Netherlands Hospital Euthanizes Babies

**j2k4** · 12-03-2004, 08:15 PM

Gee whiz-

I'm gone 6 weeks and neither of you has one iota of discernment left.

WHAT I MEANT WAS: (and now I regrettfully must include you, Brother Rat-)

As thinking individuals, we all ought to know (already) how we look at certain actions/events; when it all comes down, there are really only a few permutations of your several standard life-taking acts, and they revolve mainly around the issue of guilt, and, to some extent, circumstances; in other words, it only stands to reason we have done most of the "if___, then___" thinking already.

Unless, of course, you insist on always maintaining an open mind, in which case you might find yourselves bound at some point to re-consider your thoughts as re: Mr. Bush.

**Rat Faced** · 12-03-2004, 08:21 PM

If a Dog is in pain and cannot be cured, then in our humanity we put it to sleep, to prevent suffering.

If someone decides that they do not wish to suffer and leave instrutions to that effect, then i have no problem, i'd probably do it myself.

The problem i have is not with the act, but that they are not deciding for themselves as children..

Im torn between my humanity which hates to see suffering with no hope of relief; and the fact that they are newborn children and medical science makes leaps and bounds in only a few years.

Is 4 years of suffering before a cure worth a further 80 years of life? Or is there no hope of relief... its that simple.

**j2k4** · 12-03-2004, 08:57 PM

I empathize with your dilemma, Rat, but I will not allow potential despair to rule my thoughts.

I'd rather think positively.

I think I just constructed a circumstantial profundity...

**vidcc** · 12-04-2004, 01:48 AM

so are you going to tell us just where you stand...using non encrypted English?

**j2k4** · 12-04-2004, 03:19 PM

I am always going to err on the side of life, vid.

I have extreme difficulty placing such trust in the hands of "well-intentioned" (and fallible or questionably motivated) people.
I have been (somewhat ironically) placed in this position twice in my life; both times in situations of relatives whose closer kin kept the decision at arms length due to their own inability to shoulder a burden they found (rightfully) unbearable.

One was a nephew I had been quite close to; I was approached by a surgeon (at the request of my sister-in-law) who wanted me to authorize pulling the plug.

I argued against this (he had suffered a head injury falling off a bike), as the subject was broached before anyone had even uttered the dreaded words "brain dead".

The subject didn't go too far, as he hemorrhaged and died while we were butting heads.

In the second case, my ex-father-in-law was slowly dying-after a long life of good health, he developed a cancerous tumor on his jaw which necessatated surgery; while in recovery (this was at Methodist Hospital, Rochester Minn., Mayo Clinic) he suffered a massive stroke, then a series of heart events and more strokes.

After 3 weeks of his fighting as best he could, I was approached by the doctors, as my (ex-) wife wasn't up for that particular discussion.

They wanted a decision from me; I asked for leave to consult with the patient, who could communicate by squeezing my hand (they knew this, but it somehow didn't figure into their strategy).

I was able to determine in fairly short order that he was tired of fighting, and after asking him several times to clarify for my assuredness, he was able to satisfy me he had had enough.

I told my wife, she concurred, and then I told the doctors, who did their "thing".

It was one of the saddest moments of my life, as much for the loss of a loved one (my ex-wife was cut from a different bolt of cloth) as finding that the need to clear a hospital bed out-weighed any inclination on the hospital's part to fight for his life.

Hope this helps you understand where I come from, vid.

**vidcc** · 12-04-2004, 09:34 PM

Firstly J2 my sympathies for your losses

could i ask if you consider turning off a life support machine or not reviving someone in arrest euthanasia?

i had better be specific. I am not talking about not reviving someone that has a chance of living a life, I am specifically talking about people that for want of a better description...are just not going to make it even if they get the heart going this time.

**j2k4** · 12-05-2004, 01:39 AM

With the caveat that people ought to address such things ahead of time (along with wills, organ harvest, etc.) so as to relieve others of that burden to the greatest extent possible, I must say that I still believe in miraculous recoveries, because I've seen them, too; I can square neither my beliefs nor my thought processes to euthanasia.

Who is to pronounce as to viability, ultimately?

BTW-

Comatose patients are a continual point of contention; if their maintenance was a bit more costly (and even if not) I would think those who prefer euthanasia would begin there.