Questions for Kermit ...

[manker]

So we can discount dirt from being this infinitely-complex entity that you think created the creator that made the universe.

Excellent

as you can discount the Big Bang doing the same.

Yeah, I certainly can discount the big bang from being this infinitely-complex entity that you think created the creator that made the universe.

You're posting total crap now, I shouldn't be surprised - you usually do when you've no idea what to write in reply.

[Busyman™]

Too me it really isn't. Past believing there is an ultimate creator and I can't go past that.

However, believing the Big Bang just happened with no conscious effort behind it is ludicrous.

Ludicrous is thinking up something more complex to explain an event which you consider too complicated to have just happened - and then calling it logical.

I consider logical has an end to it.

You consider it logical that the universe just happened. There is no further effort in thought on the matter.

I think something more complex (God) created something less complex (the universe).

Where God comes from....who made God....and so forth, I can only guess that God always was.

This could be the 50th universe created for all I know. It could be that one dies and then another is created. Whatever.

i just believe a sentient being started it versus a group of molecules or whatever went a blewthefuckup on it's very own.

Simply put

I believe all rules are made by intelligence.

[bigboab]

I think I must be thick. No arguments there. I just cannot comprehend the universe and beyond. It cannot have any end, there must be something beyond the end. It cannot be a circle. There must be something outside of the circle. I wish someone could explain it to me in a logical way, without bringing in a 'non provable' existence of a super being.

Incidentally I just received this link in an E-MAIL. Weird or what?

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/singingman7/GVM.htm

[manker]

Ludicrous is thinking up something more complex to explain an event which you consider too complicated to have just happened - and then calling it logical.

I consider logical has an end to it.

You consider it logical that the universe just happened. There is no further effort in thought on the matter.

I think something more complex (God) created something less complex (the universe).

Where God comes from....who made God....and so forth, I can only guess that God always was.

This could be the 50th universe created for all I know. It could be that one dies and then another is created. Whatever.

i just believe a sentient being started it versus a group of molecules or whatever went a blewthefuckup on it's very own.

Simply put

I believe all rules are made my intelligence.

I don't consider it logical that the universe just happened. I believe there is far more to the big bang theory than we know. No-one has a perfect explanation but some theories are more credible than others.

What I won't do, however, is create something in my mind more complicated than the universe itself and consider that that thing 'just happened' and then made the universe.

Also, logic doesn't have to have an end. A logical way to work out the area of a circle is to use pi, you'll never be able to work out the exact area because of the nature of pi itself - but using pi is the most logical way to approximate it.

A logical process has to have reasoned steps and in this particular example that you've given, your steps are far more illogical than mine because you've tried to complicate it by dreaming up an entity more complex than the most complicated thing known to man!

[Mr JP Fugley]

Too me it really isn't. Past believing there is an ultimate creator and I can't go past that.

However, believing the Big Bang just happened with no conscious effort behind it is ludicrous.

Ludicrous is thinking up something more complex to explain an event which you consider too complicated to have just happened - and then calling it logical.

That's why it's easy for people who believe that God always was and always will be. That's really a dead simple explanation of the stuff of creation.

And also, if you believe, like me that God does no exist within the same spacetime as we do then to try to explain Him with reference to it is pointless.

I know that sounds trite, but hey, faith is the bee's knees.

[vidcc]

I always thought this quote would make sense one day

"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

I think this clears it up

[bigboab]

I always thought this quote would make sense one day

"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

I think this clears it up

Just what I have requested.

[Busyman™]

I consider logical has an end to it.

You consider it logical that the universe just happened. There is no further effort in thought on the matter.

I think something more complex (God) created something less complex (the universe).

Where God comes from....who made God....and so forth, I can only guess that God always was.

This could be the 50th universe created for all I know. It could be that one dies and then another is created. Whatever.

i just believe a sentient being started it versus a group of molecules or whatever went a blewthefuckup on it's very own.

Simply put

I believe all rules are made my intelligence.

I don't consider it logical that the universe just happened. I believe there is far more to the big bang theory than we know. No-one has a perfect explanation but some theories are more credible than others.

What I won't do, however, is create something in my mind more complicated than the universe itself and consider that that thing 'just happened' and then made the universe.

Also, logic doesn't have to have an end. A logical way to work out the area of a circle is to use pi, you'll never be able to work out the exact area because of the nature of pi itself - but using pi is the most logical way to approximate it.

A logical process has to have reasoned steps and in this particular example that you've given, your steps are far more illogical than mine because you've tried to complicate it by dreaming up an entity more complex than the most complicated thing known to man!

It's not a dream up. It's one versus the other.

Believing all rules were made up by something not sentient is illogical to me.

In this case logic has an end for me. I can't fathom what governs this sentient being, how it was created, what it is made of, where it is located, how old is it.....

There are too many variables. When I was younger, it crossed my mind that God may be everything, literally.

[Snee]

Rant-time, methinks...

Some of this I've written about before, but it's about probabilities, and people seem to forget that sort of thing:

If I could PROVE there was no God, I would, but just as JP can't prove there is, I can't prove there isn't. I also believe both to be unproveable. So as long as I can't prove the non-existance of a god, I cannot call myself an atheist, because an atheists position is absolute.

yes, it's a belief. i believe there's no god the same way i believe i won't win the lottery every week for the rest of my life. not impossible, but i'm still fairly sure.

would you really entertain the idea that you could win the lottery every week?

Interesting analogy, if a tad one-dimensional.

The odds for winning the big on a nation-wide lottery of the proportions I assume you are talking about once are pretty damned slim, and to win the lottery every week makes them drastically worse, but as you say, it never becomes impossible. It's only impossible for you to have one it in the past, as time only moves in one direction for us, so to speak.

The chance may be slim as fuck, but it's still there, but you know that.

However, the fact is that you also know of the circumstances surrounding said lottery: We are talking about a finite period of time, and a fairly well-defined set of odds. It's even possible to almost calculate the exact odds if you know how big each printed batch of lottery tickets is, and the frequency with which they are printed and your projected lifespan (assuming that would be correct).

So it's quantifiable.

And someone is always winning, anyways.


Now try calculating the odds for an entity more complex than our universe, coming into existence some time in...time.

Frankly, it's not doable.

Here's the thing, y'see:

The universe is, according to most contemporary scientists, rly rly big.
As far as we are concerned, it might well be close enough to be infinite in size.

And that's just what we call the universe.

Moving on...

-

Btw, the word "universe" means "everything, everywhere" so by very definition, your 'creator' is encompassed by it.

Yeah, and "Atom" means "Indivisible" or something to that effect, it doesn't mean one is. -

A couple of years back some scientists came to the conclusion that what we think of as space, I suppose what some of us would call the universe, rests inside another space.

A universe with a universe in it, kinda'

They even figured they had proof, cos they could explain some stuff that previously hadn't made much sense by adding other universes into what they knew about how the laws of physics work.

Gravity, for instance, is comparatively weak here, and they really didn't understand why that was until they invented another universe our universe leeched that from And, if they took this kind of thing into account, they could make sense of a lot of thing that previously hadn't (the math is decent, from what I hear, tho' theories like this are constantly evolving, and I really don't know what's become of it today).

It was also believed possible (past tense, cos I dunno the state of things today. I heard about it in 2003 I think.) that m-space, or that macroverse, or whatever you'd like to call it, contained lots of other universes. Maybe something of the magnitude of one for every possibility one could think of. Another you, perhaps, Dave, winning the lottery every week.

Maybe every possible state you could be in is real somewhere, sort of a phase space become reality.

Lots of them would have different laws of physics and so on too, of course.

So there, now I've got nigh on infinite space, inside something even "larger" (dimensions are funny things, rly). And then there's time, which some people (I think Einstein was one of them) described as being a flow of energy.

It might be circular in some places, or maybe some places don't restrict you to one direction, or...time might not even be of consequence, or infinite.


And then there's another theory about this entire universe vibrating. As time goes forward (just to muck things up even more) our laws of physics slowly change. Lightspeed, for instance might not be a constant if you take time into account.

And then there's something Hawking was on about, about this being a holographic universe.

Reality would be a kind of projection of something else, where all the real information was constant, or sth.
(Information (here mainly referring to the structure of elementary particles) can never be lost, but it would be if what we see is what there is, 'cos when stuff gets sucked into black holes the information about its structure would be stored on the surface, only the surface of a black hole is finite, so there's no room for an infinite amount of information, and therefore real information is stored elsewhere

So now I'll never run out of time (maybe there's no end to it, or maybe I can recycle it), or space, and I'm not even sure if I'm real. And pretty much everyone (scientists, that is) seems to agree that there are at least eleven dimensions to reality.

How could I possible assume that nothing complex enough to be called a God couldn't exist somewhere in infinity?

...On the one hand, I've never seen any proof of the existence of God (I've heard of plenty of "witnesses" , tho', but that's another matter entirely). On the other, it seems impossible to discount the existence of one, seeing as the possibilities for what could exist seem near infinite.

Not saying a God would have to be anything we'd recognize as one (a big beard in the sky type of deal), but something way more powerful than us and terribly complex (and we don't need to limit ourselves to something naturally occurring either, it might be something manufactured) could certainly exist.

I dunno about you all, but I don't assume that we as a race are the pinnacle of evolution Speaking of probabilities, see, it's probably more likely that we are somewhere near the middle of what is possible (always assume you are average, cos most things are), and since we've got virii on one side of the spectrum, one can only wonder what lies at the other.

And we're nowhere near the end of the universe, from what I know, so wouldn't things keep evolving here, on top of everything else?

[Ava Estelle]

It's particularly funny when we're ganging up on you in relation to a subject which The and I fundamentally disagree on.

And you are ... ?