The Demands

[RioDeLeo]

That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that, the Muslims l know have no desire to convert anyone, just to be allowed to practise their religion in peace, they do, however, feel the West is biased against them, and pretty much echo what is written in that piece regarding the hypocrisy of Western countries.

[JPaul]

That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that, the Muslims l know have no desire to convert anyone, just to be allowed to practise their religion in peace, they do, however, feel the West is biased against them, and pretty much echo what is written in that piece regarding the hypocrisy of Western countries.

Presumably it's not the Muslims you know who are carrying out the terrorist attacks. So they aren't really the problem. Nor are the majority of Muslims and Muslim clerics (certainly in the UK) who are saying that the Quran gives no such mandate and who say that these actions are evil and sins against Allah.

I don't really see how you can say "That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that ...". This was written after the attacks on the World Trade Centre. There have been subsequent attacks, showing that this is ongoing. I have seen nothing to retract the jihad element and presume it is still there. The demand that anything non-Muslim is stopped therefore stands. You can't just ignore the part which cleraly demonstrates the non-tolerance of the author and hope people just read the parts which you find palatable.

The letter makes it clear that this is both a political and a religious thing. The demands include that the world does nothing which the author finds to be against his religious beliefs. So even if one were to agree with some of the political justifications for these killings I can't see how anyone can support such a campaign. Unless they themselves were a Muslim fundamentalist who agreed that everything else should be destoyed.

[RioDeLeo]

I don't really see how you can say "That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that ...".

l was actually replying to Busyman with that remark; what l meant was that most Muslims have no desire to convert anyone, but they do believe they are being unfairly treated. l'm not denying that may be an aim of a very small minority of people, just as some Christian evangelists have the same ideals.

l personally have doubts that was written by bin Laden, and we shouldn't just presume it was without proof.

[JPaul]

Busyman said "Riiight, except the basic open declaration of war on all things not Muslim."

You replied "That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that ..."

I commented "I have seen nothing to retract the jihad element and presume it is still there."

I agree with "and we shouldn't just presume it was without proof."

I however believe that, even if it were not written by him it reflects his views and the ends which he seeks. It certainly seems commensurate with other things he has said and done.

[RioDeLeo]

A lot of what is written here is spot on.

Riiight, except the basic open declaration of war on all things not Muslim.

That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that, the Muslims l know have no desire to convert anyone ..

I however believe that, even if it were not written by him it reflects his views and the ends which he seeks. It certainly seems commensurate with other things he has said and done.

l have no argument with him holding those views, l said only that l don't believe it is a view widely held by Muslims.

[JPaul]

Which is why I question whether he speaks for, or acts for the majority of Muslims.

I agree with you that he does not.

However like I said they are not the problem.

[Busyman]

That's right, but l don't think we should read too much into that, the Muslims l know have no desire to convert anyone, just to be allowed to practise their religion in peace, they do, however, feel the West is biased against them, and pretty much echo what is written in that piece regarding the hypocrisy of Western countries.

Things of note....

1. I wasn't talking about all Muslims quite obviously. I'm talking about Mr. InsaneLaden, so yes I read a whole lot into that seeing as though he is intent on killing folks that either walk on certain land or have citizenship on same land.

2. If there is bias against Muslims, he is mainly to blame. 9/11 wasn't the first terrorist bombing by a so-called Muslim but it was the worst in scale. He did said bombings in the name if Islam so he's is to blame for any ill conceived thoughts of his religion because of his actons.
He and others of his ilk (and his sympathizers) need to use logic or STFU.

You can't kill anyfuckingbody (including other Muslims that happen to be visiting) in the name of Islam then claim persecution when someone says fuck you Muslimbastard.

Now more than ever the average joe on the street associates Islam with terrorism.

3. Any Muslim that sympathizes with them is a fuckhead too.

If a black fella ran around killing white folk for slavery reparations for all black folk, I ain't backinghimunderstandwherehe'scomingfrom or nothing of the sort 'cause he's a nutjob.
----

Let's be clear about something...this whole thing started over a land dispute. Can anyone tell me when it turned into "we just wanna fuck over Muslims"?

I couldn't recall a whole lot of discrimination against Muslims.

[RioDeLeo]

I couldn't recall a whole lot of discrimination against Muslims.

Really? Not even from their point of view?

l'm not up on the question of discrimination against Muslims in western countries, the US for instance, but l found the following discussion interesting. It's a question and answer session with Professor Jocelyne Cesari.

Spoiler: Show

Jocelyne Cesari is Doctor in Political Science, Associate Professor at La Sorbonne-Paris and currently Research Associate at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and Visiting Professor at Harvard University.

Research topics:
Muslim minorities in Europe and America
Islam, Ethnicity and Politics
North African Political and Cultural Life
Cultural dimension of Globalization

Questions and Answers

[Busyman]

I couldn't recall a whole lot of discrimination against Muslims.

Really? Not even from their point of view?

Maybe you should read again.

Muslims weren't that much a topic of discussion before 9/11. Don't get me wrong there was Islamic terrorism before but 9/11 heightened discrimination.

That much is CaptianObvoius.

I said read again because I know there's much more discrimination now.

[Rat Faced]

You know, when people start to negotiate, they both start off with demands that they know they cannot get.

This means that they negotiate to a compromise that is satisfactory to all parties.

If you go into negotiations demanding just what you want, then have to make consesions, you lose out.

If BL wants the west out of the Middle East, he cannot just demand this... he'd have to demand more, just to arrive "In the middle" at what he actually wants.




Damn, that lot doesnt read well.... but y'all know what i mean



Thats assuming that the quoted "demands" actually came from him in the 1st place.