Atheist Pleads With Justices

[Busyman]

Originally posted by bowrabob@26 March 2004 - 10:15
Is this the new sport now ... Arm bashing? Can't 16 year olds have opinions? l'm on your side Arm, you keep thinking for yourself and you'll become an inteligent adult.

No I'm saying Arm bashed himself.

He a "person" that doesn't give a damn about anything.

So why should I care about what he has to say.

Pretty simple to me.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Biggles@26 March 2004 - 12:38
The pledge is not really my area of expertise. Nevertheless, it does not appear to specify which God. It could therefore be a pledge to Mammon, or to your favourite automobile. Who would would know or care?

However, I do recall though that Bart Simpson had to write lines on the blackboard the gist of which was "the pledge of allegiance does not end Hail Satan"

Busyman, are you really saying that without the restraining fear of being an everlasting toasted muffin on a pitch fork you would run amuk?

Incidently, why did they change it in the 1950s were the founding fathers just plain wrong?

Biggles oh Biggles please read it again.

I didn't say "Because of my belief in God I would not kill everyone".

Come on man.

Have you ever had an evil thought?

Having the thought of killing someone makes you crazy?
I didn't even say I constantly think about killing but my belief in God just...just...just stops me. Arrrgh!!!

Do know for what reasons?

Or is everyone taking the moral high ground?

[Biggles]

Busyman

I think you live in a different world from me. I do get irritated with people. I do have bad days. However, at times, from things you say, you appear to live in a war zone.





Ok, Ok, I am a wuss - if a bee gets trapped in my house I get a glass and a postcard so I can set it free.

[Phyltre]

There's another side to this, too. There's some religions, one in fact that I sed to belong to when I was five, that don't recite the pledge at all because they don't believe in unquestioningly pledging one's allegiance to an entity other than God or say, a spouse or children. Especially a political entity.

So the fact that God is included in the pledge just isn't good enough, in their view. They kind of have a point; I mean, theoretically, every person that recites the pledge has basically no grounds for protesting any law it makes or political policy that gets created. That's what allegiance IS, by definition. Either you trust whatever or you don't.

And from a wholly un-religious standpoint, the pledge is basically just propaganda. I agree with most of what America stands for, but if a minor cannot have a legally binding contract, why do we teach them to mindlessly pledge their allegiance to America?

[vidcc]

in thinking about the "anti american " bit here.

i don't think that when one objects to the way HIS country is run it would make him anti American, rather anti politition.
We all have objections to our "leaders" that doesn't make us unpatriotic, just free thinkers. I would say that to many Americans the pledge appears to be a pledge to the government of the day. Just as other lands see our governments actions as being completely representative of us, so do some Americans. The rights or wrongs of this are purely personal.
Often i have seen comments on this board that are aimed at being a dig at the USA from other nationalities and the recoil about american bashing was fierce. Well who has the right to question our ethics better than an American?. And ALL Americans have the right to free speech without the backlash of "get out if you don't like it".
Advancement doesn't come from the status quo, it comes from people questioning the status quo and the resulting debate.

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by Biggles+26 March 2004 - 08:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Biggles &#064; 26 March 2004 - 08:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Incidently, why did they change it in the 1950s were the founding fathers just plain wrong? [/b]

the founding fathers had nothing to do with it. the pledge was written by a commie baptist minister in 1892.

Bellamy commented on his thoughts as he created the pledge, and his reasons for choosing the careful wording:

"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the &#39;republic for which it stands.&#39; ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

"Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, &#39;Liberty, equality, fraternity.&#39; No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy



<!--QuoteBegin-Phyltre
I mean, theoretically, every person that recites the pledge has basically no grounds for protesting any law it makes or political policy that gets created.[/quote]
no... wrong. the pledge was written as an expression of loyalty to the nation&#39;s founding principles as set down in the constitution & its amendments, and of unity & fraternity with one&#39;s countrymen. it&#39;s not about obedience to the whims of every politician and passing fad that comes down the pike. dissent and protest are great american traditions.

"under god" just doesn&#39;t fit into the pledge because the intention of the pledge was to reinforce the value of unity. a statement of vague religious affiliation added nothing to that sentiment, and even undermined it by introducing a point of unnecessary division/exclusion. there may as well be an extra line in there, declaring one&#39;s preference for a certain sports team or soft drink.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Biggles@26 March 2004 - 17:38
The pledge is not really my area of expertise. Nevertheless, it does not appear to specify which God. It could therefore be a pledge to Mammon, or to your favourite automobile. Who would would know or care?

However, I do recall though that Bart Simpson had to write lines on the blackboard the gist of which was "the pledge of allegiance does not end Hail Satan"

Busyman, are you really saying that without the restraining fear of being an everlasting toasted muffin on a pitch fork you would run amuk?

Incidently, why did they change it in the 1950s were the founding fathers just plain wrong?

Biggles,

This topic was discussed here before you were even contemplating your first rant

Here is a little history on the "Pledge of Allegiance"

Pledge

A snipet from that post.

Here is the original pledge of allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.&#39;" He considered placing the word, &#39;equality,&#39; in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * &#39;to&#39; added in October, 1892. ]

The current version, which includes "under God" was added in the 1950s, in that delightfully McCarthyesque time, to separate us from those Godless Russians.

edit: looks like Brianiac beat me to it, that&#39;s what I get for not reading to the end before replying.

[J'Pol]

Let me get this right.

In the home of the free, children must pledge allegiance and have no option in this and neither do their parents. Is that what we are saying.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@26 March 2004 - 12:39
Let me get this right.

In the home of the free, children must pledge allegiance and have no option in this and neither do their parents. Is that what we are saying.

there is not compulsion to say pledge (unless you wish to become a citizen, then you make the pledge at the ceromony)
it&#39;s said as a matter of course rather like they used to have prayers in assembly in the Uk ( i hear that&#39;s not normal these days)

[Phyltre]

3rainiac, you just called my previous religion wrong. Not that it offends me or anything, you have the right to say that, but just because you have the opinion doesn&#39;t make it the kill-all. Rational belief systems are built on the fact that "allegiance" means more than just appreciating the precepts and concepts.

I think that&#39;s what allegiance means, who you listen to in a pinch. "The Republic" is a pretty large term, and I think it&#39;s just more than the constitution and fraternal relationships.

So, basically, no government or nation is worth devoting one&#39;s self to in comparison to one&#39;s higher allegiances to morality, religion, or at the least self interest.