Obamacare

[Skiz]

Uh...

Agreed....

I believe he was referring to my typo where I stated monthly income instead of yearly.

[devilsadvocate]

If you believe you're able to refute them, then by all means let's see your data. Mine comes for factcheck.org which prides itself in it's nonpartisan reporting. I think if you do you own research, you'll find they're quite accurate.

Care to give the link because my search on factcheck drew a blank.

As there is no actual bill up for a vote yet the figures are pure speculation anyway. Either way the statement you make is a little misleading, I did like the way all the other taxes were lumped in for dramatic effect but in reality the rate would be 1-2% for the top 2% earners of the country.

Even if the claim is accurate only a tiny amount of people would actually have those rates.

On your point about other systems, as I've said before, for every horror story that is told about other systems the same stories are there with our system.

[j2k4]

If you believe you're able to refute them, then by all means let's see your data. Mine comes for factcheck.org which prides itself in it's nonpartisan reporting. I think if you do you own research, you'll find they're quite accurate.

Care to give the link because my search on factcheck drew a blank.

As there is no actual bill up for a vote yet the figures are pure speculation anyway. Either way the statement you make is a little misleading, I did like the way all the other taxes were lumped in for dramatic effect but in reality the rate would be 1-2% for the top 2% earners of the country.

Even if the claim is accurate only a tiny amount of people would actually have those rates.

On your point about other systems, as I've said before, for every horror story that is told about other systems the same stories are there with our system.

Find for me if you will a normally-occurring "horror story" in the American medical system that equates to the semi-frequent situation in socially-democratic countries wherein a patient dies because a procedure or specialist is unavailable for months or years on end, a situation which is endemic under socialist systems.

[devilsadvocate]

Find for me if you will a normally-occurring "horror story" in the American medical system that equates to the semi-frequent situation in socially-democratic countries wherein a patient dies because a procedure or specialist is unavailable for months or years on end, a situation which is endemic under socialist systems.

Prove to me that people are frequently or even "semi" frequently dying from lack of care in countries with social medicine any greater than they are in the USA.

Prove to me that insurance companies don't drop coverage or refuse to pay for treatment.

[youtube]DNHNCScYpX8[/youtube]

Here's one where the specialist is denied
[youtube]Wh0mgiwXzGM[/youtube]

Here's one where hospital care is rationed
[youtube]b4kEvdyIcBk[/youtube]


I've heard a lot about rationing by government, doesn't rationing by insurance count? Is rationing by insurance a lesser evil?

If your insurance company refuses to pay you have the option to pay yourself, if you don't have that ability then you are at the mercy of charity or the bankruptcy courts.

Explain how those options would be any different if a government health system refuses to pay.

[j2k4]

The difference would be that a wrongful death has occurred.

This line of reasoning works for people like you when arguing against the death penalty, right?

You know, the "even one wrongful death is too many..."

Like that.

[clocker]

I'm amazed by the "USA! USA! We're #1!" mentality that those opposed to health care reform exhibit.
According to the World Health Organization, despite far outspending the rest of the world (percentage of GNP), the US ranks far below most of the developed world in almost every conceivable metric...lifespan, live births per 100k, etc.
Who do they rank as the #1 healthcare system in the world?
France.

Yeah, one of those awful "socialized medicine" countries.

My parents have extensive experience with Canada's dreaded socialized system and have nothing but praise for it.
My mother, one of Colorado's longest serving hospital volunteers (just passed the 20 year mark), is appalled by the charges imposed by American insurance companies. The volunteers council patients and their visitors about how to avoid some of the egregious examples...at her hospital for instance, if you open the box of Kleenex on the bedside table- there's a lot of crying in hospitals- you get charged $22.

This is the system you guys want to defend?

My car buddy who just had back surgery has been flooded with denials from his insurance company.
They are refusing to cover any of the post-surgery physical rehab...so far, to the tune of $11K.

This is the system that you want to keep?

I think that the opposition by conservatives to health care reform has less to do with the realities of the current system than with politics in general.
Since the primary conservative mantra is that government is inept and bad, if the government took a larger part in health care and it worked, the whole basis of the conservative outlook would be exposed as the sham it is.

Better to propagate the current corporate domination of US health care than to admit your political worldview is fallacious.

[devilsadvocate]

The difference would be that a wrongful death has occurred.

This line of reasoning works for people like you when arguing against the death penalty, right?

You know, the "even one wrongful death is too many..."

Like that.

"People like me"?

Are you saying that denial or delay of treatment choice by government is (could lead to) wrongful death, but the same denial or delay by insurance isn't (couldn't)? I really don't follow your argument.

Tell me.

If someone had posted about horror stories in the US to argue for socialized medicine and I had pointed out that for every horror story in the US there is the same in countries with social medicine, which is exactly what I am saying, would you be so offended?

I would appreciate when you can get round to it if you could prove to me that people are frequently or even "semi" frequently dying from lack of care in countries with social medicine any greater than they are in the USA and that insurance companies don't drop coverage or refuse to pay for treatment as I asked.

I'm able to accept that no system is perfect.

[Rat Faced]

What will it cost Americans?

If your average yearly income is:

$80K:

Health care tax penalty (for not subscribing to health care, you get fined): $2,000
Federal income tax on wages: $16,187
NY state income tax: $5,083
Misc taxes: $5,210
35.48% of income to taxes

$235K

Federal income tax: $$79,191
NY state tax: $19,976
Healthcare tax hike (courtesy of the Dems): $2,850
Misc taxes: $13,237
40.44% of income to taxes

Couple earning $1.5 million

Federal income tax: $455,153
NY state tax: $125,153
Healthcare tax hike of 5.4%: $81K
(fork over a whopping!!)56.92% in income taxes

If Obamacare is passed, 39 states would exceed 50% of peoples income going toward paying for taxes.

The list of reason to vote again this is huge.

Is there anyone who believes this is a good idea?

We've been through this before..

USA spends a greater % of GDP on healthcare than just about everywhere else, and still doesnt have a Universal Healthcare system.

This is because the Drug Companies and Medical Companies charge so much that they are 16% of your total GDP and wish to keep it that way.

If you lot want them to rip you off to such an extent, that is your privelage, however why the hell should the poor have to suffer because you allow that to happen?

[bigboab]

Here is a circular I received this morning from my brother-in-law in Ohio;

***************

SENIOR DEATH WARRANTS:

The actress Natasha Richardson died after falling skiing in Canada . It took eight hours to drive her to a hospital. If Canada had our healthcare she might be alive today. In the United States , we have medical evacuation helicopters that would have gotten her to the hospital in 30 minutes.

In England anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered as being too expensive and not needed.

Obama wants to have a healthcare system just like Canada 's and England 's.

I got this today and am sending it on. If Obama's plans in other areas don't scare you, this should. Please do not let Obama sign senior death warrants. Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen, is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senate version (at least) of the "stimulus" Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:

Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that
come with age instead of treating them."

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out. Talk it up at the grassroots level. We have an election coming up in one year and nine months. And we have the ability to address and reverse the dangerous direction the Obama administration and its allies have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable. Let's do this!

***********
My brother-in-law thinks that this circular is very scary considering his knowledge of how good the British National Health service is.

[clocker]

The actress Natasha Richardson died after falling skiing in Canada . It took eight hours to drive her to a hospital. If Canada had our healthcare she might be alive today. In the United States , we have medical evacuation helicopters that would have gotten her to the hospital in 30 minutes.

If your brother-in-law believes this crap, he's an idiot.

On 16 March 2009, Richardson sustained a head injury, when she fell while taking a skiing lesson at the Mont Tremblant Resort in Quebec, about 130 km from Montreal. The injury was followed by a lucid interval, when Richardson seemed to be fine and was able to talk and act normally. Paramedics and an ambulance which initially responded to the accident were told they were not needed and left.[16] Refusing medical attention, she returned to her hotel room and about three hours later was taken to a local hospital in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts after complaining of a headache.

So let's see...
Initial responders were turned away and medical attention was refused.

This somehow translates into proof of a system-wide Canadian failure and the speculation that Richardson would have survived had she refused care in the USA.

I'm pretty sure that Canada has medivac helicopters just like we do, although unless they are actually summoned to the scene, they probably aren't too effective.

This kind of willful distortion of fact is typical of the anti-healthcare reform platform.