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Thread: What Is Your Christianity?

  1. #131
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    I'm glad that you agree that every effect must have a cause and that the cause comes before the effect. It is helpfull to take that position before you read this article. I am also glad that you are working with scientific arguements here, again your understanding will help you follow this.



    If God created the universe, then who created God?

    A number of sceptics ask this question. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the question ‘Who created God?’ is illogical, just like ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’

    Everything which has a beginning has a cause.1
    The universe has a beginning.
    Therefore the universe has a cause.

    It’s important to stress the words in bold type. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Is. 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

    In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

    1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
    2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
    If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy — the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible. So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

    Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause — no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused — nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

    IN SUMMARY
    The universe (including time itself) can be shown to have had a beginning.

    It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause.

    The universe therefore requires a cause, just as Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:20 teach.

    God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn’t need a cause.

    OBJECTIONS
    There are only two ways to refute an argument:

    Show that it is logically invalid

    Show that at least one of the premises is false.

    a) Is the argument valid?
    A valid argument is one where it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. Note that validity does not depend on the truth of the premises, but on the form of the argument. The argument in this paper is valid; it is of the same form as: All whales have backbones; Moby Dick is a whale; therefore Moby Dick has a backbone. So the only hope for the sceptic is to dispute one or both of the premises.

    B) Are the premises true?
    1) Does the universe have a beginning?
    Oscillating universe ideas were popularized by atheists like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov solely to avoid the notion of a beginning, with its implications of a Creator. But as shown above, the Laws of Thermodynamics undercut that argument. Even an oscillating universe cannot overcome those laws. Each one of the hypothetical cycles would exhaust more and more usable energy. This means every cycle would be larger and longer than the previous one, so looking back in time there would be smaller and smaller cycles. So the multicycle model could have an infinite future, but can only have a finite past.2

    Also, there are many lines of evidence showing that there is far too little mass for gravity to stop expansion and allow cycling in the first place, i.e., the universe is ‘open’. According to the best estimates (even granting old-earth assumptions), the universe still has only about half the mass needed for re-contraction. This includes the combined total of both luminous matter and non-luminous matter (found in galactic halos), as well as any possible contribution of neutrinos to total mass.3 Some recent evidence for an ‘open’ universe comes from the number of light-bending ‘gravitational lenses’ in the sky.4 Also, analysis of Type Ia supernovae shows that the universe’s expansion rate is not slowing enough for a closed universe.5,6 It seems like there is only 40-80% of the required matter to cause a ‘big crunch’. Incidentally, this low mass is also a major problem for the currently fashionable ‘inflationary’ version of the ‘big bang’ theory, as this predicts a mass density just on the threshold of collapse — a ‘flat’ universe.

    Finally, no known mechanism would allow a bounce back after a hypothetical ‘big crunch’.7 As the late Professor Beatrice Tinsley of Yale explained, even though the mathematics says that the universe oscillates, ‘There is no known physical mechanism to reverse a catastrophic big crunch.’ Off the paper and into the real world of physics, those models start from the Big Bang, expand, collapse, and that’s the end.8

    2) Denial of cause and effect
    Some physicists assert that quantum mechanics violates this cause/effect principle and can produce something from nothing. For instance, Paul Davies writes:

    … spacetime could appear out of nothingness as a result of a quantum transition. … Particles can appear out of nowhere without specific causation … Yet the world of quantum mechanics routinely produces something out of nothing.9

    But this is a gross misapplication of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics never produces something out of nothing. Davies himself admitted on the previous page that his scenario ‘should not be taken too seriously.’

    Theories that the universe is a quantum fluctuation must presuppose that there was something to fluctuate — their ‘quantum vacuum’ is a lot of matter-antimatter potential — not ‘nothing’. Also, I have plenty of theoretical and practical experience at quantum mechanics (QM) from my doctoral thesis work. For example, Raman spectroscopy is a QM phenomenon, but from the wavenumber and intensity of the spectral bands, we can work out the masses of the atoms and force constants of the bonds causing the bands. To help the atheist position that the universe came into existence without a cause, one would need to find Raman bands appearing without being caused by transitions in vibrational quantum states, or alpha particles appearing without pre-existing nuclei, etc. If QM was as acausal as some people think, then we should not assume that these phenomena have a cause. Then I may as well burn my Ph.D. thesis, and all the spectroscopy journals should quit, as should any nuclear physics research.

    Also, if there is no cause, there is no explanation why this particular universe appeared at a particular time, nor why it was a universe and not, say, a banana or cat which appeared. This universe can't have any properties to explain its preferential coming into existence, because it wouldn't have any properties until it actually came into existence.

    Is creation by God rational?
    A last desperate tactic by sceptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is meaningless to talk about what happened ‘before’ the universe began. But he claims that causes must precede their effects. So if nothing happened ‘before’ the universe began, then (according to Davies) it is meaningless to discuss the cause of the universe’s beginning.

    But the philosopher (and New Testament scholar) William Lane Craig, in a useful critique of Davies,10 pointed out that Davies is deficient in philosophical knowledge. Philosophers have long discussed the notion of simultaneous causation. Immanuel Kant (1724–1804) gave the example of a weight resting on a cushion simultaneously causing a depression in it. Craig says: The first moment of time is the moment of God's creative act and of creation's simultaneous coming to be.

    Some skeptics claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the nature of science. So this can’t be used to prove creation by God. Of course, sceptics can't have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.

    FURTHER READING
    More information can be found in the following works. Unfortunately they are too friendly towards the unscriptural ‘big bang’ theory with its billions of years of death, suffering and disease before Adam’s sin. But the above arguments are perfectly consistent with a recent creation in six consecutive normal days, as taught by Scripture.

    Craig, W.L., 1984. Apologetics: An Introduction,Chicago: Moody.

    Craig, W.L. online article The Existence of God and the Beginning of the Universe.

    Geisler, N.L, 1976. Christian Apologetics (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker).

    REFERENCES
    Actually, the word ‘cause’ has several different meanings in philosophy. But in this article, I am referring to the efficient cause, the chief agent causing something to be made. Return to text

    Novikov, I.D. and Zel’dovich, Ya. B., 1973. Physical Processes Near Cosmological Singularities. Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics 11:401–2. Return to text

    Schramm, D.N. and Steigman, G., 1981. Relic Neutrinos and the Density of the Universe. Astrophysical Journal 243:1–7. Return to text

    Watson, A., 1997. Clusters point to Never Ending Universe. Science 278(5342):1402. Return to text

    Perlmutter, S. et al., 1998. Discovery of a supernova explosion at half the age of the universe. Nature 391(6662):51. Perspective by Branch, D. Destiny and destiny. Same issue, pp. 23–24. Return to text

    Glanz, J. New light on the fate of the universe. Science 278(5339):799–800. Return to text

    Guth, A.H. and Sher, M., 1983. The Impossibility of a Bouncing Universe. Nature 302:505–507. Return to text

    Tinsley, B., 1975. From Big Bang to Eternity? Natural History Magazine. October, pp. 102-5. Cited in Craig, W.L., 1984. Apologetics: An Introduction ,Chicago: Moody, p. 61. Return to text

    Davies, P., 1983. God and the New Physics, Simon & Schuster, p. 215. Return to text

    Craig, W.L., 1986. God, Creation and Mr Davies. Brit. J. Phil. Sci. 37:163–175. Return to text

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #132
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    But the above arguments are perfectly consistent with a recent creation in six consecutive normal days, as taught by Scripture.
    So this is what you believe?



  3. The Drawing Room   -   #133
    JPaul,

    You lost me with "By definition,God is the uncreated creator " Who creates these arbitrary definitions? I say that God is, by definition, an entity created by man to give meaning and order to life.

    I've seen this trick before, removing God from the universe, then stating that he is outside of spacetime.

    Never understood it, seems like academic hocus pocus to me. I think it warps the concept of time.

    The real point is how does something of infinite wisdom come to exist spontaneously? He didn't, he has always been. Stating that he is outside of spacetime is nothing but an ole by the matador. The word "faith" in a scientific guise.

    But most agnostics have reached this point on their own. We don't find either have the intelligence to understand or the faith to accept this "outside of spact-time" concept.

    But even if I spot you this, how do we then go about selecting the right religion? Which version of what God wants is true? To be continued.....
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #134
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    Billy

    I merely referred you to this because, once again I thought you may be interested. If you're really not interested in seeing another view of things, different from your own that's cool.

    Perhaps others will find it interesting and a different perspective on things.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #135
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    Hobbes

    I just found the article interesting and thought that other might, it's not a problem if you didn't.

    Re the religion thing. Surely that is a wee bit academic at this point. The agnostic would require proof of God, before he or she then went into the detail of which religion they thought best.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #136
    Continued,

    (initially,there is no paper on the island, you are illiterate)


    Let me place you as King on an isolated island, your mind has been erased of society, history, and religion. What rules do you make? Well look at children, little kids would literally kill each other over a piece of bread, not out of malice, but out of singularity of purpose. It is only when we get older that we understand our mortality and role in a society.

    I would aver that this intuitive sense of "right and wrong" is nothing more than an adaption of animal behavior based on the knowledge of our own mortality and physical needs. We say it is wrong to lie, because we don't want to be lied too. It is wrong to steal because we do not wish to be the victim. In short, we create rules for a society which attempt to create stability and order by agreeing to resist our primitive urges.

    Then little Billy asks, "How did we all come to be?"

    You explain that the implications of the Big Bang lead you to believe that their is a creator outside of space-time who has placed you there.

    "Duh", says Billy, "but how does he want us to live, what are his rules? Is there life after death?"

    Look around you JPaul, what on your island tells you about God. Is it in the rocks, the water, the sky. Do you tell them about Christ? No, you have never heard of him, your society would live and die without ever hearing his name. This is not right. God should be the same anywhere, and at all times. He should be the same thing to all people. Christians know that if you do not accept Christ you will go to hell. All of you are doomed!

    At any rate, this is the beginning of your own island religion. The putting together of heads to try and figure out what this is all about. You are blessed enough with knowledge so that you can skip the Pagan phase and can advance to the more abstract conceptualization of God. Overtime, a mythology develops, perhaps you contact the adjacent local islands, each with its own stories and their stories are blended with yours. Eventually, the origins of the tales are lost. You are left with an amalgam of tales that are twisted and amended over time until you have the means to staple them together and call them a Bible. Your religion is organized and ready to repress all non- believers.


    My points:
    1. Even given that God exists, his unique separtion from spacetime would make him unknowable.

    2. Religions are created by man to define what this God is. They just make the stuff up.

    3. To me, a true religion should reflect God. Since God is the same thing everywhere, at everytime, all people should see him the same way. So one unified religion to explain the same God should have arisen. In reality, 1000s of immisible religions have been created, indicating that they reflect more about the people who created them than about God.

    4. You cannot know God, we must individually decide on a philosophy of life. When we die, can we be at peace with ourselves. Religion is just philosophy with a God thrown in. He only creates problems in my opinion.

    5. JPaul, if you are a Catholic, I can accept that perhaps you find the philosophy of this religion to be something that you agree with, but to think that Catholicism defines what God is, this is where I would disagree.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #137
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    JP, the article you posted starts with a major assumption, (totally untrue, in my (humble?) opinion). that "god" is timeless, had no beginning, and is the "..uncreated creator of the universe". I have no argument with the article, except that I think it's rubbish.

    The reason I posted this ...So this is what you believe? ... was in response to this ... ..creation in six consecutive normal days.

    I was merely asking you if you believed the universe was created in 6 working days.



  8. The Drawing Room   -   #138
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    Hobbes

    An excellent post, thanks for that I really enjoyed reading it.

    If there were a sincere smiley I would place it here.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #139
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    Billy

    I hear what you say, however I disagree with it.

    The article in it's simples form states that it can be shown that the universe we live in had a beginning and it will have an end. Further that time as we know it within the universe started at the creation of the universe.

    As we have agreed, there can be no effect without a cause. Since the universe exists there must be a cause, but as time started with the universe, then the cause must be outwith time.

    I believe that the cause was God, you do not, fair enough. What do you believe the cause was. I do not think that turtles all the way down would be a reasonable argument.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #140
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    Very interesting all.
    As I really can't adhere to either side I have so far just monitored from the sidelines. A couple of thoughts, however...

    There seems to be trend for the non-believers to use science as the tool to dispute the existence of God.
    For some reason, the believers seem willing to accept this as a basis of debate.

    What happened to the "leap of faith"? The unquestioning acceptance of the belief in a God/Higher Power? Is this, in and of itself, not the final word in the discussion?

    Hobbes, not to nit-pick or anything, but...
    3. To me, a true religion should reflect God. Since God is the same thing everywhere, at everytime is, all people should see him the same way.
    Can you even make this claim about yourself? Humans are multifaceted, we certainly do not show the same face to all people all the time so why would you expect a God to?
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

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