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Thread: Can someone explain how 9/11 deniers damage america?

  1. #11
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    It doesn't damage America. The suggestion is purely political spin to try to silence open debate
    Quite true.

    Why should we shrink from open debate, no matter how unrelentingly silly, misleading and stupid it might be.

    Spin/context must be stamped out at all costs.

    I hereby announce my entrepeneurial entry into spin management; I am now offering Logic Credits as an aid to those suffering any and all argumentive impairments.
    It doesn't matter if the talk is silly or misleading one bit. The point is that to suggest that such opinions damage america is nothing more than an effort to silence instead of actually refuting the statements.

    It doesn't just happen with conspiracy theories, look at the rhetoric over the Iraq war debate.

    Disagree with the white house and you are accused of emboldening the enemy, hurting the troops and being a traitor. This isn't just from the talking heads but from the administration and the minority in both houses. Oddly enough the things they are saying are emboldening/ hurting/treasonous are the same things the accusers did to Clinton.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #12
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Quite true.

    Why should we shrink from open debate, no matter how unrelentingly silly, misleading and stupid it might be.

    Spin/context must be stamped out at all costs.

    I hereby announce my entrepeneurial entry into spin management; I am now offering Logic Credits as an aid to those suffering any and all argumentive impairments.
    It doesn't matter if the talk is silly or misleading one bit. The point is that to suggest that such opinions damage america is nothing more than an effort to silence instead of actually refuting the statements.

    It doesn't just happen with conspiracy theories, look at the rhetoric over the Iraq war debate.

    Disagree with the white house and you are accused of emboldening the enemy, hurting the troops and being a traitor. This isn't just from the talking heads but from the administration and the minority in both houses. Oddly enough the things they are saying are emboldening/ hurting/treasonous are the same things the accusers did to Clinton.
    Hmmm.

    Would that be at all like, uh, Bush, who is supposed to be the most intellectually bereft individual to ever occupy the White House, insisting that we invade Iraq because Saddam had WMD, when the smug liberal contingent now maintains that they were misled?

    If that is true, then I beg you, please describe for us what Clinton was feeding us all those years, and why that should not be considered to be, uh....spin?

    Would you care to change your mind as to the question of whether or not such things matter?

    Spare me.

    Spare us all, actually.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #13
    MaxOverlord's Avatar Simplify
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    I hereby announce my entrepeneurial entry into spin management; I am now offering Logic Credits as an aid to those suffering any and all argumentive impairments.
    Will there be an open debate on whether or not your Logic Credits are logical?

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #14
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Hmmm.

    Would that be at all like, uh, Bush, who is supposed to be the most intellectually bereft individual to ever occupy the White House, insisting that we invade Iraq because Saddam had WMD, when the smug liberal contingent now maintains that they were misled?

    If that is true, then I beg you, please describe for us what Clinton was feeding us all those years, and why that should not be considered to be, uh....spin?

    Would you care to change your mind as to the question of whether or not such things matter?

    Spare me.

    Spare us all, actually.
    What does anything of that have to do with what I said or about accusing people that disagree of "hurting america"?

    Here's an example on point of what I am talking about
    Tom DeLay thinks Democrats’ criticism of the war borders, literally, on treason.

    In an interview with the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review editorial board yesterday, former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX) accused Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) of “getting very, very close to treason” by opposing the war in Iraq. When a member of the editorial board noted that treason is a “pretty serious charge,” DeLay shot back, “And I’m serious about it.” He added that he had looked up the definition on his way to the interview (probably a good idea), and it meant “the betrayal of trust.”

    DeLay specifically attacks Reid, saying that “in the time of war, with soldiers dying on the ground, announcing that we had lost the war, is very close to treasonous.”

    TP noted that “none of this should come as a surprise. DeLay, who is currently under criminal indictment for money laundering and criminal conspiracy, has a long history of attacking the patriotism of progressives.”

    That’s true, but let’s take a moment to delve into what, exactly, amounts to treason.

    Borrowing liberally from Slate’s William Saletan, let’s provide some context for DeLay’s concerns.

    If you’re sympathetic to a far-right worldview, you can probably muster some understanding for the former Majority Leader throwing around words like “treason.” After all, Harry Reid called the war in Iraq a “quagmire” and compared it to Vietnam. He said it would “drag on” indefinitely, costing billions. He accused the president of failing to specify how long our troops would have to stay, and he urged the administration to withdraw. When “the body bags start coming home,” Reid said, it’s time to cut our losses.

    Reid kept going, talking about the need for peace. “The White House has bombed its way around the globe,” he sneered. “International respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly.” As for the current war plan, Reid complained that “no one wants us to be there” and that the president’s crusade “has harmed [our] standing in the world.”

    And given the climate, I suppose Reid was pushing his luck when he urged Congress to de-fund the war and “pull out the forces we now have in the region.” What’s worse, Reid basically made the United States look like the bad guy. Once a U.S.-led coalition “starts meddling in the internal affairs of sovereign nations, where does it stop?” Reid asked. He charged that we were “starting to resemble a power-hungry imperialist army” and portrayed our mission as an “occupation by foreigners.”

    Are all of these comments harsh? Do they undermine the troops while they’re in harm’s way? Do they amount, literally, to “treason”?

    Before our friends on the right answer these questions, they should keep one minor detail in mind: all of these quotes I attributed to Harry Reid weren’t said by Reid at all — they came from Tom DeLay, on the House floor, about President Clinton’s war in Kosovo. It never occurred to him then, as it does now, that criticizing a war and questioning a military campaign is an unpatriotic attack on the country and its military.
    I could dig up loads of republicans saying the democratic party is hurting America and emboldening the enemy with their timeline policy, then show that the same critics were calling for timelines when clinton was in power.


    here's the administration

    I believe artificial timetables of withdrawal would be a mistake. … I will strongly reject an artificial timetable withdrawal and/or Washington politicians trying to tell those who wear the uniform how to do their job. [President Bush, 4/23/07]

    “The…attempt to micromanage our commanders is an unwise and perilous endeavor. It is impossible to argue that an unconditional timetable for retreat could serve the security interests of the United States or our friends in the region.” [Vice President Cheney, 4/13/07]

    “He’s also in denial that a surrender date he thinks is a good idea. It is not a good idea. It is defeat. It is a death sentence for the millions of Iraqis who voted for a constitution, who voted for a government, who voted for a free and democratic society.” [Dana Perino, 4/23/07]



    Flashback to 1999, when George W. Bush was governor of Texas. Then, Bush criticized President Clinton for not setting a timetable for exiting Kosovo.

    George W. Bush, 4/9/99, Houston Chronicle:

    “Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”

    And on the specific need for a timetable:

    George W. Bush, 6/5/99, Scripps Howard/Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

    “I think it’s also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.”

    Despite his past statements, Bush now refuses to apply the same standard to his war and smears those who want a similar timetable for Iraq.
    source

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #15
    bigboab's Avatar Poster BT Rep: +1
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    The only thing about 9/11 I have a problem with is the plane that crashed. I think it was shot down by the Air Force and if so, IMO rightly so.

    If that was the case it should be made public to warn any other potential terrorist that they will be shot down whatever the consequences.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #16
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxOverlord View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    I hereby announce my entrepeneurial entry into spin management; I am now offering Logic Credits as an aid to those suffering any and all argumentive impairments.
    Will there be an open debate on whether or not your Logic Credits are logical?
    Debate all you like, for I will soon be rich, just like AlGore.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    What does anything of that have to do with what I said or about accusing people that disagree of "hurting america"?


    I could dig up loads of republicans saying the democratic party is hurting America and emboldening the enemy with their timeline policy, then show that the same critics were calling for timelines when clinton was in power.
    Slight difference.

    The Republicans are largely correct, and the Democrats are not.

    Also, could you tell me at all (at all) which Islamic terrorist organizations were represented in the various armed conflicts in which Clinton involved us.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #17
    thewizeard's Avatar re-member BT Rep: +1
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    Point is, and anyone could see it. Bush knew nothing. He shit a brick. He took off in his status symbol and looked down .So that rules him out. The rest of the the administration? Perhaps it would be wise to check them out, later.

    To be honest, it was not a big deal. The targets made it a big deal. They were conspicuous. The loss of life was what made it so terribly terribly sad.

    How do we deal with those that are planning the utter destruction of our western civilization, our innocent mothers and their children
    Whether this was a conspiracy or not. We have a problem that needs to be addressed, sooner rather later.
    We need a leader that will talk to them in their language.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #18
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Slight difference.

    The Republicans are largely correct, and the Democrats are not.
    Don’t forget to mop that up before you go, not only will it attract flies but someone could slip in it and break their neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Also, could you tell me at all (at all) which Islamic terrorist organizations were represented in the various armed conflicts in which Clinton involved us.
    What does that have to do with anything? A war is a war.

    Now can you tell us at all (at all) just what Iraq had to do with AQ and 911?

    If you use the old AQ was in Iraq I will point out that Saddam was their enemy. Iraq is a distraction that hinders our fight against the terrorists.

    If you say AQ is operating in Iraq now I will point out that the fighting involving AQ is a tiny percentage, nearly all the violence is civil war infighting. I will also point out that if they are in Iraq today that this occurred because of the invasion…….oh and world wide terror attacks were up 25% last year……so we must be safer. And once you have done that you could perhaps get back on thread.

    Nice distraction from the subject though. Back on point. The crying out “traitor/troop undermine /emboldened/aide and comforters” is nothing more than trying to silence instead of debate

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #19
    GepperRankins's Avatar we want your oil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxOverlord View Post

    Will there be an open debate on whether or not your Logic Credits are logical?
    Debate all you like, for I will soon be rich, just like AlGore.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    What does anything of that have to do with what I said or about accusing people that disagree of "hurting america"?


    I could dig up loads of republicans saying the democratic party is hurting America and emboldening the enemy with their timeline policy, then show that the same critics were calling for timelines when clinton was in power.
    Slight difference.

    The Republicans are largely correct, and the Democrats are not.

    Also, could you tell me at all (at all) which Islamic terrorist organizations were represented in the various armed conflicts in which Clinton involved us.



    it's a scientific fact that republicans are always wrong

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #20
    bigboab's Avatar Poster BT Rep: +1
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    I thought that Republicans were always right.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

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