Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[Billy_Dean]

Hold on, let's clear a few things up here, before you two have me claiming the pope is a catholic!

If you can arbitrarily decide that it's okay to impose your western, liberal concept of women's rights on cultures that actively disagree with you, then why can't the US do the same with democracy?

Show me where I said that? Also show me where the US has imposed, and not opposed democracy. Start with Chile and work your way forward.

ilw, your post is totally confusing to me. Send me over some of the grass you're smoking and I'll try to get in the same mindframe.


B)

[ilw]

So are you not saying that (irrespective of government and popular opinion in these countries) we in the West should fund a 'revolutionary' group, because this group is right and government and popular opinion in the country is wrong?

Edit: Thats not so far from certain CIA tactics that we know you are so fond of :-"
And what is so great about democracy? Why is democracy the ultimate good and dictatorship the ultimate bad?

[Billy_Dean]

And what is so great about democracy? Why is democracy the ultimate good and dictatorship the ultimate bad?

ilw, if there is such a thing as a "good" dictatorship, please point one out to me.

Edit: Thats not so far from certain CIA tactics that we know you are so fond of

A joke from ilw, at this time of night too!

So are you not saying that (irrespective of government and popular opinion in these countries) we in the West should fund a 'revolutionary' group, because this group is right and government and popular opinion in the country is wrong?

Yes .. or is it no? Isn't that exactly what we are doing? Have I ever said that it is wrong to interfere in the politics of another country?



B)

[Rat Faced]

If you can arbitrarily decide that it's okay to impose your western, liberal concept of women's rights on cultures that actively disagree with you, then why can't the US do the same with democracy?

Correct me if im wrong, but the USA is a Republic based on Democracy.....not a Democracy.


As with Communism, Democracy in its extreme is unworkable.


de·moc·ra·cy

1/ The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.

2/ Majority rule.


The USA, like the UK, is quite capable of having a government where the majority of the popular vote goes to the loser of the election.......therefore its not a True Democracy.


Supporting education in another country is OK.......as long as no one is forced to be educated.

Forcing democracy on another country is intollerable.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by j2k4+12 September 2003 - 23:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 12 September 2003 - 23:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@12 September 2003 - 23:28

I&#39;m glad you lot are posting on here, America has a reputation in the world of an arrogant, couldn&#39;t care less, what&#39;s best for the US is best for the world attitude. So much so, you still don&#39;t understand, two years later, why 911 happened.

Well, then-

Just for us American thickos, why don&#39;t you tell us, in very precise and exact terms, why 9/11 "happened"?[/b][/quote]
I will ask only this once more, then leave it alone, Billy.

Try "Waiting for Columbus"; specifically, "Willin".

Are you?

I await with &#39;bated breath the true, inside story of 9/11.

[ilw]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@14 September 2003 - 21:13
Supporting education in another country is OK.......as long as no one is forced to be educated.

If the education you fund goes against the wishes of the government of the country, then i disagree.



How do you measure how &#39;good&#39; a reign is? If you just mean by general impression of how things go for the country during the period of rule then although i can&#39;t really think of a great dictatorship, all the monarchies of europe were at one time or another dictatorships and there were good and bad rulers/periods. China seems to be doing alright for itself economically and industrially.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by ilw+14 September 2003 - 21:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw &#064; 14 September 2003 - 21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@14 September 2003 - 21:13
Supporting education in another country is OK.......as long as no one is forced to be educated.

If the education you fund goes against the wishes of the government of the country, then i disagree.



How do you measure how &#39;good&#39; a reign is? If you just mean by general impression of how things go for the country during the period of rule then although i can&#39;t really think of a great dictatorship, all the monarchies of europe were at one time or another dictatorships and there were good and bad rulers/periods. China seems to be doing alright for itself economically and industrially. [/b][/quote]
Who gives a monkey&#39;s what a Government wants?

Its the people that concern me.

I wont force anyone to do anything, but if i want to learn/study something.......there is no way that what my government wants will come into the equation, or the legality of it.

Im quite happy supporting anyone, anywhere with learning.


If the people are unhappy enough to revolt, they will revolt.....the way the future of that country goes will depend upon what the people believe (or those that are in charge). I am not advocating educating people to rebell, but in educating people generally....if they want to be educated.

In some places a revolution will go to the extreme left or right....as it has done throughout last century, unless education is available to show how extremes (in either direction) do not give stability for the masses.

[AussieSheila]

Originally posted by ilw@14 September 2003 - 21:00
If the education you fund goes against the wishes of the government of the country, then i disagree.

What about the wishes of the people? The PEOPLE are asking for our help. The ordinary, everyday people of Afghanistan are asking the ordinary, everyday people (just like me) of the Western world for help. When I&#39;m considering ways that I CAN help, I won&#39;t be taking into consideration the &#39;wishes of the government&#39; at all, I&#39;m answering a plea for help. This is human rights. I don&#39;t believe I&#39;m forcing my Western ways on anyone.

Read this and tell me there is nothing we can or should do. Not in my name either, Mr. Howard.

http://www.rawa.org/betray.htm

[Billy_Dean]

What about the ones you miss j2t4?

But Bush cited the U.S. military victories in Afghanistan and Iraq as examples of the strides the United States has made in cracking down on anti-American militants and those who might harbour them or provide them with weapons of mass destruction.

A little quiz for my American friends. The above quote was from a news report.

Can you spot what really pisses a lot of people off in the above quote?

Clue: It&#39;s what&#39;s not there.


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@ j2k4

I await with &#39;bated breath the true, inside story of 9/11.

I seem to remember your theory was, that 911 happened because America was seen as the "Great Satan" and had no political motive, is that right?

What do you want me to say? Do I really have to point out US involvement in Muslim countries? Do I have to point out that Osama Bin Laden was recruited, armed and financed by the US, then abandoned? Look at every US involvement in the muslim world for your answers. Look especially at Saudi Arabia.

@ Clocko.

If you can arbitrarily decide that it&#39;s okay to impose your western, liberal concept of women&#39;s rights on cultures that actively disagree with you, then why can&#39;t the US do the same with democracy?

By "... cultures that actively disagree...", do you mean by the men?


B)

[Billy_Dean]

I think AussieSheila&#39;s link should be more prominent.

http://www.rawa.org/betray.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Afghanistan has been well and truly betrayed


The Herald (Glasgow), February 26, 2003
David Hayman, head of operations, Spirit Aid, 45 King Street, Glasgow.



I HAVE just returned from the last country we went to war with, barely 16 months ago, Afghanistan. I spent a month there taking in medical aid to 13 mountain villages that collectively go by the name of Sheik-Jalaal. Out of a population of 5000, 50% were children and they were dying. Dying of tuberculosis, diphtheria, malaria, whooping cough, gastroenteritis, and URI. They haven&#39;t seen a doctor in 24 years&#33; I arranged and paid for teams of doctors, nurses, and drivers. I bought thousands of pounds worth of medicines, and the Halo Trust (the mine-clearing organisation) loaned me a fleet of two ambulances and two Land Rovers.

....

At the end of the day, though, what I managed to achieve was but a sticking -plaster on the wounds of that beleaguered and forgotten country. Wasn&#39;t this the country that Tony Blair and George Bush pledged, in the same breath that announced war, that the people of Afghanistan would not be forgotten? Well, I can say after two visits to Afghanistan that they are not only forgotten but well and truly betrayed. The country is on its knees: roads, bridges, tunnels, schools, homes, hospitals, and farmlands are reduced to rubble and dust. It is one of the most heavily land-mined countries in the world. Only 5% of the rural population have access to clean water, 17% have access to medical services, 13% have access to education, 25% of all children are dead by the age of five. Life expectancy is 43. An estimated three million people are still in refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan, let alone the hundreds of thousands of internally displaced peoples. This country is in a mess and if anyone tells me that millions of dollars worth of aid is getting into this country then I will gladly take them to Afghanistan and point out the brutal truth. The people are dying&#33; And we are turning a blind eye.

The people are dying and we are heading off to war with yet another country that hasn&#39;t bombed us or attacked us. How can we even contemplate creating another, inevitable, humanitarian disaster when the evidence of Saddam Hussein&#39;s threat to us all has yet to be proven? Surely, at the start of our 21st century, we should have evolved beyond the point where we reduce a country and a people to dust, for the flimsiest of excuses. War is the failure of politics&#33; War is the failure of diplomacy&#33; It is the absence of wisdom and understanding. The humanitarian crises, the desperation of the children, the betrayal of a people I witnessed in Afghanistan must not be repeated. Not in our name, Mr Blair.