Biggles (?) is closest to my view...
Biggles (?) is closest to my view...
well, then prove it wrong, I really don't know what to say coz I am still a beginner.Originally posted by GS1969@23 March 2004 - 16:41
I studied Buddhism briefly as well and it's about 1/2 right. If you read the dudes post about Buddhism the first part is cool. We are all one. Dont' hurt anything because you are just hurting yourself. Be nice to everyone. That's cool stuff, but then comes the hokey crap; spirits, hungry ghosts, reencarnation, all that typical sliding back into the opiate of the masses stuff.
The Buddha was this real guy who lived in India about 500 BC or so, and he came up with all this cool stuff, these great ideas about not fucking over other people, but then he does this backslide into the typical, jissy spirit world, ooh, ghosts and spirits. What a load of crap that totally puts his philosophy into the cheese category, and believe me, I'm including all the major religions with a "god" in this cheese category as well.
Why the dude couldn't just stop with the "be nice" is beyond me.
Confucius was kind of the same as is Daoism, and hell, Christianity for that matter. They all have great philosophies, but then they go to far and say stuff like "Oh and by the way, I talked with God the other day and so I know what's right, that'll be $29.95, pay at the door."
G
BKK
you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself, why should I believe you? and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact.
well, then prove it wrong, I really don't know what to say coz I am still a beginner.Originally posted by caza+24 March 2004 - 00:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (caza @ 24 March 2004 - 00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GS1969@23 March 2004 - 16:41
I studied Buddhism briefly as well and it's about 1/2 right. If you read the dudes post about Buddhism the first part is cool. We are all one. Dont' hurt anything because you are just hurting yourself. Be nice to everyone. That's cool stuff, but then comes the hokey crap; spirits, hungry ghosts, reencarnation, all that typical sliding back into the opiate of the masses stuff.
The Buddha was this real guy who lived in India about 500 BC or so, and he came up with all this cool stuff, these great ideas about not fucking over other people, but then he does this backslide into the typical, jissy spirit world, ooh, ghosts and spirits. What a load of crap that totally puts his philosophy into the cheese category, and believe me, I'm including all the major religions with a "god" in this cheese category as well.
Why the dude couldn't just stop with the "be nice" is beyond me.
Confucius was kind of the same as is Daoism, and hell, Christianity for that matter. They all have great philosophies, but then they go to far and say stuff like "Oh and by the way, I talked with God the other day and so I know what's right, that'll be $29.95, pay at the door."
G
BKK
you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself, why should I believe you? and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. [/b][/quote]
and I guess you misunderstand the concept, the ghost world is not the world you learn from other religions or TV, it is just a state of mind which you feel suffering.
if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name,human is nothing(it's why buddha told us not to insist on "self" or "ego"). the same is for particle. Buddha found this more than two thousands ago before science even created. This is just the most basic knowlegde in sutra.
If there is God, then who create god? in buddhism, everything is empty, everything is impermaent (scientist discovered this only in recent time), then what is God? nothing.
here is my little thought:
Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.
Lagomorph
I agree with GS1969, it is just a different packaging of the same bullshit.
The burden of proof lies upon the person proclaiming that Buddism is the right choice, not the person questioning it.
It believe that pink ponies in the sky guide us and we must meditate upon this to achieve true enlightment. Prove to me I'm wrong.
Buddism is like the "earth grain cereal" of spiritual thought, it is the fad of the pseudo-intellectual. Everyone seems drawn to the this unknown, this deep Eastern philosophy. They reject the superficiality of the Western culture and search for their deep emotions, blah, blah blah.
What total crap. Go ahead, get brain washed, everyone who needs a pain pill to ease their fear of death does this in one way or another.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
I know two novices arguing about Buddhism may not lead to enlightenment. I’m sure both of us have gaping holes in our understanding, but at least we can look critically at what each other has to say and we’ll sort of muddle through from there. Let’s see….
~~~ well, then prove it wrong~~~
Well I think Hobbes is right there, it’s not up to me to disprove your heaven and hell and your other six realms, your hungry ghosts and your devas. I can dig your humans an animals but the other stuff you talk about is unproven. It is not correct to ask me to disprove something that you have no proof of in the first place.
~~~ you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself~~~
The only thing I have asked people to believe is be good to other people. You’re right, I can’t prove that being good is right, you know why? because there is no ‘greater truth’. There is no god or spirit force or nature laying down the spiritual law for us. This is terrifying for people. If there is nothing to fear after you die then why should you do anything in life that isn’t for simple self gratification? If I think you have a nice car why don’t I just take it? If I like the looks of a girl, why don’t I smack her over the head with a club and drag her into the bushes and have sex with her? If I don’t like you, why can’t I kill you? Why? For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right. Not because I will be judged after I die either by your “natural” force that, I’m sorry is the same as God. You may not say it, but something judges you right? Sends you to heaven or hell? You conveniently call it nature, but no, it’s not natural. Nature doesn’t care who the hell you kill, or rob, or rape. I don’t do it because it’s not nice, and I don’t do lesser things because I am afraid of Johnny Law.
~~~ and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. ~~~
I know there is no god in Buddhism. But you know what? People still pray to the Buddha. The have deified a man. Hmm, sort of like the Christians have done. So what is the difference between praying to this skinny dude on a cross, or a contemplative dude sitting cross-legged on a pedestal? They both personify a philosophy no? They both represent a greater truth no? They are both prayed to? Hell, Buddhists even give offerings to Buddha everyday, like cans of pop, open, complete with straws, apparently Buddha prefers Red Fanta (I live in Thailand BTW, BKK is Bangkok if anyone didn’t know). Buddhists say there is no god but they still pray to a “spirit world” therefore their distinction between god and not god is invalid. Be a Buddhist in philosophy but do not pray to Buddha, because then you are admitting he is a god.
~~~ if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name~~~
Sorry dude, gotta call bullshit on this one. If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake? If you get a haircut, is not what you have remaining still called hair? If you step on a landmine and loose your legs, are you still not human?
These Socratic arguments are simple crap. People call things, things. There is no definition written by the hand of god or the hand of nature saying “This is man”, “This is computer”. Thaye are simple conventions used by people to help communicate. Which touches upon another great point of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity and whatever else; that language cannot desribe adequately the spirit world. There are no words for it. It is beyond human comprehension. When one does catch a glimpse of it, that is enlightenment, and that is hokey. Let’s spend our lives meditating to understand something that we cannot desribe, because it’s not real. This is just a cop out for the leaders of their respective philosophies. "There is something else out there that we cannot begin to understand", not.
~~~ Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.~~~
“obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone”? Why the hell not? There is nothing obvious about this at all. Yes there is an effect, the dude he killed is dead, and all of the ramifications that go along with that, but as far as some mojo booga booga effect in the afterlife for our murderer, sorry, ashes to ashes dust to dust, our boy and his killer end up in the same dust bin, destined to be recycled back into the universe, uhbadee uhbadee uhbadee that’s all folks. Don’t try to scare me with your afterlife, convince me to live by the rules of this plane, either by raising me correctly with a strong sense of right and wrong or a healthy fear of retribution by the Johnny Law or Clint Eastwood.
Once again, simply do not do anything to cause suffering to others. Save the spirits for Ghostbusters.
I know what I write sometimes sounds angry and confrontational, I'm sorry for that, it's not meant to be, I'm actually have a very good time.
G
BKK
Lagomorph
GS,
Sometimes we sound angry and confrontational because we are frustrated, not because we are mean people.
My goal is to find something I can believe in, and when I reject a religion or philosophy, it is not out of spite, but out of a disappointment that "this one" didn't pan out either.
Our goal is to be honest with ourselves and when we are asked to swallow the panecea of faith we regurgitate this, whether it is about a God or a false philosophy.
We are all looking for something to believe in, something that will swaddle us in warmth and peace. Such things cannot be bought or desired, but must come from careful consideration of what we know and not from some blind jump into faith.
We do become a bit surly when children spouting poorly understood gibberish tell us what is right and what we should believe.
We want to believe in something, but you have to give us a convincing reason why. Faith centered ideologies are a dime a dozen.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
No one's proclaiming buddhism is the right choice here, only the choice lies upon a person, it's your right to believe in something or nothing. and what are you questioning? you've denied it with an attitude Buddhism is another packaging before you looked at it. Buddhism tells you to question about everything even itself before you study it, what other religions tell you to question themselves?coz they are afraid to be proved wrong. if you find Buddhism wrong, then prove it, you find it unbelievable coz it seems to be unprovable.Originally posted by hobbes@24 March 2004 - 01:47
I agree with GS1969, it is just a different packaging of the same bullshit.
The burden of proof lies upon the person proclaiming that Buddism is the right choice, not the person questioning it.
It believe that pink ponies in the sky guide us and we must meditate upon this to achieve true enlightment. Prove to me I'm wrong.
Buddism is like the "earth grain cereal" of spiritual thought, it is the fad of the pseudo-intellectual. Everyone seems drawn to the this unknown, this deep Eastern philosophy. They reject the superficiality of the Western culture and search for their deep emotions, blah, blah blah.
What total crap. Go ahead, get brain washed, everyone who needs a pain pill to ease their fear of death does this in one way or another.
I'm just saying Buddhism is helpful for getting the answer of some questions almost everyone've thought about but couldn't answer by themselves or science and not telling you to go to church or temple or meditate (also, I have to mention mediation is not "pink ponies in sky", the main purpose of mediation is for strengthening your control on your mind, for example, you had an assignment due tomorrow, but you couldn't control your mind and went to play video game or party).
so what's wrong with it? is it so important to care if it's deep eastern or western philosophy or whatever you call if you can find the answer? and buddhism is not just about philosophy. Buddhism was created more than two thousands ago, the western culture was not superior at the time, why they wanted to reject the western culture? I guess we just have different styles.
why someone died in a car accident but not you? what if the person went out 10 mintues late, do you think the person wouldn't die in another accident? why there are so many people die of hunger but not you?
go ahead, explain it with scientific method.
now you are waiting answer from scientist, aren't you? you probably won't get the answer in your whole lifetime, if rebirth is true, you probably wait another million or billion years to be reborned as a human again. Probably there will be no human.
hmm, seems it is getting interesting here. It will take a lot of time to answer. but please pay attention this is discussion not argument before I squeeze time to talk to you.
another thing, I think we should not discriminate any religion first otherwise, there is no point to discuss.
and also I admit I'm a novice, the things I cannot explain does not mean they are wrong, the purpose is to find the truth not competition coz there is no reward. thanks.
Lagomorph
You explain "bad luck" as penance for improper acts in a former life. How absolutely simple and equally unproven.
Care to make up any more fairy tales.
If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life. Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A 12 year old could come up with something better than this.
Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world. I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse.
Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y".
What does "there will be no human" mean? As long as an entity is aware of itself as an individual, who cares what it is called. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master.
I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy. This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls". Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really.
As far as your edit, all of us are searching for "the truth" and we have dismissed your thought upon reflection of their merits, not in an effort to be mean.
Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?
Well, nothing really new has been said this time.
Hobbes is right about the holy grail of ancient wisdom. The other big Eastern philosophies of Confucianism and Taoism are pretty much based on this. Confucius had great things to say, fabulous things, but he totally copped out by saying they were all from the ancients texts, therefore he didn’t have to defend any of what he said, he just said crap like the ancients say it’s so, therefore that’s the way it is. Good stuff but pretty weak.
Chuang Tzu was sort of the same, he was the big Taoist guy that said the stuff like in ancient times Blah Blah could do blah blah like ride the winds with thought, if only we could have his knowledge we could ride the winds too. That’s what a lot of the Asian Taoists are doing today in meditation, trying to recapture some of the ancient wisdom so they can become gods. There is this old guy that lives in China and that is his specif goal, to become a god and be prayed to, totally selfish, it’s dumbasses like that who spend their whole lives studying a philosophy only to gain the secret power that they themselves can wield over others. Watching National Geographic or whoever interviewing this guy was just sad, what a jack ass.
Caza, what do you mean by “I think we should not discriminate any religion first otherwise, there is no point to discuss.” I’m totally cool that English isn’t your first language and but I just don’t know what you mean exactly. Are you trying to say “don’t speak disparagingly of religion”? I’m not sure, and why not?
Here is my philosophy, Let’s call it Gregism, well, gimme a break, I’ll come up with something better later. Do not do anything to cause suffering to anyone. Why not? Do not be afraid of the afterlife. Do not be afraid of Hell. Do not be afraid of vengeful spirits. Do not think that you will be rewarded with a ticket to heaven. Do not think that by killing an enemy you will be rewarded with 73 virgins in the afterlife ( that’s got to be the best yet, what a bunch of losers). Do not wait for a rebirth into anything, lights out, time to go to bed. Just stand on your own two feet and be a good person for fucks sake! Everyone knows what’s right and what’s wrong. Religions were made for shits like George W Bush who are willing to sacrifice his own people to make a dollar.
Aw hell, now I’m getting political, sorry about that,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Once Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Tzu. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Tzu who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu. Between Chuang Tzu and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doens't mean anything but damn it's cool.
G
BKK
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