Gun Ownership

[clocker]

Jeez, four pages of worthwhile discussion and I just find it. This is what I get for working on my computer rather than with it.

Anyway, I agree with Hobbes about the relative uselessness of hurling statistics in defense of what is (at least in America) a very emotional issue.

Personally, I dislike guns and have no use for them in any form. But that's a purely emotional stance and I can't justify it with any numbers or even personal anecdotes. Just don't like 'em.

What I do find odd however, is the unwavering position of gun fans re: licensing and ownership requirements.
In the US we require more training to operate a moped than to own a gun.
Why is this?

[myfiles3000]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 July 2003 - 03:43
In regard to this thread as a whole, statistics can be used to prove anything, if you hide the pertinent variables well enough. That is why I find a topic, which really relates to human nature, discussed in terms of statistics to be a lost cause. No way it can be solved this way, as both sides have plenty of wonderful numbers to throw around.

hobbes, you raise very good points. But you'll have to tear from my cold rigor-mortisized hands my faith in proper statistics. While i agree that stats can be marshalled in almost any direction, a critical thinker with a decent level of numeracy can see through the crap 99 times out of 100. I keep hearing this summer how "stats can prove anything", and it bothers me that people seem to think there's no room for absolutism, that its all one big relativistic slippery slope. its just not true for the majority of issues out there, and if you look carefully enough, I would say you'll find differences in ideology, not perception of reality.

And perception of reality is really what it boils down to for me -- individual human consciousness is about as encompassing and objective as a late night infomercial. Statistics are our friends, as long as we treat them like ladies and gentlemen.

[hobbes]

Amen to intellectual honesty, but so often people with an "agenda" violate this enhance their stance. The trick with statistics is in figuring out what they are NOT telling you.

I also want to clarify that sometimes people don't intentionally misuse them, they are just unaware of certain relevant cultural issues from which they gleaned their numbers.

The example here was the high ownership of guns in Switzerland, but low murder rate. The enlightment was that although many people own guns, they are not in physical possession of them. This is a relevant and enlighting fact that I would not have been aware of if the numbers had been posted as part of a table comparing gun ownership and murder rate among different countries.

Anyway, I know the subject of appropriate data analysis and usage piques you a little, as this relates to your area of expertise,and we, I, am just just an amatuer here. I know I bristle a little when people start babbling about something I am well versed in.

[ilw]

OK before we descend into statistical analysis and levels of significance etc (i'm so glad I have no more stats maths classes) . heres a question for the americans:
Would you prefer it if your country was almost entirely clear of guns (ie gun control like in Britain) or the situation as it is now? (Basically if u could remove all the guns from peoples houses and the vast majority of guns from the criminal element, would u?)

[junkyardking]

If you havn't seen The movie Bowling for Columbine i suggest you do, in the later half it compares the US with Canada, now Canada has alot of guns and gun ownership but it is relativly a safe place to live with people even leaving there doors unlocked, the conclusion that Michael Moore came to was that the US had a culture largly based on fear and if you look at it from an outside view that's what you see.


In Australia we have Gun Control but years ago a massacar of about 20 people happened at Port Arthur, Tasmania, the federal government really cracked down and banned semi-automatic rifles and what not, and now there doing it for semi auto hand guns after a couple of people got killed at a uni in Melbourne, Victoria.

It's real sad the US government does'nt do the same, as shootings at workplaces and schools have become a regular ocurrence over there.

[3RA1N1AC]

if you've never seen a movie called "Red Dawn," it's worth a viewing just to see the sort of paranoid fantasy that inspires pro-gun people in america to devote so much time & energy to their cause.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by junkyardking@16 July 2003 - 09:28
If you havn't seen The movie Bowling for Columbine i suggest you do, in the later half it compares the US with Canada, now Canada has alot of guns and gun ownership but it is relativly a safe place to live with people even leaving there doors unlocked...

Perhaps you ought not to believe everything you watch.

[junkyardking]

Originally posted by MagicNakor+16 July 2003 - 09:54--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MagicNakor @ 16 July 2003 - 09:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-junkyardking@16 July 2003 - 09:28
If you havn&#39;t seen The movie Bowling for Columbine i suggest you do, in the later half it compares the US with Canada, now Canada has alot of guns and gun ownership but it is relativly a safe place to live with people even leaving there doors unlocked...

Perhaps you ought not to believe everything you watch.

[/b][/quote]
I never said i did, but the people seemed sincere.

[lynx]

I just tried to get some &#39;stats&#39; from the ATF, but it was rather a waste of time.

(OT for a moment, the ATF site doesn&#39;t work with Netscape, maybe the Justice department should look into that).

The sort of thing I was looking for was numbers of firearms sold etc, but although I found something along those lines (number manufactured and number exported), it was unclear if this included military use.

One of the interesting items was the number of machine guns. The excess of manufactured over exported (and therefore presumably for &#39;home&#39; use) for the last 4 reported years is as follows:

1998 >20000
1999 235 (wtf?)
2000 >35000
2001 >46000

Unfortunately, without knowing whether this includes military acquirements the figures are useless, but if they do not then this should be very worrying to everyone.

But the really interesting fact is that you can find out who manufactured and exported all those firearms with the exception of machine guns.
So when your loved ones are mown down by a crazed lunatic with a machine gun, you can&#39;t find out who manufactured it and released it onto the general public.

I think someone has a guilty conscience.

[lynx]

Originally posted by junkyardking+16 July 2003 - 11:35--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (junkyardking @ 16 July 2003 - 11:35)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by MagicNakor@16 July 2003 - 09:54
<!--QuoteBegin-junkyardking

@16 July 2003 - 09:28
If you havn&#39;t seen The movie Bowling for Columbine i suggest you do, in the later half it compares the US with Canada, now Canada has alot of guns and gun ownership but it is relativly a safe place to live with people even leaving there doors unlocked...

Perhaps you ought not to believe everything you watch.

I never said i did, but the people seemed sincere. [/b][/quote]
They are actors, they are acting sincere, it isn&#39;t real.