Bush's Speech..

[j2k4]

Lots of propaganda to be consumed; more than fact. (It has a higher "FATHEAD" content than fact).
My Daddy always told me to smell Bullshit before tasting it.
If a "BULLSHIT" detector were part of a utility program everyone had access to, then I think it would be a case of "Neither we nor the Emperor are clothed".

[Rocktron]

I just think that any kind of violence is wrong!
Amerika is a country where the the little kids are growing up using guns... for "hunting" .. right!
Bullshit man!

In Amerika all the people can buy guns in almost every shop!

If you carry 10 grams of weed, you will get molested! But if you carry a gun you get it back!!!!! What's wrong?
The whole Gun Law!! That's wrong!

Amerika has learned to have it, so they use it....

Fuck all aggressive means!!!!

The people of Irak are used to this kind of stuff! They have been in WAR all of there lives! They don't know any better!
If the father of the house dies by a bomb he attached to his body, and killes 1000's of (American) people with it, he will be a Martyr!!! And the rest of them will do the same!!!!
Be warned! We are in deep shit! THEY are not affraid of dying!!!!!! All "Normal educated people are"

To the point...

Any war is wrong! People die! Children die!

Even in this one.....

[Crackedup]

Why didn't Bush Snr and his cronies finish off the job when they had the chance 12, yes 12 years ago? I don't doubt that Saddam is an evil tyrant, who has murdered, tortured and repressed his people before the Gulf War and ever since.

I don't really think the Bush gives a flying shit about the people in Iraq, as is probably the case, to an equal or lesser extent, with other world leaders. Whilst the US has every right to track down the terrorists, I am not convinced of the links to justify attacking Iraq at this time.

The USA is such a powerful nation that it doesn't believe it needs an international mandate to attack Iraq, especially when dealing with an often impotent body like the UN. I am not anti-American. Indeed I think we all owe a lot to many of their contributions to the world we live in. And what happened on 11 September was a terrible thing.

I'm British and IMHO we should have given the weapons inspectors more time to come up with conclusive proof that Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction. Tony Blair has alienated himself too far this time in maintaining ' the special relationship' between the UK & US. I am against our troops taking part in any battles as it adds credibility to Bush's crusade. With the might of the US military he doesn't really need us there, despite our expertise in certain areas.

No, I'm afraid that this IS about oil. George W and his team are one of the most insular administrations in modern history, They don't travel, don't entertain other world leaders and have pulled out of at least 5 international treaties since being in power. They are looking after their own and don't give a toss about anyone else. This is their right but I believe it is fundamentally wrong and shortsighted. This breeds resentment or jealousy or whatever you want to call it.

I do find it sad that so many US citizens, probably not the enlightened ones on this board, know so little about what's going on outside their shores. Perhaps it's part of the whole cultural thing. You know the 'second is the first loser' thing and having a World Series sport in which the world doesn't take part.

You may like to read a very interesting article that is upcoming in 24 March edition of Newsweek:
The Arrogant Empirewhich covers somethings a lot better than I can.

[The Great Dude]

Originally posted by kAb@17 March 2003 - 19:08
i've been convinced for a long time. his speech was good (i think it would've been better if he had been sitting) and saddam needs to leave.

here is a very good analysis of iraq to convince all you peacepeople that war is a must.

Do you even realise how much this war is going to cost? Think about it, the world will change if this damn war starts.

[Rat Faced]

Crackedup..........your link takes me to Microsoft.com

Can you correct that please?

Thanks.....

[Crackedup]

Sorry - correct link inserted into original post.

[evilbagpuss]

If the USA/UK start implementing regime change against other dictatorships who dont have any oil then I will do a complete U-turn. The problem is that the USA is currently supporting dictatorships in South America and in the past the CIA have helped topple democratically elected Gvts, Chile is a good example. Thats why I am so sceptical when Bush and Blair start taking the moral highground about Saddams evil ways. So, in my eyes, the war cannot be about morality.

The 10 year old "evidence" that Colin Powell assured us would be convincing was certainly not. So due to the lack of evidence on links with Al-Queda and ownership of WMD the war cannot be about those issues.

So what is left...?

I want Saddam out of Iraq and I feel that if civilian casualties can be kept to a minimum it may actually be worth it. The real problem is why the UK/USA are going to war. I simply dont trust their sincerity and possibly the most important issue of all is that Mulsims in the Arab world dont trust them either. If Osama wanted to create a Islam vs the Modern Day Crusaders mentality in the Middle-East... well he must be happy now.

The real crux of the matter in the Middle-East is the Israel/Palestine situation. There is some serious hypocrisy going on there. For example a few months ago Israel assasinated one man with a missile attack. It destroyed 4 apartment blocks of innocent people. A few days ago a 4 year old Palestinian girl was killed by Israeli troops. Israel, like Iraq, is also in breach of UN resolutions asking them to leave the occupied territorys. The hypocrisy is that we (UK/USA) sell Israel weapons and never condemn Israeli atrocities.

If the West can begin to deal with the Israel/Palestine situation in an even handed and fair way, i.e being equally harsh with atrocities committed by both sides, then we might be able to make some real progress. Until that happens terrorism will continue to rise. My main concern is that a war with Iraq at this moment in time will destabilise the Middle-East and create yet more terrorists. We need to get the moderate muslims onside, stop giving the Extremists proof that they are right and work together to deal with this issue once and for all.

[ketoprak]

Originally posted by slick nick@18 March 2003 - 19:52
Fot the person asking for links showing he didn't kill his own I'll look to see. I don't dispute the fact he's killed Kurds who are who we're(the U.S) say he did when we talk about what he's done but they aren't his people. That propaganda is always thrown out there as the first argument and it's a bullshit one in my opinion. It being the base argument and being a hollow one makes what comes after it weak also. And a Presidents son who rapes his people? I bet that's more propaganda but I'll look.

Would you say that by killing German Jews, Hitler didn't kill its own people? Iraqi kurds and chiits are minorities in Iraq. For the Kurds, they're exactly in the position of the Jews, before Israel was created: a people without a nation. So you're just saying bullshit. And Hussein also kills sunnit Arabs, when they become too dangerous for him.

There is propaganda in this war: biased agruments, faked evidences. But don't see it evrywhere. There are also facts, that we have to deal with. Our stance against a war shouldn't blind us about the very bad situation in Iraq, it would be very dangerous and criminal.

[slick nick]

Hitler did kill his own people because they were actual citizens of Germany. The Kurds on the other hand i'm not certain that's the case. They are a group who were split between several countries purposely to stop them from being a force again. They want their own country. What's the circumstances this was done over? Was it just for fun? Or was it a military thing? I'm aware women and children were killed and i'm not trying to say it was right but to continue telling us "he gassed his own people" as though he did it to his actual citizens insatead of a nation within a nation with their own agenda is a different thing. This makes them unlike the Jews because they were living in Germany as citizens with rights and participating in society. Does Isreal kill and oppress there own people? Palestinians live in Isreal don't they? But they aren't the Isreali's people are they? End equation America doesn't care what he does to them because they've allowed him to stay in power and if he would've disarmed they way they and continue "killing his own people". To continue claiming this would be like illegal Mexican immigrants revolting in the American South West and them being gassed and people accusing us of gassing our own people. It doesn't hold water. And we have been blind all along to whats been going and there's certainly been no danger to us. Now that it suits an agenda though it's being milked. Killing people who are actually engaged in and planning to seced vs doing it because "he's a mad man" are two different things and continuing to tell the world that is a distortion of what's going on there.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by Crackedup@18 March 2003 - 19:22
Why didn't Bush Snr and his cronies finish off the job when they had the chance 12, yes 12 years ago? I don't doubt that Saddam is an evil tyrant, who has murdered, tortured and repressed his people before the Gulf War and ever since.

I don't really think the Bush gives a flying shit about the people in Iraq, as is probably the case, to an equal or lesser extent, with other world leaders. Whilst the US has every right to track down the terrorists, I am not convinced of the links to justify attacking Iraq at this time.

The USA is such a powerful nation that it doesn't believe it needs an international mandate to attack Iraq, especially when dealing with an often impotent body like the UN. I am not anti-American. Indeed I think we all owe a lot to many of their contributions to the world we live in. And what happened on 11 September was a terrible thing.

I'm British and IMHO we should have given the weapons inspectors more time to come up with conclusive proof that Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction. Tony Blair has alienated himself too far this time in maintaining ' the special relationship' between the UK & US. I am against our troops taking part in any battles as it adds credibility to Bush's crusade. With the might of the US military he doesn't really need us there, despite our expertise in certain areas.

No, I'm afraid that this IS about oil. George W and his team are one of the most insular administrations in modern history, They don't travel, don't entertain other world leaders and have pulled out of at least 5 international treaties since being in power. They are looking after their own and don't give a toss about anyone else. This is their right but I believe it is fundamentally wrong and shortsighted. This breeds resentment or jealousy or whatever you want to call it.

I do find it sad that so many US citizens, probably not the enlightened ones on this board, know so little about what's going on outside their shores. Perhaps it's part of the whole cultural thing. You know the 'second is the first loser' thing and having a World Series sport in which the world doesn't take part.

You may like to read a very interesting article that is upcoming in 24 March edition of Newsweek:
The Arrogant Empirewhich covers somethings a lot better than I can.

Can I ask Americans to read this link posted by Crackedup?


I have tried to say what is wrong with US foreign policy many times, and ended up sounding anti-american (im not, im just bad with words).... the article here is written by an American (and i believe he is a 'conservative' american.

He manages to say it all, in a way that you cant say is 'anti-american' but will explain how the rest of the world feels at the moment.....and why.