Uk Id Cards

[vidcc]

chevy..... very valid information to the thread...thanks.

someone will obviously be voluntarily paying for the card before it becomes compulsory

[leftism]

Can anyone provide evidence of the security that ID cards will bring? Perhaps one could begin by visiting Madrid and asking the people there? Weren't the 9/11 hijackers correctly identified as well?

If ID cards make such a big difference in the fight against crime, then why don't we see a corresponding difference when we compare the crime figures in the UK with countries in Europe where they already have them? Perhaps.. because they don't make a noteable difference?

What bothers me about ID cards is the extra functionality. Today it'll be your biometric details, tomorrow your DNA, the day after: your banking details, they day after that: your health details, they day after that: your voting preferences and so on. How long before this ever increasing mine of information starts 'leaking'?

I know authoritarians get a serious hard on about ID cards but ,to me, this seems to be a case of the emperors new clothes.

PS

Anyone considered the possibility that this database will get hacked? A centralised database with information on every individual in the UK that has to be available over a network to a wide variety of organisations seems like a high priority target to me.

[Rat Faced]

People choose whether they want to drive a car.. and hence get a license.

If they dont have a car, then the insurance isnt compulsary nor the MOT...its a choice.

People choose whether they want to travel abroad, passports are not compulsary.


National Insurance numbers are issued, and i lost my "Card" about 3 months after i got the thing when i was 16.... I dont need it, i am not asked for it.

Same goes for my NHS number.


This will not be a choice... there is a huge difference.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@27 April 2004 - 19:09
People choose whether they want to drive a car.. and hence get a license.

If they dont have a car, then the insurance isnt compulsary nor the MOT...its a choice.

People choose whether they want to travel abroad, passports are not compulsary.


National Insurance numbers are issued, and i lost my "Card" about 3 months after i got the thing when i was 16.... I dont need it, i am not asked for it.

Same goes for my NHS number.


This will not be a choice... there is a huge difference.

I was only making the point that we are already regulated to a large extent. I did not mean to suggest that the issues are directly or completely analogous.

Obviously one has the choice whether or not to drive, however once the choice is made then there is the cost of learning, the cost of taking and passing the test. Not just price but also time. I think the average is 20 - 25 lessons at around £25 each. I believe that most people spend between £500 - £1,000 getting a driving licence.

The insurance will then be several hundred pounds per year. For a new driver it may be as much as £500 - £1,000 depending on the location, age, type of vehicle etc.

As you say people do not need to do this, however a lot, if not most, choose to. They want the freedom and job opportunities that a car affords them. When they make this choice none of the above cost in money, time etc is really optional.

If drivers are involved in any type of road incident then they will be instructed to produce their documents to the Police within a given time, again this is not optional.

I have no problem with the card, I think the benefits outweigh the minor inconvenience of carrying it. It will certainly cost me less to have then the bloody car sitting at the door, which I couldn't really do without.

You feel differently, I am entirely cool with that. We are all entitled to different opinions.

[Biggles]

I do have an objection to being charged for additional ID.

By all means have one system whereby the ID can also carry driving licence and passport data - I can see both a practical benefit and savings in administration. It would be possible to start out in life with an ID card for everyone and then as one's requirements through life develop it can be added to. Consequently, the overall system would cost less than running with 4 or 5 different sources.

However, I do object in principle to being charged separately for all these items. There is talk of spreading the charge between the passport and the ID (raising around £40 from each). If this is the case I will end up forking out for myself and family around £250 (or $400 for our US comrades) and this is a tad steep in my view.

There are cheats and fraudsters and these will have most to fear from an ID system. This is good, but spending £3.5b to save £3b is of minimal benefit to the Treasury. The idea is sound - now lets see if we can do it at a sensible cost.
....Am I just mean?

Incidently, it will do nothing for security as visitors to the country will not have a card and home grown terrorists will almost certainly be model citizens until they strike.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by J'Pol@25 April 2004 - 21:18
Perhaps the card should only be for those who don't already have a passport which contains the same details as the card would.

Biggles

I believe we may agree on this point.

With regard to the £3billion, that related just to halving specific excise fraud. Nothing to do with Benefits, VAT and the myriad other types. It would also equate to a yearly reduction in that fraud, not just a one-off.

[vidcc]

i appreciate that the driving licence/permit is a compulsory thing and it does serve as ID, however that is an issue of safety. look at the carnage on the roads caused by people that have passed the test and gained the licence...just think what it would be like if is was an optional thing.
a compulsory ID card wouldn't really be the same thing at all (you don't become a safer pedestrian)
why argue for one less freedom because you already have some other form of control?..where would one draw the line.
As for the arguement of "duty fraud" well if the UK government made the duty more in line with the rest of the "unified" EU then they would take away the need to smuggle in the first place. People tend to buy things that are cheaper and thereby tax would be collected. Any arguement about the need for duty to be collected is contradicted by the fact that the "duty" is supposed to deter people from things like smoking and as argued by someone it is not to raise revenue as it is not tax.

yes the ID will cost less than having a car sat outside....but it would cost even less if you didn't have to have the id in the first place. But then the car licence is a record of one being able to safely drive a car on the day of the test ...not a permit to be a citizen of the country you were born in

[Alex H]

Here in Australia, we've had the same issue crop up. This is from a post I wrote a few months ago:

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YOU WANT US TO CARRY COMPULSORY IDENTIFICATION PAPERS?

No way! The western world has a long and bloodstained history of fighting totalitarian regimes, and if anyone thinks that their freedom will be ensured by an ID card you are gravely mistaken.

Eg. We have a "100 point ID check" system here, so if you are applying for a bank account, drivers licence, etc you have to have enough documnets to make up the 100 points. A driver's licence is worth 60, an electricity bill is worth 20, a birth certificate is worth 50, etc.

So if the new ID card is forge-proof, I should only have to front up with my card and I can get anything because it is secure, ie. I don't need all the others.

What happens if I loose it, or it gets stolen with the rest of my wallet?

First, I have a major problem. I am unidentifiable. I cannot prove who I am. Therefore I have to get a new ID card. I have to bring my 100 points of ID to get the card.

So if I still have to have all my other ID, why get a new one? All the other stuff can be forged easily.

It will be a minor hiccup to terrorists and a major incovenience to the rest of the 99.9999999% of the population.


So instead of carrying an ID card I can easily loose, why not just tattoo a serial number onto my forearm?

Image Resized
[img]http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Henry_Oertelt_-_An_Unbroken_Ch/Auschwitz_Tattoo/pic12t.jpg' width='200' height='120' border='0' alt='click for full size view'>

Auschwitz Tattoo. Number of Henry Oertelt B11291.

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I still feel exactly the same way about it. My work (Electronic Funds Transfers and security) has allowed me to see some of the biometric technology in action, and believe me, a determined person will be able to circumvent it, perhaps not in such an extreme way as Tom Cruise getting new eyeballs in Minority Report (although depending on the security features, it could certainly be an option), but things like fingerprint matches are (comparibly) easy to fake cause I've watched it being done in a lab.

If anyone has seen the movie "Gattaca", you'll remember how easy it was for people to only focus on the DNA scans, to the extent that no-one would bother to just look at your face. If someone steals your card, it would be very easy for them to somhow get a fingerprint from you too. Then a fake fingerprint overlay (the method I am familiar with) and a make up kit (I doubt a physical examination would happen) would be enough to create a new legitimate card. Throw in some name changes by deed poll and a bunch of other technology (which may be located overseas) and you could have a brand new fake ID.

All this would be very complicate technically, but the point is it could be done. And it would be big business for organized crime syndicates. What happens if 3 years into the release of the new cards it becomes evident that they are forgable? Do the citizens of Britian have to all get new cards?

Or like Microsoft, would you just pay for an upgrade?

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Alex H@28 April 2004 - 06:31
If someone steals your card, it would be very easy for them to somhow get a fingerprint from you too.

Too right! With a big pair of clippers they could just snip your finger right off!


This is no joke, I can't sleep at night thinking about this stuff sometimes...

[SeK612]

Agreed this might make it difficult for criminals or terrorists to operate but, as with most things, a way may be found around it (for example using people who have been British citizens for a long time and have a clean record to carry out parts of attacks to diffuse suspicion).