Obama...

[j2k4]

Nah-uh.

You leave yourself an infinite amount of wiggle-room.
Pick a metric (or two) and pin the determination to it.

Nah-uh, yourself.

As I remember, you predicted the Patriot Act would be a precursor to absolute Fascism, complaining about infringement on your library usage, etc.

Scattershot and dire predictions abounded, yet nothing at all came of it.

"Oh, Lord, they're gonna tap our telephones!!!?

Nothing came of that, either.

Metrics?

I don't need no stinking metrics.

The goose/gander analogy springs to mind.

[devilsadvocate]

The lack of transparency?

He said he'd have EVERY BILL posted online for a minimum of FIVE DAYS before a vote for purposes of PUBLIC REVUE.

Surely you remember this promise.

Big Nancy posts it at 11pm the night before an early-morning vote - it's a thousand pages of gobblety-gook IN PDF FORMAT.

In case you didn't know, PDFs cannot be keyword-searched for content; there is literally no way to review this mess.

If this is what passes for transparency in your liberal book, well...

well then that would be a promise broken or not yet kept. But you said no transparency, and perhaps not with the 5 days but the bills are online, so what exactly do you feel he has kept from us?

On the stimulus If you look at the link 100% posted in his pre election promise he said "non emergency" bills. Now you may not agree that the stimulus bill is an emergency but he and many others do.

Other than that he's only been in office a few days and had more important things to deal with. Apparently they have people working on the program. If in say 3 months time it still isn't running as promised I will grant your point.

And the pork?

He said, in his address, that there was "no pork, no earmarks" in the stimulus whatsoever.

Now I realize you wouldn't recognize a pig if it bit you on the ass, but people who do found the parts they were allowed to examine absolutely loaded with the stuff.

I refer you to the video, it's a spending bill...that's the point, as long as it creates/keeps jobs in place the whole fucking thing is supposed to be one big pork feast.

I do enjoy watching people like Lindsey Graham going on the news decrying the spending going to states. Then when asked if their own state should refuse the money the 180 comes in. It's almost as if they secretly want this bill.

And you think this guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread/Abraham Lincoln.

Wow thanks, I didn't know that, I must remember you have mind reading abilities and you know what people think more than they do
BTW now it's over, I was for Barr, but only because of the other choices.

Besides all that, it seems Big Nancy is really running the show:

"I want this bill passed before I leave for my glorious self-congratulatory trip to see the Pope tomorrow or else!"

Well, you won't be able to blame it on Republicans, anyway - this is gonna be the biggest tits-up in legislative history.

The dems and Obama were upfront about their agenda, as were the republicans. The voters made their choice.
Your religious right socially conservative evangelical talking points are just sounding like bitter cry baby whining, not thoughtful, or even factual disagreement or debate.


I'll call the whaaaaambulance

[devilsadvocate]

"Oh, Lord, they're gonna tap our telephones!!!?

Nothing came of that, either.

Are you sure about that. Seems they tapped everything except our garbage cans

[j2k4]

well then that would be a promise broken or not yet kept. But you said no transparency, and perhaps not with the 5 days but the bills are online, so what exactly do you feel he has kept from us?

On the stimulus If you look at the link 100% posted in his pre election promise he said "non emergency" bills. Now you may not agree that the stimulus bill is an emergency but he and many others do.

Other than that he's only been in office a few days and had more important things to deal with. Apparently they have people working on the program. If in say 3 months time it still isn't running as promised I will grant your point.

And the pork?

He said, in his address, that there was "no pork, no earmarks" in the stimulus whatsoever.

Now I realize you wouldn't recognize a pig if it bit you on the ass, but people who do found the parts they were allowed to examine absolutely loaded with the stuff.

I refer you to the video, it's a spending bill...that's the point, as long as it creates/keeps jobs in place the whole fucking thing is supposed to be one big pork feast.

I do enjoy watching people like Lindsey Graham going on the news decrying the spending going to states. Then when asked if their own state should refuse the money the 180 comes in. It's almost as if they secretly want this bill.

And you think this guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread/Abraham Lincoln.

Wow thanks, I didn't know that, I must remember you have mind reading abilities and you know what people think more than they do
BTW now it's over, I was for Barr, but only because of the other choices.

Besides all that, it seems Big Nancy is really running the show:

"I want this bill passed before I leave for my glorious self-congratulatory trip to see the Pope tomorrow or else!"

Well, you won't be able to blame it on Republicans, anyway - this is gonna be the biggest tits-up in legislative history.

The dems and Obama were upfront about their agenda, as were the republicans. The voters made their choice.
Your religious right socially conservative evangelical talking points are just sounding like bitter cry baby whining, not thoughtful, or even factual disagreement or debate.


I'll call the whaaaaambulance

My objections are factual.

Fact.

I also said, "So far...", and you may re-read the title and first post of this thread to verify.

Speaking of "whaaaaa..." I suggest you stop making excuses and defend him on the merits.

"Oh, Lord, they're gonna tap our telephones!!!?

Nothing came of that, either.

Are you sure about that. Seems they tapped everything except our garbage cans

I am sure about that, and I don't deal with the way things "seem".

That is precisely your problem - you spout off about how you "feel" and the way things "seem".

The skepticism you practice so universally during a republican administration has been totally disabled for Obama.

Go ahead, tell me how you'll denounce him or his policies if he does something you disagree with.

It'll never happen.

[Rat Faced]

On June 15, 2007, following an internal audit finding that FBI agents abused the USA PATRIOT Act power more than 1000 times, U.S. District Judge John D. Bates ordered the agency to begin turning over thousands of pages of documents related to the agency's national security letters program.

Seven United States Attorneys were dismissed by the United States Department of Justice on December 7, 2006. Senior members of the White House and the Department of Justice participated in compiling the list of dismisees. The USA Patriot Act Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005, which was signed into law on March 9, 2006, extinguished the former 120-day term limit of interim United States Attorneys appointed to fill vacated offices. This in effect gave the U.S. Attorney General greater appointing authority than the president, since the interim U.S. attorneys did not need Senate confirmation, and the presidential nominees do. (An interim U.S. attorney's term expires upon the confirmation and swearing in of a presidentially appointed U.S. attorney, if one is put forward. Critics have claimed the dismissals were either motivated by desire to install attorneys more loyal to the Republican party or as retribution for actions or inactions damaging to the Republican party. At least six of the eight had positive internal Justice Department performance reports.

Adam McGaughey, the webmaster of a fan site for the television show Stargate SG-1, was charged with copyright infringement and computer fraud. During the investigation, the FBI invoked a provision of the Act to obtain financial records from the site's Internet Service Provider. The USA PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to include search and seizure of records from Internet Service Providers.

Summit, New Jersey invoked the USA PATRIOT Act to defend itself from a lawsuit over removing homeless people from its train station.

The city said that its conduct is protected by the Patriot Act and that a homeless man's federal lawsuit should be barred. The city cited a section of the law regarding "attacks and other violence against mass transportation systems."

In November 2005, Business Week reported that the FBI had issued tens of thousands of "National Security Letters" and had obtained one million financial records from the customers of targeted Las Vegas businesses. Selected businesses included casinos, storage warehouses and car rental agencies. An anonymous Justice official claimed that such requests were permitted under section 505 of the USA PATRIOT Act and despite the volume of requests insisted "We are not inclined to ask courts to endorse fishing expeditions". This didn't just include financial records, but credit records, employment records, and in some cases, health records.

Furthermore, this information is databased and maintained indefinitely by the FBI. Previous legislation required that federal law enforcement destroy any records harvested during an investigation that pertained to anyone deemed innocent. The Patriot Act superseded that and now the records are maintained indefinitely. According to the legislation, they may be "shared with third-parties where appropriate" yet no where in the legislation does it define who these third parties are or what conditions would be deemed appropriate for the sharing of such records.

Public libraries have been asked to turn over their records for specific terminals. A few have filed suit, because the National Security Letters that they were presented with were very sweeping, demanding information not just on the individual under investigation, but on everyone who had used specific terminals at the libraries during given time windows. Since many of the users in one case were minor children, one library felt that it had an obligation to notify the parents. The FBI has disagreed and the case is now working its way through the court system.

A National Security Letter can be issued by any FBI agent with the rank of Field Supervisor or above, at their discretion. It does not require a judge or probable cause, as does a search warrant.

In May 2004, Professor Steve Kurtz of the University at Buffalo reported his wife's death of heart failure. The associate art professor, who works in the biotechnology sector, was using benign bacterial cultures and biological equipment in his work. Police arriving at the scene found the equipment (which had been displayed in museums and galleries throughout Europe and North America) suspicious and notified the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

The next day the FBI, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Department of Homeland Security and numerous other law enforcement agencies arrived in HAZMAT gear and cordoned off the block surrounding Kurtz's house, impounding computers, manuscripts, books, and equipment, and detaining Kurtz without charge for 22 hours; the Erie County Health Department condemned the house as a possible "health risk" while the cultures were analyzed. Although it was determined that nothing in the Kurtz's home posed any health or safety risk, the Justice Department sought charges under Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act—a law which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act.

A grand jury rejected those charges, but Kurtz is still charged with federal criminal mail and wire fraud, and faced 20 years in jail before the charges were dropped.

Supporters worldwide argue that this is a politically motivated prosecution, akin to those seen during the era of McCarthyism, and legal observers note that it is a precedent-setting case with far-reaching implications involving the criminalization of free speech and expression for artists, scientists, researchers, and others.

The FBI used the USA PATRIOT Act 13 times to request journalists that had interviewed computer intruder Adrian Lamo to preserve their notes and other information while they petitioned the Department of Justice for a subpoena to force the reporters to hand over the information. Journalists involved included newspaper writers, wire service reporters, and MSNBC writers. The Department of Justice did not authorize the subpoena requests because the language of the subpoena violated the Department's guidelines for a subpoena request, rather than recognition of any reporter/source privilege. The requests to preserve information were dropped. In some cases, the FBI apologized for the language of the request.

Of course there are loads of examples of people being arrested due to the Patriot Act for legitimate "Anti-Terrorism" investigations, which were then released without charge after a few weeks.. by which time they'd lost their Job etc

[j2k4]

Seven United States Attorneys were dismissed by the United States Department of Justice on December 7, 2006. Senior members of the White House and the Department of Justice participated in compiling the list of dismisees. The USA Patriot Act Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005, which was signed into law on March 9, 2006, extinguished the former 120-day term limit of interim United States Attorneys appointed to fill vacated offices. This in effect gave the U.S. Attorney General greater appointing authority than the president, since the interim U.S. attorneys did not need Senate confirmation, and the presidential nominees do. (An interim U.S. attorney's term expires upon the confirmation and swearing in of a presidentially appointed U.S. attorney, if one is put forward. Critics have claimed the dismissals were either motivated by desire to install attorneys more loyal to the Republican party or as retribution for actions or inactions damaging to the Republican party. At least six of the eight had positive internal Justice Department performance reports.

Adam McGaughey, the webmaster of a fan site for the television show Stargate SG-1, was charged with copyright infringement and computer fraud. During the investigation, the FBI invoked a provision of the Act to obtain financial records from the site's Internet Service Provider. The USA PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to include search and seizure of records from Internet Service Providers.

Summit, New Jersey invoked the USA PATRIOT Act to defend itself from a lawsuit over removing homeless people from its train station.

The city said that its conduct is protected by the Patriot Act and that a homeless man's federal lawsuit should be barred. The city cited a section of the law regarding "attacks and other violence against mass transportation systems."

In November 2005, Business Week reported that the FBI had issued tens of thousands of "National Security Letters" and had obtained one million financial records from the customers of targeted Las Vegas businesses. Selected businesses included casinos, storage warehouses and car rental agencies. An anonymous Justice official claimed that such requests were permitted under section 505 of the USA PATRIOT Act and despite the volume of requests insisted "We are not inclined to ask courts to endorse fishing expeditions". This didn't just include financial records, but credit records, employment records, and in some cases, health records.

Furthermore, this information is databased and maintained indefinitely by the FBI. Previous legislation required that federal law enforcement destroy any records harvested during an investigation that pertained to anyone deemed innocent. The Patriot Act superseded that and now the records are maintained indefinitely. According to the legislation, they may be "shared with third-parties where appropriate" yet no where in the legislation does it define who these third parties are or what conditions would be deemed appropriate for the sharing of such records.

Public libraries have been asked to turn over their records for specific terminals. A few have filed suit, because the National Security Letters that they were presented with were very sweeping, demanding information not just on the individual under investigation, but on everyone who had used specific terminals at the libraries during given time windows. Since many of the users in one case were minor children, one library felt that it had an obligation to notify the parents. The FBI has disagreed and the case is now working its way through the court system.

A National Security Letter can be issued by any FBI agent with the rank of Field Supervisor or above, at their discretion. It does not require a judge or probable cause, as does a search warrant.

In May 2004, Professor Steve Kurtz of the University at Buffalo reported his wife's death of heart failure. The associate art professor, who works in the biotechnology sector, was using benign bacterial cultures and biological equipment in his work. Police arriving at the scene found the equipment (which had been displayed in museums and galleries throughout Europe and North America) suspicious and notified the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

The next day the FBI, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Department of Homeland Security and numerous other law enforcement agencies arrived in HAZMAT gear and cordoned off the block surrounding Kurtz's house, impounding computers, manuscripts, books, and equipment, and detaining Kurtz without charge for 22 hours; the Erie County Health Department condemned the house as a possible "health risk" while the cultures were analyzed. Although it was determined that nothing in the Kurtz's home posed any health or safety risk, the Justice Department sought charges under Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act—a law which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act.

A grand jury rejected those charges, but Kurtz is still charged with federal criminal mail and wire fraud, and faced 20 years in jail before the charges were dropped.

Supporters worldwide argue that this is a politically motivated prosecution, akin to those seen during the era of McCarthyism, and legal observers note that it is a precedent-setting case with far-reaching implications involving the criminalization of free speech and expression for artists, scientists, researchers, and others.

The FBI used the USA PATRIOT Act 13 times to request journalists that had interviewed computer intruder Adrian Lamo to preserve their notes and other information while they petitioned the Department of Justice for a subpoena to force the reporters to hand over the information. Journalists involved included newspaper writers, wire service reporters, and MSNBC writers. The Department of Justice did not authorize the subpoena requests because the language of the subpoena violated the Department's guidelines for a subpoena request, rather than recognition of any reporter/source privilege. The requests to preserve information were dropped. In some cases, the FBI apologized for the language of the request.

Of course there are loads of examples of people being arrested due to the Patriot Act for legitimate "Anti-Terrorism" investigations, which were then released without charge after a few weeks.. by which time they'd lost their Job etc

Ah, a bunch of quotes.

From where, please?

[devilsadvocate]

It appears Obama will sign the stimulus on Tuesday, which if you include the day it was posted and the day of signing that makes 5 days posted online So it looks like he's getting there

[Snee]

In case you didn't know, PDFs cannot be keyword-searched for content; there is literally no way to review this mess.

That's not really accurate. It depends on how they're made.

If it's all scanned pages or something then you're screwed, but ones made up of text, like the ones you get when you create pdfs in OO Writer, are searchable.

[j2k4]

It appears Obama will sign the stimulus on Tuesday, which if you include the day it was posted and the day of signing that makes 5 days posted online So it looks like he's getting there

"Getting there"?

When it's entirely within his power to 'be there' right out of the box, "getting there" ain't good enough, chum.

In case you didn't know, PDFs cannot be keyword-searched for content; there is literally no way to review this mess.

That's not really accurate. It depends on how they're made.

If it's all scanned pages or something then you're screwed, but ones made up of text, like the ones you get when you create pdfs in OO Writer, are searchable.

Back to the point I just made, Snee - Obama is the boss (just ask him), and there is no reason whatsoever to post the bill in PDF to begin with.

I can only conclude that, considering his awesome degree of tech-savvy, he knew full-well what he was doing.

Of course, it's kinda curious that he's jaunting around the country doing the cheerleader thing while the House and Senate are conjuring the bill.

He must have given them carte blanche to do as they pleased, eh?

[Snee]

Back to the point I just made, Snee - Obama is the boss (just ask him), and there is no reason whatsoever to post the bill in PDF to begin with.

I can only conclude that, considering his awesome degree of tech-savvy, he knew full-well what he was doing.

It's not that I want to make this about a file format or anything (but tbh, it's more interesting than Obama to me, he's just that bland guy I'm hoping will be less of a screw-up than the last one).

...But there are reasons to put stuff in a pdf rather than, say, a .doc. One good reason would be that PDFs tend to keep their formatting better and will display roughly the same with most readers, assuming there's no weird interactive stuff or barcodes.


Having said all that. I have nothing to add about the actual topic. I'll assume you lot have been paying better attention to what he's actually been doing wrt the listed stuff than I.