Gun Ownership

[ilw]

Originally posted by j2k4@14 July 2003 - 18:35
Although economic ills always indicate higher crime rates, there is no similarly specific indicator as to murder rate.

I would hazard a guess that a high crime rate (specifically in a country with lax gun control) would have a definite and obvious link to a higher murder rate. albeit that premeditated murder would probably not rise substantially.

THe statistics i mentioned do bear thinking about ie 3.4 times higher suicide rate and 72% greater chance of being shot & killed if you own a gun in your house. Admittedly the obvious defence to this is that u know the stats so u can make your own decision. But i would argue that maybe this is a case where it would be better to protect people from themselves, I'm thinking that the argument follows along hte lines of legal requirements for wearing seatbelts and crash helmets.

[Ron]

When linking the murder rate to wealth and poverty, you could also think about WHY the killings happened.
Could it be that poor people try to defend what little they have, and therefore get killed, while wealthy ones have insurance, and don't give a f*ck?
I don't think you usually get shot if you don't struggle.
Just a thought.....

[lynx]

Originally posted by j2k4@14 July 2003 - 19:25
lynx-

I provided the link merely to backstop my point about thw Swiss requirement of an armed male citizenry. If I agreed with the entire content of the page, or sought to use the information contained therein to prove something else I would have cut-and-pasted the entire page.

While you obviously disagree with the content of the page in question, do you aver it fails for my purposes?

In the future, I will devote more time to the search for "non-objectionable" web-pages, just for you.

My point is that the article has so many distortions and inaccuracies, how are we to believe much of what is said, yet I would suggest you presented it in the hope that some people would accept it's statements without question.

Whilst I accept that it is a requirement on Swiss citizens to keep their rifle (or whatever), I doubt whether the statements about other weapons being sold off without any form of registration would stand up to examination and as such this undermines your argument.

[Ron]

Well, I don't think cops should have guns either!!
This video explains why. Keep your eye on the lady cop on the left.


OK, maybe this is not so serious, but it is/was an actual event.
And if it was you o the ground, you would take it pretty serious, I imagine.

[Ron]

Damn, doesn't work like that.
Maybe going to http://www.ebaumsworld.com/emovies.shtml will.
It's on the second row, called "negligence".

[ilw]

I bet he shat himself, i think i would have. But seriously i agree, I personally love the fact that the UK police aren't armed (though in the future i think they're getting more and more non-lethal weaponry)

[jii_m]

In any case, my point was this:

Lots of guns+relative wealth=high murder rate in the case of the U.S.

Fewer guns+relative wealth=low murder rate in the cases of Germany and Britain.

Fewer guns+relative poverty=high murder rate: Russia, Brazil.

Lots of guns+relative wealth=low murder rate: Israel, Switzerland.

When viewed logically, these facts countenance no circumstance which allows a conclusion other than that something apart from the presence of convenient weaponry is responsible for a high or low murder rate.

Hmm... it would seem so but hey read this:

http://www.wfsa.net/adobe_documents/Cross_...ional_Study.PDF

and then this:

http://www.ippnw.org/HelsinkiCukier.pdf

and tell me what you think?

Cukier makes some interesting points in her paper. IMO


Btw. I'm NOT totally against gun ownership. I'm finnish and we have lot's of guns
around here but not much gun violence. (Axe or a knife are still considered
traditional tools for dispatching your drinking buddy ... )
But if the number of gun related deaths starts to grow seriously in the future...

We had an interesting case just recently when member of parliament
Tony Halme accidently discharged a handgun in his apartment in Helsinki
while being very much under the influence of alcohol. Luckily nobody got
hurt though. (he didn't even have a permit for it...) Check his website for
laughs. (sorry in finnish only but just look at the pictures, not your average politician )

http://www.tonyhalme.net

In the mean while I think we have good enough system right now.
(getting a firearms permit is not a trivial matter)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by lynx@14 July 2003 - 14:02
My point is that the article has so many distortions and inaccuracies, how are we to believe much of what is said, yet I would suggest you presented it in the hope that some people would accept it's statements without question.

Whilst I accept that it is a requirement on Swiss citizens to keep their rifle (or whatever), I doubt whether the statements about other weapons being sold off without any form of registration would stand up to examination and as such this undermines your argument.

Lynx-

Please read the following very carefully.

I was challenged on the validity of my claim as to the Swiss/mandatory arms issue.

I sought to find confirmation of my supposition, and in so doing, selected the very first site I googled, and lo and behold, the very first sentence was exactly what I was looking for.

I scanned the rest of the page and noted it's content, but used it anyway, as, for my purposes, it fit the bill, and I was a bit pressed for time.

There you have the sum total of my intent.

To attribute other motivation to that which I have clearly stated is, or at least should be, beneath you; however I can't be sure as I don't know if you are physically as short as your urge to avoid the nit-pick.

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by j2k4+15 July 2003 - 04:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 15 July 2003 - 04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-lynx@14 July 2003 - 14:02
My point is that the article has so many distortions and inaccuracies, how are we to believe much of what is said, yet I would suggest you presented it in the hope that some people would accept it&#39;s statements without question.

Whilst I accept that it is a requirement on Swiss citizens to keep their rifle (or whatever), I doubt whether the statements about other weapons being sold off without any form of registration would stand up to examination and as such this undermines your argument.

Lynx-

Please read the following very carefully.

I was challenged on the validity of my claim as to the Swiss/mandatory arms issue.

I sought to find confirmation of my supposition, in in so doing, selected the very first site I googled, and lo and behold, the very first sentence was exactly what I was looking for.

I scanned the rest of the page and noted it&#39;s content, but used it anyway, as, for my purposes, it fit the bill, and I was a bit pressed for time.

There you have the sum total of my intent.

To attribute other motivation to that which I have clearly stated is, or at least should be, beneath you; however I can&#39;t be sure as I don&#39;t know if you are physically as short as your urge to avoid the nit-pick. [/b][/quote]
beware anyone who uses "whilst" in his posts, thats what i say

[j2k4]

Yes; I&#39;ll have to also mention same to Clocker.