World trade center video

[GepperRankins]

... not one has any acknowledged experience of high speed impacts. .

Unloke you, of course, who no doubt studied this at uni?

This conspiracy nonsense is a joke, a 757 flew into the Pentagon -- full stop. People saw it, they found the plane, and the black box, and the passengers and crew.

This is schoolboy stuff.

people also saw cruise missiles, hercules militery planes, light aircraft, and unmanned drones

[lynx]

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"


I guess we all think differently on this. To me a structural engineer can definitely have areas of expertise.

And on the WTC7 building.........I decided against the conspiracy theories when I realized this Larry Silverstein has never owned this building. A 99 year lease from the New York Port Authority by Silverstein Properties, Inc. doesn't constitute ownership to me. And that being the case......what right would he have to even think of demolishing?

As far as his remark about 'pulling and standing back and watching the building demolish?' Firefighters always talk about pulling. In their terms, it means not fighting the fire.....pulling away from.........letting it go...letting the fire do the pulling down.

I guess we all have to go with our own common sense....what makes sense to us.

"I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box."

First of all, there are 2 "black boxes", the Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder, and he didn't find either of them, they were recovered by members of the Fairfax county search and rescue team. Secondly, how did he hold the tail section in his hand? It weighs several tonnes.

Now for his second (or is it his third) lie.
He claimed he had he arrived around noon. But in actual fact his arrival was documented by PBS news, and he didn't arrive until much later in the afternoon. He had been requested to go to the Pentagon by Walker Evey, the Pentagon renovation project manager. However, Evey himself didn't hear about the crash until shortly before noon. After that, Kilsheimer had to drive as close as he could to the Pentagon, then make a two hour walk to get to the crash site.

There are other anomolies in his statements, but I think I've discredited him enough for one post.

You'll notice I'm still not claiming that it wasn't a 757, but I'm astonished at how many "experts" are wheeled out to contradict these theories, yet they are so easily caught out in their lies and half-truths.

[lynx]

... not one has any acknowledged experience of high speed impacts. .

Unloke you, of course, who no doubt studied this at uni?

This conspiracy nonsense is a joke, a 757 flew into the Pentagon -- full stop. People saw it, they found the plane, and the black box, and the passengers and crew.

This is schoolboy stuff.

Evading the point again, I see.

I'm not the one making claims about what happened there.
They are the ones apparently making the claims, but they have no expertise in the field.

But it turns out they didn't actually need any expertise, since the study they were carrying out was not intended to show directly what happened in the crash. What they were trying to do was show that it was possible to produce an animated simulation of what they believed happened. To this end they even got an animated model of a 757 from a games company, FFS.

I'm pretty sure your "abovetopsecret" site didn't bother to check what they were referring to, and neither did you. Next time, when you've googled something to "prove" your case, I suggest you find out what your source is actually talking about.

[Helghast004]

Sorry guys missunderstood the quote that was suppose to be here...

[whypikonme]

I'm pretty sure your "abovetopsecret" site didn't bother to check what they were referring to, and neither did you. Next time, when you've googled something to "prove" your case, I suggest you find out what your source is actually talking about.

Misrepresenting people again l see. You seem to make quite a habit of it ... l posted that site for the photos of bits of the plane, not the opinions of the site, even if they do make a lot more sense than you do.

[GepperRankins]

this is gonna sound wacky, but is it not possible that the heavy bits within the pentagon were already there, and the shreds of sheet steel outside could be planted or even projected from within the building?


straight away many people say they saw a small aircraft, cruise missile or unmanned drone. only later after the official story was released did the eye-witnesses say it was a 747.

i remember seeing something on tv about an experiment at loch ness. a tour guide was at lochside giving a talk about the loch ness monster. then a guy hidden in a bush pulled on a rope that lifted a plane old piece of 2 by 4 out of the water for a few seconds then dropped it back in. the witnesses were then asked to draw what they saw. all of them drew nessies head, some in detail, some just a blob(small head) on a stick(neck), none looked like a piece of 2 by 4.

[whypikonme]

straight away many people say they saw a small aircraft, cruise missile or unmanned drone. only later after the official story was released did the eye-witnesses say it was a 747.

So where are these people? And where is the 757? While you're at it, where are all the people who supposedly died inside the Pentagon, were they all made up too?

[GepperRankins]

i'm sorry i can't remember anyone disputing that anyone died. luckily the part that was hit was almost empty though. for all we know the plane could be back up in the air, along with the hijackers. i don't know where the people are, it was just the people the media reached first.


so far everose is the only person who's managed to make me cast doubt on the conspiracy theories

[whypikonme]

. for all we know the plane could be back up in the air,

It'd be running short on fuel about now, don't you think?

[lynx]

I'm pretty sure your "abovetopsecret" site didn't bother to check what they were referring to, and neither did you. Next time, when you've googled something to "prove" your case, I suggest you find out what your source is actually talking about.

Misrepresenting people again l see. You seem to make quite a habit of it ... l posted that site for the photos of bits of the plane, not the opinions of the site, even if they do make a lot more sense than you do.

Ah, I see. You just wanted to use the blurred photo's, the majority of which aren't actually clear enough to show anything useful.

How stupid of me, I should have realised you were disassociating yourself from any written content on the site you linked to. Would I be right in assuming that you think their comments about the photographs are suspect?

Let's just examine the photographic "evidence".

Two small pieces, a smashed wheel and a nose strut are probably just what they say they are. Except that there's no reference in the shot to show where these photos were taken. Note the comment about "note how charred the area around it is", they are trying to convince us it was taken at the Pentagon. I would have taken it on face value without that comment.

The next photo claims another rim and a piece of aircraft bulkhead. In fact all that can truthfully be said is that there's something round and what could just as easily be part of an office ceiling or partition. But they placed the idea that a wheel rim was found and this one looks vaguely similar so why not include it. No need for objectivity.

Next there are the pieces with "Boeing green primer". So it's a good job we've established that nothing else in the world can be painted green. Hang on though, what happened to the soot and charring all round the impact hole? Ah well, there's a bit at the top of the picture, I suppose they think that will do.

Now there's a very clear shot of an amorphous mass. Oops, sorry, that should properly be described as "a tire with the same pattern as ones used on a 757".

Now the picture of the engine part. Ok, so maybe it's not part of a AE 3007H. There are plenty of others. They suggest it is a Honeywell APU. So why link to a picture that they've already said it can't be. Why not link to a picture of a Honeywell APU? And it is interesting that after almost 4 years that piece of debris has still not been officially identified. If it was so obviously part of a Honeywell APU that should be easy enough.

More engine parts, with a reference shot of an RB211 engine. Quite frankly the debris is so badly mangled and the photos so poor that I doubt whether an expert on Rolls Royce engines could identify that. Its just a shame they didn't have one to prove me wrong. Oh, wait, they did. And he didn't.

Next: "Evidence of the right engine impact on the side of the building is evident on the large pillar being sprayed with fire retardant." I think what they mean is that something damaged the wall, it is impossible to say what caused it.

Now comes evidence that some collateral damage was done. Well whoop-di-doo. Did anyone suggest that if it was something else than there would be no collateral damage?

The debris field. A couple of pictures of pieces so small they could have come from anything.

Now six photos of just about the only part which might be identifiable as part of an aircraft skin. Six photos. Presumably just in case we missed five of them. They really were getting desperate.

A photo of damage "obviously" made by the right engine. Obviously.

Then damage to a generator also made by that engine. Mind you, that engine certainly gets about a bit. If you look at the path supposedly taken by the generator that engine must have taken a quick trip out to the wingtip in order for it to have made the initial impact. It then dragged the generator back with it as it resumed it's normal position (and all this in about a microsecond) before finally knocking it out of the way.

Finally, the gate camera. Which curiously doen't have a picture of an aircraft. Hey, don't worry, those nice people from abovetopsecret can get a completely different shot, then paint one in for you so that it fits perfectly. One small problem though. Look where the tail fin is on the painted image. Then look at the actual shot. The whole of the area at that height is clear - there is no tail fin.

Now let's review their "review the facts"
# Size of 757 matches the initial size of hole in the building - somewhere between 13 and 16 feet (757 is 13 feet wide/high)
The initial hole was about 75 feet.
# Rims found in building match those of a 757
They match any commercial airplane wheel
# Small turbine engine outside is an APU
That has never been established
# Same engine has been clearly stated to not match a Global Hawk engine
There are dozens of other engines that have not been ruled out
# Blue seats from 757 laying on ground in photos
Blue upholstery laying on ground in photos
# Part of "American" fuselage logo visible in more than 1 photo
SAME part of some fuselage logo in more than 1 photo
# Engine parts photographed inside match a Rolls-Royce RB211
That was not established by Rolls-Royce's own expert
# Structural components photographed in wreckage match Boeing paint primer schemes
Green and yellow paint found
# Large deisel generator in front of building hit by a large heavy object
Large deisel generator was not in the flight path
# Large deisel engine outside is spun towards the building - could not be result of bomb blast or missile explosion
Large deisel generator was not in the flight path
# Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner
Multiple eye witnesses say they saw a missile/small plane
# Multiple eye witnesses say they saw an airliner hit the Pentagon
Multiple eye witnesses say they saw a missile/small plane hit the Pentagon
# 60+ bodies, matching the passenger list and flight crew roster identified and returned to families from Pentagon wreckage
This is the best of the lot. The fire burned for about 60 hours. For the first 3 and a half hours it was so intense that fire crews could not get close enough to get water on it. Yet they expect us to believe that they found and identified over 60 bodies. But at the same time other sites tell us that the reason so little of the plane was found is because it burnt up in the intense heat. We should be grateful that the human body is so much more resiliant than an airframe.