Witnesses For Ufo Congressional Hearing

[bigboab]

Just think there could be a reverse universe and we could all be kicking butt in a similar Forum.

[SodiumChloride]

Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Both possibilities are equally terrifying.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by exeus+10 September 2003 - 15:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (exeus &#064; 10 September 2003 - 15:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-evilbagpuss@17 August 2003 - 11:13


The real issue is do they have the technology to travel at the necessary speeds to reach us within a reasonable amount of time?

Bear in mind the length of time between the first powered flight by humans and the moon landings and it doesnt require a huge leap of faith to assume that any civilisation which can survive long enough could probably reach the required level of technology.

Assuming they have reached that stage of development and could make it all the way over here its not beyond the&nbsp; realms of possibility that they would treat us as a primitive species or even bacteria in a petri-dish. A mere scientific curiosity to be studied at leisure.

Bacteria in a petri dish doesnt know its being studied by humans but does that mean humans dont exist? If aliens do exist and have made it over here why would they bother communicating with us?

I doubt we have anything in the way of resources or knowledge that they would want or need.

i agree fully&#33; is good to see that there are other non sheep out there[/b][/quote]
I guess this approach would indicate that the aliens would be intrisically different from us, which would be scary.

Since humans have discovered the vastness of space and the ability to transmit data across it, we have been sending out information to whatever might be able to receive and understand it 24/7 and at the same time listening for any reply or similar broadcast.

The discovery of space and the reality of space flight has really tickled the fancy of the common man and scientist alike. Space aliens are the bridge between faith in a God and concrete reality. They are a statistical possibility and a hope that there is "something more, something bigger" than our petty, painful world.

I would imagine that any intelligent civilization would have the same fascination that we have once they realize what could be out there. I would guess that they would start sending out data by utilizing electromagnetic radiation, hundreds if not thousands of Earth years before they have the ability to actually locate and travel to a distant galaxy. We have received nothing and we have pretty good equipment in detecting the spectrum of EMR.

To think that they kept totally quiet until thay had the technology in place to travel across the universe and spy on whatever is there, just for shits, would indicate a rather suspicious and fearful mentality.

In addition, if they are like humans at all, they would want to communicate with us and try and give us either advice or technology which might allow us a better life. It may not be the right thing for us, like the Peace Corp building a bridge because they think a tribe should have one, but they would certainly make the attempt.


As for the certainty of other intelligent life due to probability, many Christians say that it is even impossible here, and God must have done it. I personally agree that if we assume the Big Bang and the sheer size of the universe and number of solar systems, that there is a good chance there is another intelligent race out there. I also agree that they could already possess the technology because Earth was shackled in it&#39;s scientific endeavors for thousands of years by Religion. Without that disruption I am confident we would be zooming about space now and probably living eternally on Earth (for another thread- not a joke).

[Billy_Dean]

When you look at the perceived age of the universe, 15,000,000,000 years old, and the age of our solar system, approx 4,500,000,000, you can see why solar systems and galaxies would have come and gone before ours started to form. When you then look at the age and complexity of life on Earth, and the timespan of our so called "intelligence", we occupy a miniscule place in space-time. Another intelligent life form out there could be billions of years in front of us, in fact, using the probability theory, there SHOULD be. But they haven&#39;t found us.

The strange thing about all this speculation on other intelligent life forms, is that if a particular asteroid hadn&#39;t crashed into the Earth 65 million years ago, there probably wouldn&#39;t be any "intelligent" life on Earth to discuss it. Evolution ensures we are a unique product of our environment and circumstances. Probabilities aren&#39;t facts.

As to the UFO thingie; I remember a few years ago there were seven plane crashes involving civilian airliners in that year. Three of them were videoed happening. In that same year there were many thousands of so-called UFO sightings, and not one photo, let alone a video. IMO it&#39;s all bunkum, the US government wants the world to believe in them, it keeps their minds off what&#39;s really going on.

[lynx]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@25 September 2003 - 06:08
When you look at the perceived age of the universe, 15,000,000,000 years old, and the age of our solar system, approx 4,500,000,000, you can see why solar systems and galaxies would have come and gone before ours started to form.&nbsp; When you then look at the age and complexity of life on Earth, and the timespan of our so called "intelligence", we occupy a miniscule place in space-time.&nbsp; Another intelligent life form out there could be billions of years in front of us, in fact, using the probability theory, there SHOULD be. But they haven&#39;t found us.

The strange thing about all this speculation on other intelligent life forms, is that if a particular asteroid hadn&#39;t crashed into the Earth 65 million years ago, there probably wouldn&#39;t be any "intelligent" life on Earth to discuss it.&nbsp; Evolution ensures we are a unique product of our environment and circumstances.&nbsp; Probabilities aren&#39;t facts.

As to the UFO thingie; I remember a few years ago there were seven plane crashes involving civilian airliners in that year.&nbsp; Three of them were videoed happening.&nbsp; In that same year there were many thousands of so-called UFO sightings, and not one photo, let alone a video.&nbsp; IMO it&#39;s all bunkum, the US government wants the world to believe in them, it keeps their minds off what&#39;s really going on.

Our solar system is &#39;fourth generation&#39;.
First generation systems consist purely of hydrogen->helium conversions. When these systems die, they produce the elements up to carbon.
Second generation systems are those made up of the elements produced by first generation systems, and the death of these systems produces more complex elements (I believe up to iron, but I can&#39;t be remember to be certain).
Third generation systems are those made up of elements produced by first and second generation systems. Their death produces the more exotic (trans-iron) elements.
Finally, and it really is finally (there are no more stages beyond this) the fourth generation systems are created from the elements from previous generations, and it is only fourth generation systems which are capable of supporting life as we would recognise it.

All these generations of star systems take time, and it estimated that the minimum amount of time per generation is about 3.5 billion years. So the earliest that a fourth generation system could have started to form is after about 10.5 billion years. Add to that the current age of our system, 4.5 billion years, and you get 15 billion years, the age of the universe.

The result of this is that the current time is just about the earliest that intelligent life could exist in the universe, so your theory that intelligent life could be billions of years ahead of us just doesn&#39;t work, although I would accept the possibility of millions of years.

As for such intelligent life not having &#39;found&#39; us, what has there been to attract them to this planet? It is only in the last 100 years or so that we have been emitting anything into space that is in any way different from any other planet/star system. And since those emissions can only have travelled a distance of 100 light years, the number of other star systems which could have been reached is extremely limited. If any star system in that range was more advanced than us, surely we would have detected similar emissions from them.

The only other way we could be detected is if a wandering spaceship just happened to be passing through this tiny sector of the universe, a region less than 3*10^-25 of the total. A probability so infinitesimal as to be ignored.

As far as I am aware, the US government and its agencies have repeatedly stated that they have no evidence of UFO activity, but because it has a secret testing area known as Area 51, some people seem to want to insist it is hiding UFO&#39;s, aliens, or whatever other fanciful notions seem to spring to their minds.

Edit: typo, clarification

[Billy_Dean]

LYNX:

The result of this is that the current time is just about the earliest that intelligent life could exist in the universe, so your theory that intelligent life could be billions of years ahead of us just doesn&#39;t work, although I would accept the possibility of millions of years.

This is also a theory, it proves or disproves nothing. If your theory was 10% out, it would push the required time back to 8-9 billion years. If the theoretical age of the universe were underestimated by 10% also, my original hypothesis could easily be possible. Theories are not fact.

[ilw]

Lynx are you taking into account the relativity of time?

[lynx]

The estimates are based on the ratios of the amounts of various elements, it is based on observed fact, not theory. If the age of the universe is 10% wrong (and I believe they are now estimating the age of the universe at 13.5 billion years) then the estimates of the minimum age of a generation also adjusts by 10%, as does the age of our solar system, since they are all based on the same criteria.

But in any case, this doesn&#39;t change the fact that we are undetectable (as being different) at a range of more than about 100 light years.

@ilw, the relativity of time only really has a significant effect when gravitiational forces are extremely high. In any case, that would tend to shorten the age of the universe and so make other intelligent life less likely. This is contrary to one of my previous posts, which tended to suggest that high gravitational forces would lengthen the age of the universe - I was looking at it from the point of view of an external observer, which in the case of the universe would be impossible.

[Billy_Dean]

They are still estimates and theories, not facts.

[ilw]

I meant that relative to planets far away, we are travelling at speeds where relativity matters, billions of years could pass there and only a few million here or vice versa. As i understand it time doesn&#39;t really have much meaning.