Uk Id Cards

[lynx]

My passport expires later this year, so I need a new one - no problem. Except that I may want to go to the US in a couple of year's time so I will need one with biometric data (iris scan) so I'll need another. But that won't be good enough after 2007 (no fingerprint data) so I'll need another.

My driving license is so old that it is dropping to bits. I need a new one now. But it won't have the biometric information on it so in a couple of years I'll probably need another.

Now they tell me I will need an ID card too. How much do you want to bet that the data held on all these will be out of date in a few years time, so I'll have to get them replaced again.

If I have to pay for all of these, the personal cost is likely to run into several hundred pounds. God help anyone who has a family. If the state is going to pay, the cost for ID cards is unlikely to be only £40 per head (when have government estimates ever been close to accurate) and with replacement needed every few years (if they are going to be effective) we are likely to see ANNUAL costs approaching £3 billion.

Do any of these things make me more or less likely to commit offences of one kind or another? Not at all, most offences are committed in the belief that the perpetrator won't get caught. People do things even when they know that cameras are on them, they still don't expect to get caught.

Someone who is determined to commit some sort of attrocity is unlikely to be deterred by an ID card. In fact if the person is going to carry out a suicide bombing, they know damn well they will be "caught" afterwards, but if the bomb is large enough they may well "slip through the net".

It is another of David Blunkett's crackpot ideas. When he was leader of Sheffield Council, he bankrupted the city with equally ludicrous schemes which are still being paid for, and I believe he became an MP over 15 years ago.

[j2k4]

Lynx-

Please resist any urge you may feel to become a perpetrator.

I would hate to have to forego our association due to a moral lapse on your part.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by lynx@28 April 2004 - 08:58

It is another of David Blunkett's crackpot ideas. When he was leader of Sheffield Council, he bankrupted the city with equally ludicrous schemes which are still being paid for, and I believe he became an MP over 15 years ago.

so is the old saying true ?................. a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there

I am not mocking his physical blindness, i wouldn't wish that on anyone, rather his political vision

[sArA]

I have avoided this thread because, I am completely and utterly against ID smart cards and I was reluctant to throw myself in as so many of you seem to think its ok.

However, I just have to put my 2 penneth worth in...

This is an area close to my work, I know enough about the subject to be pretty sure that ID cards are not going to make any difference to our levels of security but will ultimately cost us our liberty.

these quotes contain concerns voiced years ago and yet are remarkably predictive...


‘when surveillance is employed in political systems that are considered democratic, it is legitimised and restricted on grounds of necessity’ (Raab, 1997 p.156-7).

Basically, we (the government) tell you its needed and we accept it cos we want to be safe, but....

‘the danger of using the information society concept uncritically is to disguise or gloss over the reality of domination by powerful interests’ (Lyon,1988 p.149).

Help!!! I'm being oppressed! :helpsmile:


The latest concerns about ID cards from a different source than the usual media and one that is consulted and recognised as having a legitimate view. (respected academic activist group)

http://www.privacyinternational.org/issues...d-terrorism.pdf


Privacy is critical to bestow intimacy, allow for innovation and to maintain dignity. The loss of privacy is inevitable with the introduction of compulsory ID smart cards.

They are a BAD idea....

This is my view...I don't expect anyone to agree with me.....but then a lot of people do...I guess its nice to able to have an opinion anonymously (soon to be lost at a democracy near you&#33

[Barbarossa]

Why not go the whole hog and microchip everyone in the back of the head. Even better if they could use satellite tracking to tell where we are at any given time.

This would be tremendous in solving crimes!

[j2k4]

Sara-

Sounds like you have good info that could bear on the argument.

Unless you are bound somehow by legalities or proprietary matters, could you give us a peek under the canvas?

[sArA]

@barbie....only a matter of time


Ok....some more sources....

http://www.ccsr.cse.dmu.ac.uk/resources/sh...gory=1,6&sort=0

I used to work here, still collaborate occasionally, there are some interesting articles on ID cards written within the last few years.

Also....this is an excellent (if rather academic) site for Surveillance stuff....

http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/


And a bit of insider knowledge...

I was an invited participant last year at the Center for Digital Government at Harvard, where ID cards and their uses were discussed. There were a lot of people there who are experts in this area not just a bunch of fuck heads sitting round and talking bollocks! The discussion centred around the issues of universal personal identification, its justification and practical application as well as civil liberties issues. Lets just say that pretty much no-one thought they were a very good idea in the round in that they just don't work to prevent terrorism or crime (the main reason we are all expected to embrace ID cards in the first place).

They are not secure, the data is subject to innapropriate access and use, the data can be incorrectly input and then can be damn near impossible to correct, or even to locate as there will be multiple databases with the data in. The problems of profiling where biometric data is used to identify you and other data is used to decide what sort of person you are will mean that the whole concept of innocent until proven guilty will be turned on its head.

Biometric data is only as good as its collection, retrieval and storage (problems then may occur for individuals in the refusal of services or wrongful arrest etc,...can you imagine trying to convince a petty official that the biometric data on your wonderful, foolproof and totally secure and reliable smart card is actually wrong?)

They do however offer great potential for governments and other agencies to track and control the law abiding and therefore non-threatening part of the population.

There has long been an argument that 'if you are doing nothing wrong then what is the problem?' Fine and dandy in principle, but perhaps not so if you happen to be say an Arab or a Muslim or interested in politics, animal welfare, heavy metal, fast cars, porn, P2P, etc, etc, etc.... in fact...anything that 'could' be deemed as potentially of 'concern' to the authorities.

This is not a doomsday scenario, this is all insidiously creeping into our society through fear and government's desire for control.

To be honest, there are so many sources out there its just a case of googling.

Or just read Orwell's 1984 again, with one eye on current developments in technology.

I reiterate that the above is not just 'my' opinion, this is based on research and debate in the field.

I told you I felt strongly didn't I? Now you know why!

[Rat Faced]

"The Government has failed to show that similar schemes in other countries have helped to reduce identity fraud. Indeed, in the U.S., the universal use of Social Security Numbers--a scheme not unlike the one the U.K. government is proposing--has led to a huge growth in identity fraud," the Law Society writes in its official response to the program.

"Despite a compulsory identity card scheme, France continues to battle problems such as illegal working, illegal immigration and identity fraud--the very things the Home Office hopes to address with identity cards. If an identity card has not eliminated these challenges in France, what makes the Home Office believe that these problems can be resolved with an identity card scheme in the U.K.?" the Law Society asks.

source

[Alex H]

Quite true Rat Faced. Having ID papers for when you get a job or to prove who you are are great, however for the millions of people out there in the cash economy the whole system is circumvented by an ilegal immigrant willing to take a 40% wage cut for cash payment.

Couldn't governments just do the old "more police on the streets" thing instead of wasting time and money on electronic checks, re-checks, scans and data processing?

[Biggles]

Originally posted by barbarossa@30 April 2004 - 10:00
Why not go the whole hog and microchip everyone in the back of the head. Even better if they could use satellite tracking to tell where we are at any given time.

This would be tremendous in solving crimes!

Don't give Mr. Blunkett ideas.