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Thread: Obama's real patriotism problem

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    as Skizo has pointed out, use of the word "patriotism" in this instance is an egregious misapplication of terminology.

    While I agree one's views on healthcare have nothing to do with patriotism, Skizo posted a pile of junk about patriotism being questionable if one wishes to "change how we do things". If you take that as the basis then the example Squeamous chose to use fits Skizo's criteria.

    Squeamous didn't set the standard he/she (sorry I don't know which) ran with the standard offered up.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    as Skizo has pointed out, use of the word "patriotism" in this instance is an egregious misapplication of terminology.

    While I agree one's views on healthcare have nothing to do with patriotism, Skizo posted a pile of junk about patriotism being questionable if one wishes to "change how we do things". If you take that as the basis then the example Squeamous chose to use fits Skizo's criteria.

    Squeamous didn't set the standard he/she (sorry I don't know which) ran with the standard offered up.
    By "pile of junk" I assume you meant the expando-attacho thingie, which I had not read.

    I just opened it, and was quickly reminded why I ignored it to begin with, that being it is of a boilerplate-type, rhetorically, the sense of which will forever be lost on liberals, as they are so basically averse to such things and don't like to read, anyway, because they prefer to feel things before buying them lock, stock and pork-barrel.

    In any case I found nothing even slightly indefensible in the displayed body of his post; if you have, lay it out, rather than the default denunciation.

    BTW-

    If you can read my (run-on) second sentence aloud without taking a breath, it's worth ten points.
    Last edited by j2k4; 07-22-2008 at 01:37 AM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    By "pile of junk" I assume you meant the expando-attacho thingie, which I had not read.

    I just opened it, and was quickly reminded why I ignored it to begin with, that being it is of a boilerplate-type, rhetorically, the sense of which will forever be lost on liberals, as they are so basically averse to such things and don't like to read, anyway, because they prefer to feel things before buy them lock, stock and pork-barrel.

    In any case I found nothing even slightly indefensible in the displayed body of his post; if you have, lay it out, rather than the default denunciation.

    BTW-

    If you can read my (run-on) second sentence aloud without taking a breath, it's worth ten points.
    Yes I did mean the attached garbage and I gave my reason why I call it so already.
    I see you made an assumption at what liberals would think of it and why, must be nice to be able to read minds.

    The "article" doesn't deserve much in the way of serious debate because it, much like your comment on liberals, is based on projection of what they want. I've used the term strawman in here before but it fits.

    He twists statements to make his strawman case

    insists that Barack will make you "work" for change and that he will "demand that you, too, be different."
    He uses this to make it seem as if there is a communist revolution where all detractors will be shot approaching, when the actual method given by the Obamas was a conservative one " This is the change I am offering to work for, if you want this change you have to work for and be the change, not expect government to do it for you".

    "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

    I may not be for some of the changes they want, but the method they are putting forward is not anti American.

    Now if Goldberg had just written this to say that he disagrees ideologically with the Obamas then that would be fine. It would even have been okay if he just aired his reasons for his disagreement on opinions as to what makes this country great and what he feels needs "adjusting" as he put it, but he says that those differences of opinion make those that don't share his views unpatriotic. I stated before nobody holds a monopoly on what it means to be American.

    Maybe he is just stating that "some people feel this way", but I think not.

    Even the founders expected change, they specifically set a mechanism in place to amend the constitution so it could reflect the people of the future.

    ....

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    Yes I did mean the attached garbage and I gave my reason why I call it so already.
    Call me blind, but I didn't see anything resembling a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    His wife Michelle...insists that Barack will make you "work" for change and that he will "demand that you, too, be different."
    He uses this to make it seem as if there is a communist revolution where all detractors will be shot approaching, when the actual method given by the Obamas was a conservative one " This is the change I am offering to work for, if you want this change you have to work for and be the change, not expect government to do it for you".
    Insofar as the paragraph above reflects the Obamas' sentiment, be advised that while it is not objectionable in and of itself, it is still undifferentiated tripe.

    The only description he has rendered relative to the "change" he prescribes is of the 'one giant step closer to socialism' sort.

    To be fair, I ask you - when you hear him use the words "change" or "hope" or what-have-you, what precisely do you think he means, and why would you ascribe a positive aspect to it?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    I'm not sure how you relate the results of an uncited survey to that of "true patriotism".

    Obama's health care plan follows the Democratic template: an emphasis on dramatically and quickly increasing the number of people who have health insurance by spending significant money upfront. Democrats have run for office on this issue time and time again.

    It will be funded the same way that Democrats like to fund everything: punishing (taxing) the wealthy so that those who earn a good wage, pay for those who don't.

    He claims that he'll save the average family $2500/year, but there is absolutely no way to remotely prove that or make it applicable to more Americans. Example: I have great health, dental, and eye insurance that I don't pay a single penny for. (UPS covers all insurance costs for it's employees) I have nil to benifit from his health care plan.

    This is a good read that lays out his plan, plus the pros and cons of each element as well as its weight. It's fairly long, but if you'd really like to educate yourself about what he's offering and what the cost to average merkin will benefit from it (if any), you ought to give it a read.
    I will read it, but don't forget we already have this system in the UK and it works very well, so maybe if I educate myself you could look into how we do it and educate yourself too?

    Social equality starts at the bottom with equal healthcare for all. That is the foundation of a decent society. It might seem like you don't have a lot to gain from equality, but it's inequality that leads to most crime and it destabilises a country and in fact on a larger scale the world.

    The survey I mentioned was cited in the link I gave, which you probably didn't look at.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    as Skizo has pointed out, use of the word "patriotism" in this instance is an egregious misapplication of terminology.

    While I agree one's views on healthcare have nothing to do with patriotism, Skizo posted a pile of junk about patriotism being questionable if one wishes to "change how we do things". If you take that as the basis then the example Squeamous chose to use fits Skizo's criteria.

    Squeamous didn't set the standard he/she (sorry I don't know which) ran with the standard offered up.
    That's exactly it. I read in that thing Skizo wanted me to read (which to be honest just sounds like 'it's too expensive, lets not bother') that one of the candidates is pushing the American concept of individuality and personal responsibility in discussing health care.
    Republicans, like McCain, on the other hand, build their health reform plans on the classic American foundation of “rugged individualism” promoting choice and personal responsibility.
    Is this patriotic? I suppose according to the 'lets not change anything, lets just stick to what someone decided was a good ethos hundreds of years ago' brigade it probably would be. Funny, because that kind of attitude reminds me of much of the muslim world.

    I find it ridiculous personally that anyone could have an angle and then ratchet ever single situation no matter how inappropriate to fit it.

    As far as I'm concerned patriotism is about caring for your neighbours and doing what's best for the whole rather than the self. Nothing Obama has said makes me think he's unpatriotic.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #17
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    I'd like to hear someone reconcile what plenty of people tout as the 'stupendous achievement that is national health care' in the U.K., Canada, Germany, France, Cuba, etc., with those who coincidentally say it shirks on timely care, availability of doctors/facilities, and is a runaway freight-train of fiscal ruin.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Call me blind, but I didn't see anything resembling a reason.
    Okay if it makes you more comfortable I will call you blind, forgive me if I forget in future and use j2k4

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    @Skizo
    I do so because I have a huge disdain for those like Goldberg that question the patriotism of others they disagree with politically, picking up on one or two words, without context to make their case.
    Is this what you meant?

    If so, then I'm looking more for a defense of Obama's change/hope lingo, apart from his assertion that it will "make things better".

    What things?

    Better how, precisely?

    Merely noting "huge disdain" for Goldberg and the quality of his punditry is easy.

    As to Obama, I can't say I've heard him actually answer a question yet; he seems more concerned with reformulating everyone's question according to his own sense of propriety.

    McCain, for whom my loathing is well-known, is much less shy about offering his views, and with a degree of specificity Obama does not countenance.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    @Skizo
    I do so because I have a huge disdain for those like Goldberg that question the patriotism of others they disagree with politically, picking up on one or two words, without context to make their case.
    Is this what you meant?

    If so, then I'm looking more for a defense of Obama's change/hope lingo, apart from his assertion that it will "make things better".

    What things?

    Better how, precisely?

    Merely noting "huge disdain" for Goldberg and the quality of his punditry is easy.
    Reading or quoting the whole line

    2. I don't make this reply to defend Obama, I do so because I have a huge disdain for those like Goldberg that question the patriotism of others they disagree with politically, picking up on one or two words, without context to make their case.
    Would have saved you 43 words and some punctuation there. But seeing as my comment regarding junk was directed solely at the article Goldberg penned then why would you feel I needed to make a case for Obama to justify it?

    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    As to Obama, I can't say I've heard him actually answer a question yet; he seems more concerned with reformulating everyone's question according to his own sense of propriety.

    McCain, for whom my loathing is well-known, is much less shy about offering his views, and with a degree of specificity Obama does not countenance.
    Perhaps your media is shielding/steering you again

    Although McCain has been clear in how he plans to create a border between Iraq and Pakistan-- "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"

    (you have heard about his Iraq/Pakistan border gaffe?)

    It's not the only geographical gaffe he has made, perhaps he's doing it deliberately to try to seem more in touch with Americans than Obama. You see to some it's anti-American to be able to point other countries out on a map


    Details of policy and roughly how to achieve them are out there for both the main and most of the third party candidates. Perhaps you are looking in the wrong places or not actually looking. Perhaps you have seen specifics but as you don't like them have chosen to ignore them and convinced yourself they don't exist. Okay the last one is just yanking your chain, but come on when have you ever heard much in the way of details from any campaign?
    Last edited by devilsadvocate; 07-23-2008 at 09:46 PM.

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