such as yourself continue to play the "moral equivalence" card in order to attack the U.S. (whose foreign policy is not tied to Christianity, I think you'll find) and excuse/omit mention of the barbarities committed by portable Islam's leading edge.

It is one thing to observe such a failing in a run-of-the-mill Muslim, but a non-religious person failing to notice the difference in order to concentrate his consternation on one side and avoid criticizing the other is, well...curious.

j2k4. You can't argue with the elite!

[MaxOverlord]

hmf, the eagle has decended on it's pray, with talons clutching and piercing soft pink flesh.

Sounds like something John Ashcroft might sing.