New Evolution spat in U.S. schools goes to court

[ilw]

In science classes we teach our kids the currently accepted scientific paradigm, we don't teach them all the random hypotheses that exist because that would literally take forever. And a scientific paradigm isn't something you challenge in court, if the evidence is compelling then all that is required is patience, science will eventually come round.

Btw they reckon they have seen places where stars are being born http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3227221.stm but from the little i know, the birth of a star isn't really something you're going to easily see. Its not like a supernova which is much more obvious (ie it goes bang and gets stupidly bright)

[3RA1N1AC]

Sorry, though, as shown my my absence, I don't really have the time, or the capacity to spell out the intelligent design theory out, but you can just as easily google it. (make sure you pick a PRO intellegent design theorist to spell out the theory...)

but while your at it; try to find some evidence for cosmic, stellar, and organic evolution.

I think with an open mind you might find that major parts of evolution, is in fact religion.

okay, here's william a. dembski. he's considered an authority on the topic, right? writing in a letter on february 1st, 2005:

ID is part of God's general revelation. Consequently, it can be understood apart from the Bible. That's why, for instance, the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies invited me to lecture on intelligent design and warmly embraced my message (this happened in October 2003). Just about anyone who is not wedded to a pure materialism agrees that some sort of design or purpose underlies nature. Intelligent design not only gives a voice to these people, but also gives them the tools to dismantle materialism.

Dismantling materialism is a good thing. Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to Christ. Indeed, once materialism is no longer an option, Christianity again becomes an option. True, there are then also other options. But Christianity is more than able to hold its own once it is seen as a live option. The problem with materialism is that it rules out Christianity so completely that it is not even a live option. Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.

"dismantling materialism is a good thing." what does dembski mean by that? of course he doesn't mean it in the same sense that madonna does when she sings "i'm a material girl." he means materialism in the sense that "the only thing that can be known to have existed or occurred is physical"... and a sort-of relative of that, empiricism, is the philosophical principle from which modern science derives. not coincidentally, science has made its quickest progress and greatest achievements through empirical methods... they may not be 100% foolproof, but they've been pretty effective to say the least. so, dembski wants to throw away modern science's reliance on physical evidence that can be sensed (and theories that can be disproven, if necessary), and go with pure deductive reasoning instead because it opens the door for things like gods, aliens, etc to be considered serious science despite the fact that we cannot test the existence of gods or aliens. he is really asking for the scientific method to be turned upside down.

the gist of intelligent design:
*many living organisms are complex
*certain levels of complexity cannot happen by accident or by evolution, which indicates that the too-complex-for-evolution feature is the product of an intelligent designer
*therefore complex organisms are the product of an intelligent designer

much of that is presumption about what can and cannot occur through causes other than mental/spiritual "design." how does one determine what level of complexity requires the manipulation of this unidentified designer? numerology? where's the evidence, organized research, or the chance to disprove the hypothesis? it's a whole lot of jumping through logical hoops in order to arrive at the answer that they've already chosen. which is fine for philosophers, theologians, sherlock holmes, etc. pure deductive reasoning can be a worthwhile mental exercise, and it makes for great detective stories, but without a test it basically amounts to zilch in the laboratory.

as for evolution, off the top off my head, okay, organic evolution. the evolution of organisms. "micro-evolution" of subspecies is observable. you can observe a pack of domestic dogs evolve into a pack of wild dogs, coyotes into wolves, farm pigs into wild boars, etc. you can observe the development of subspecies of bacteria in a petrie dish. macro-evolution, the evolution of a totally new species, would happen way too slowly to observe in a human lifetime.

yet you CAN observe a type of evolution, it's just not the evolution of species. but at least it shows that evolution of distinct physical characteristics within a species due to factors like climate & such is not only possible but real and observable, and evolution of new species is very highly probable. the theory of species evolution is supported by things like: the existence of this or that type of animal fossil in certain levels of the earth crust indicates who precedes who. unless tyrannosaurus rex for example was just really good at digging with those tiny arms and then covering himself up with layer after layer of dirt & rock, it's prolly safe to say he was not preceded by the kangaroo. and there are quite obvious trends as far as "what are the common 'big animals' in this period, the next period, and so forth?" the earth's crust is a mural of new animals rising up to overtake & replace old animals.

[clocker]

Notice how this is written:

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A new battle over teaching about man's origins in U.S. schools goes to court for the first time next week, pitting Christian (VERY BAD!!!) conservatives (INCREDIBLY BAD AND EVIL!!!) against educators (GOOD, BENEFICIENT AND AGENDA-FREE!!!) and scientists (GOOD; THE SMARTEST PEOPLE ON THE ENTIRE PLANET, LOOKING OUT FOR YOU!!!) in a trial viewed as the biggest test of the issue since the late 1980s.

Reuters...you can always count on them.

Turnabout is fair play...

ID is part of God's general revelationWhich any right thinking person accepts. Consequently, it can be understood apart from the BibleAlthough the Bible should be enough.... That's why, for instance, the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies invited me to lecture on intelligent design and warmly embraced my message (this happened in October 2003). Just about anyone who is not wedded to a pure materialism agrees that some sort of design or purpose underlies natureAt least "anyone" whose opinion I would care to cite. Intelligent design not only gives a voice to these people, but also gives them the tools to dismantle materialismAnd it's so easy! No proof required!.

Dismantling materialism is a good thingJust take MY word for it. Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to ChristWhich is the whole point...DUH!.

Excellent!
From this point forward, my "perception" of Mr. Demski's writing shall be substituted for what was actually written and accepted as correct.

[j2k4]

Turnabout is fair play...

ID is part of God's general revelationWhich any right thinking person accepts. Consequently, it can be understood apart from the BibleAlthough the Bible should be enough.... That's why, for instance, the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies invited me to lecture on intelligent design and warmly embraced my message (this happened in October 2003). Just about anyone who is not wedded to a pure materialism agrees that some sort of design or purpose underlies natureAt least "anyone" whose opinion I would care to cite. Intelligent design not only gives a voice to these people, but also gives them the tools to dismantle materialismAnd it's so easy! No proof required!.

Dismantling materialism is a good thingJust take MY word for it. Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to ChristWhich is the whole point...DUH!.

Excellent!
From this point forward, my "perception" of Mr. Demski's writing shall be substituted for what was actually written and accepted as correct.

Ah, but Mr. Demski is an advocate; the former is presented as Journalism.

An important difference, I'm sure you can agree.

So-

It is turnabout, yes indeed.

Fairplay?

Uh-uh.

My apple and your orange.

Thank you for furnishing such a splendid example of tactical oversight-liberal specie.

[Busyman]

lets see...2 off of the top of my head.

1. Erosion patterns currently unexplainable to natural rivers will be observable.

2. Rapid devolution can be observed. (earth spin slowing, magnetic strength weakening, many star supernovas and no observed star births.)

Sorry, though, as shown my my absence, I don't really have the time, or the capacity to spell out the intelligent design theory out, but you can just as easily google it. (make sure you pick a PRO intellegent design theorist to spell out the theory...)

but while your at it; try to find some evidence for cosmic, stellar, and organic evolution.

I think with an open mind you might find that major parts of evolution, is in fact religion.

Hmmm...some people are backward indeed....

I happen to believe in intelligent design.....even apart from religion. However, how does number 1 and 2 make for scientific study...in relation to intelligent design?

Someone already pointed out that your answers to 1 and 2 would be simply be....'oh yeah intelligent design'.

That's not science worthy, manny.

You can't have a science class and say, "Observe this devolution. See God did it" and have a science class.

This is why folks pushing this are backwards. You are so pressed to force religion in schools (amazing too it's only Christianity) that you have done it illogically (from a scientific standpoint).

Even looking at some of this rhetoric from intelligent design pushers, it's just chock full of simple religious teaching and only a passing reference to science.

To sum it up, intelligent design pushers, or simply the parents nodding their heads in agreement for it to be in schools, are fucking stupid and don't know the difference between philosophy and science.

[crucial62]

what has always made me wonder is where the heck is the intellegent designer supposed to have sprung up from. I mean besides somebodys vivid imagination. The intellegent design school of eternity?

[GepperRankins]

Notice how this is written:

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A new battle over teaching about man's origins in U.S. schools goes to court for the first time next week, pitting Christian (VERY BAD!!!) conservatives (INCREDIBLY BAD AND EVIL!!!) against educators (GOOD, BENEFICIENT AND AGENDA-FREE!!!) and scientists (GOOD; THE SMARTEST PEOPLE ON THE ENTIRE PLANET, LOOKING OUT FOR YOU!!!) in a trial viewed as the biggest test of the issue since the late 1980s.

Reuters...you can always count on them.

maybe opposing parties should be refered to as just reds and blues in future then or would that insinuate one party were evil comunists.

go home. J2. you n00b




i was bought up in roman catholic schools and had 3-4 hours a week RE (and church in primary school). i turned out to be a good god-fearing athiest. maybe that was because i had science lessons that weren't corrupted by bullshit though so i could work out the distinction my self.

[Busyman]

what has always made me wonder is where the heck is the intellegent designer supposed to have sprung up from. I mean besides somebodys vivid imagination. The intellegent design school of eternity?

Whether an intelligent design exists or not is moot.

ID shouldn't be in science class.

[clocker]

Notice how this is written:

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A new battle over teaching about man's origins in U.S. schools goes to court for the first time next week, pitting Christian (VERY BAD!!!) conservatives (INCREDIBLY BAD AND EVIL!!!) against educators (GOOD, BENEFICIENT AND AGENDA-FREE!!!) and scientists (GOOD; THE SMARTEST PEOPLE ON THE ENTIRE PLANET, LOOKING OUT FOR YOU!!!) in a trial viewed as the biggest test of the issue since the late 1980s.

Reuters...you can always count on them.

So let me make sure I have this right..."Christian conservatives", "educators" and "scientists" are all codewords we've been indoctrinated with by Reuters?

K then.
Removing the "bias" you imply leaves us with....
"Some people are suing some other people over some stuff. Could be important."

Oh yeah, much better.
No information, but no bias either.

Fifty-five percent of Americans believe God created humans in their present form, the poll found.

That same 55% believe that NASCAR racers are just like their Fords/Chevys and that Jerry Springer's guests are real human beings.
We base science on public opinion polls now?*

Earlier this month a top Roman Catholic cardinal critical of evolution branded scientific opponents of intelligent design intolerant and said there need not be a conflict between Darwin's and Christian views of life's origins.

As long as you ignore Darwin that is.

*All bias, emotional connotations, and implications supplied by me...Reuters had no input here....

[Barbarossa]

lets see...2 off of the top of my head.

1. Erosion patterns currently unexplainable to natural rivers will be observable.

2. Rapid devolution can be observed. (earth spin slowing, magnetic strength weakening, many star supernovas and no observed star births.)

Sorry, though, as shown my my absence, I don't really have the time, or the capacity to spell out the intelligent design theory out, but you can just as easily google it. (make sure you pick a PRO intellegent design theorist to spell out the theory...)

but while your at it; try to find some evidence for cosmic, stellar, and organic evolution.

I think with an open mind you might find that major parts of evolution, is in fact religion.

1. So are there any? What does this mean?
2. What's your point?

As the conservative movement in the US grows, It seems to be only a matter of time before the arguement is authenticated. Evolutionists can only hold out for so long; they are losing time to find that damning evidence in time for their presentation...

I guess they'll show us their evidence when the other lot shows them theirs...

what has always made me wonder is where the heck is the intellegent designer supposed to have sprung up from. I mean besides somebodys vivid imagination. The intellegent design school of eternity?

Hi! Good question, which seems to get glossed over all too readily...


Oh by the way, here is a picture of the universe...



Intelligently Designed???? Rubbish! A 3-year-old could do better.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050925.html

Read the blurb. The universe will continue to expand forever.

What sort of a design is that? Rubbish!

In the projected full timeline of the universe, the period which contains stars and galaxies is such an infinitesimally small time compared to the whole lifetime of the universe.... Stars and galaxies will be seen as a short-term afterglow of the Big Bang, the universe for most of it's lifespan will be cold, dark, and empty.

Designed that way? Get outta here!!!!