Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[ilw]

yeah, I definitely wasn't saying it was any better to die one way than another and as you say they are still victims of the attack, but that was i think the 3rd time Billy quoted the figure 'his mates told him' and although i ignored it before, i thought it deserved to be put straight. And even if the numbers are for total number killed directly and indirectly they are still hearsay (though i'm willing to believe they are in the right sort of scale).

[Rat Faced]

Trouble is, Afganistan was never big on registration of Births Deaths and Marriages..i would have thought.

And a Cluster Bombs dont really leave a lot left...and its some awfully rugged country.


No one will ever know..

[ilw]

with cluster pellets around its not much consolation that no landmines were used in either of the 2 wars

[hobbes]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@10 September 2003 - 19:07
200
2000
20,000
200,000

It doesnt really matter anyway. They wear turbans and they arent white. Anything and everything is acceptable in the 'war on terror'.

Exactly, we are Jew lovers, who laugh as missles blow up innocent Palestinians. (Remember this line when you were the "impartial observer, caring about people not sides") We hate Islam and blow up turban heads at will.

That's it in a nutshell, you are filled with infinite and impotent rage and hatred towards the white man. You repeatedly accuse us (your forum members)of not caring about life despite repeated assertions otherwise. You just seem to erase it in your memory as it is not convenient to your conclusion.

The quotes come from a different topic (US/Israel) not 9/11, but the theme remains the same.

EBP: 9/9/03

You've made your views clear in other threads clocker.

A dead Palestinian civilian means nothing to you. A dead Israeli civilian is a tragedy.

Let us review some other threads then:

EBP:
Perhaps neither side wants peace, but lets not pretend this is an American action film where the goodies wear uniforms and act impeccably whilst the baddies wear turbans and are pure evil

EBP: I could explain why extremists like yourself (clocker) on both sides are the main stumbling block to peace

Clocker an extremist- that is a delusional statement to say the least.

EBP @ clocker: If you would stop justifying murdering women and children I might have a little more respect for your posts.

EBP: This is going all over the place... lets get down to the core issue. This is my argument.

1) Nazis killing innocent Jews was wrong.
2) Palestinian terrorists killing Israeli civilians is wrong.
3) Israeli troops killing Palestinian civilians is wrong.

Clockers response:
That is not an argument, that is a statement.
I agree with all three.

Clocker: I don't think that anyone has disagreed with the statement that the murder of civilians is wrong.

Decry their actions (the palestinians )as loudly as the Israeli's and I don't see any disagreement at all.

EBP:
2) Why are you so determined that Israel should continue to kill innocent people?

Heres a new one for you.

3) Are you getting round to the point that the only way forward that doesnt involve the destruction of Israel is for Israel to continue killing Palestinian civilians till there are none left? No Palestinians no problem? Is that your attitude?

Apart from that you seem to be inferring the good old tried and tested ethnic cleansing method. I hope Im mistaken in that inference.

Clocker:
2.) I have never said in a single post that they should. I defy you to find a direct quote from my writing that does say that.

3.) No. Refer to #2.

@clocker

Try and imagine, if you can, a world reversed....

Palestine is the one favoured by the USA. Jewish people are murdered in their hundreds as laughing Palestinians drop missiles from attack helicopters onto crowded streets. Helicopters and missiles paid for by US tax dollars of course.

Clocker responds:
The Israelis are laughing as they fire missles?

This single post characterizes your entire approach to this thread

My own perspective:

I think both sides are just a bunch of lunatics, killing each other to defend their belief in a loving God. The irony is so bitterly rich.

The bottom line is that religion is the only thing that matters to you. That is what this is about, not right or wrong. Had the entire 9/11 attack come from Boliva,the United States would have responded in the same fashion. Had we invaded that country, your name would be nowhere in this forum. We respond to the attack, not the religion/culture.

I work with a bunch of Turban heads, as you call them. Guess what, no problem. They are free to practice their religion as they see fit, no intra-office conflicts.

Since that is your bottom line, the hatred of Americans toward Turban heads, no amount of data or evidence contrary can sway you, as the conclusion is drawn.

I say we (USA) will kill anyone (Germans, Vietnamese, Japanese, South Americans, etc.) regardless of nationality. This really wasn't much of an issue for you until it hit your people. Now you are convinced that this is all about hatred of Muslims. And this bond you have is the only reason you care at all.

I can sympathize with you anger, it must be difficult having another country control your destiny, particularly when its agendas are different from yours. However, I have learned that if your goal is a fruitful discussion to help educate those who may not have your perspective or knowledge, you win more people over with sugar, than vinegar. Spitting venom only draws a defensive response.

I find the hate issue a difficult impass to overcome as from this logical exchange cannot be born.

I do respect the knowledge and intelligence of many posters here, I just caution you to use you weapons properly.

[evilbagpuss]

@hobbes..

Y'know if I was a muslim living in Asia your post might actually mean something.

I am actually a white aetheist British male, so Im afraid your assumptions are way off the mark. Imagine! A white British male taking this viewpoint! Unbelievable eh?

Now getting down to the Israel issue.

Clocker states that he is against killing innocent Palestinians yet constantly defends the Israeli armies right to do so. So clearly..we have something of a contradiction here. The 2 views cannot co-exist.

As for my venom.. I admit.. I get frustrated at the constant support from the uber-patriots for US foreign policy no matter what it is, no matter how compelling the arguments against it. Its all a matter of Anti-Americanism etc etc insert excuses here.

These uber-patriots will be waving the flag muttering catchy phrases about defending freedom and fighting terror while the recently built concentration camp next door billows smoke from its chimneys. There is no doubt in my mind as to the truth of this.

As for the "laughing Palestinians" post. Havent you seen the news pictures of Israeli soldiers smiling and having their picture taken by a colleague whilst they stand over the body of a dead Palestinian? "Laughing Israelis" is not far from the truth. If you have the guts to see it, say it and handle the fallout.

Now the "turban heads" issue... they are the new communists for the next 50 years. The new excuse to do whatever the US wishes to do. Perhaps you can explain why the deaths of a few thousand innocent Americans causes more of an outcry than the deaths of a few thousand innocent Afghani and Iraqi civilians and many many more innocent Palestinians over a 30 year period?

The only answer is that their lives are not percieved to be as valuable. Why else would the West give Israel the weapons to continue these atrocities even after so many UN resolutions condemning them? Even when their Prime Minister is a known war criminal!!

I know its not fashionable to say so.. but there is the world today, like it or not.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@10 September 2003 - 18:09


These uber-patriots will be waving the flag muttering catchy phrases about defending freedom and fighting terror while the recently built concentration camp next door billows smoke from its chimneys. There is no doubt in my mind as to the truth of this.

Very catchy.*
Clocker has consistently stated that he supports Israel's right to defend it's existence.
This clearly calls for military action and since the Palestinian "freedom fighters" chosen battleground is among their fellow countymen then I would expect civilian casualties.
I would also lay the blame for those deaths at the feet of the very men who's chosen tactics involve using teenage suicide bombers and hiding out amongst the very civilian population they claim to be fighting for.

That's the way I see the world today...like it or not.

Edit: Actually, EBP, the fact that "there is no doubt in your mind" about this particular piece of claptrap only shows that you are as prone to self-delusion as you accuse your detractors of being.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by clocker
Clocker has consistently stated that he supports Israel's right to defend it's existence.

Clocker has consistently argued that dropping missiles on residential areas knowing full well it will cause massive loss of innocent life is an acceptable tactic.

Case closed.

I would also lay the blame for those deaths at the feet of the very men who's chosen tactics involve using teenage suicide bombers and hiding out amongst the very civilian population they claim to be fighting for.

An interesting 'point', about the terrorists "hiding out amongst the.. civilian population"

IRA men used to live in Irish towns among Irish civilians. Spanish ETA terrorists live among Spanish civilians. This 'tactic' is nothing new. (You expect them to live in a seperate apartment with a cross hair painted on the top?)

It doesnt justify dropping missiles on these areas.

This has been my whole point all along. This is why Clocker gets so upset.

How dare I say this!! Fighting terrorism without murdering women and children?? Heresy I say! Heresy!

NB I have noted that the Israelis are now bulldozing the homes of suicide bombers in order to punish their families. I believe the Nazis used similar 'tactics' against the French resistance.. how ironic.

Like I said before everything and anything is acceptable in this 'war on terror'.

[hobbes]

Fair enough, my bad. I just found your anger so intense that I made a leap to explain it. Some of the other people in your court are muslims living abroad.

I guess we all approach a thread with our "spins" and since it would be impossible to explain every aspect of our posts, we try to lead each other across the stream the best we can. That leaves certain areas where the reader must jump from stone to stone as he follows the arguement. Based on our personal spin's, we may chose different rocks. So once completely across the stream, different readers my find themselves on different parts of the bank, and both spot may be different from where the author wanted you to land. I think this applies well to your exchange with him. I simply have a different interpretation of his intent.


When Clocker states that he is pro -Israel, and he can correct me on his own, I do not feel that he means that Israel is correct or righteous, but rather that he has more touchstones with Jewish people. Jewish people are our friends and neighbors, they are generally well educated and have many people in the entertainment business. Who can hate Jerry Seinfeld, Jon Stewart, etc. These associations are akin to linking a beautiful women with a soft drink.

I don't know a single Palestinian, the only ones I see are on the news throwing rocks wearing robes on the news. Arafat looks like a used car salesman. The common perception is that their religion is intolerant of others (are there Catholic churches in Jordan, Iraq?). This really rubs against the grain of freedom of religion we practice here.

It is about touchstones, you sympathize with those who appears to more be like you. Human nature.

I think he would favor resolution of the conflict, but like myself, we both think that it is not likely until one side kills the other. Too many people are committed to hate on both sides.


Anyway, Clocker was right, you have the David vs Goliath mentality here. We all have that from time to time.


As for Afghanistan and 9/11, I would interested to hear how you would have handled the affair to minimize innocent citizens. I would have to say that I strongly feel in a case such as this, that not only the perpetrators but the government which supported them should be punished. Punished so overwhelmingly that host countries for motivated groups will think again.

How many Afghans would have died if Bin Laden had attacked China? Well, how many people live in Afghanistan, that is your answer. So athough many innocents died, I think an effort was made to restrict damage. And I don't think China would be sending 1.8 billion in aide, either.

My final assumption, as stated before, is that the Taliban would not have handed over the Alqueda to any outside court. I feel they would have used that as a stall tactic and the guilty would have disappeared into the hills. We saw this very thing happen on a small scale.


As with the attack, the retaliation would need to both symbolic and effective. I don't think a prolonged special ops invasion would have been practical, to hand pick out the rotten apples and save the innocent ones.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@11 September 2003 - 02:43

NB I have noted that the Israelis are now bulldozing the homes of suicide bombers in order to punish their families. I believe the Nazis used similar 'tactics' against the French resistance.. how ironic.

EBP,

You used the Nazi thing! No, not you. The cheapest shot in the game. Every highschooler on the forum uses that!

That kind of stuff really puts your views into question. I know you know how specious that is. Why do you lose your cool so quickly? Stay on the damn high road.

I guess my comment about "sugar and vinegar" was not found useful.


BTW, everything and anything would include the entire arsenal of weapons we have. I would imagine that we have chemical and biological weapons at the ready somewhere and I think we could scrounge up a hydrogen bomb or 2. Seems we have remained rather civilized given what is available.

Again, my attempt to draw you to the middle has fizzled by you voicing the uber-antiAmerican government hardline.

[evilbagpuss]

No I do not have the "David and Goliath" mentality.

I see atrocities being carried out that are supported by the USA and my country.

Atrocities which, if they were carried out by any other country, would cause international outrage. Stone throwing children shot dead. Missiles dropped onto apartment blocks full of people.

I see supposedley intelligent people, alleged compassionate 'people' supporting these atrocities as if it were common sense.

Its as simple as that.