Abortion Views

[j2k4]

Originally posted by the_faceman@3 July 2003 - 11:28

Unless we are somehow harboring a P2P-friendly seminarian or possibly a likewise afflicted Jesuit scholar who could enlighten us?

i doubt it lol

I see your point. This will probably be my last post on the topic. I don't think many people are qualified to debate this properly. Rape victims, mothers and fathers, those who have suffered a miscarriage, those who have been put up for abortion, those brought up in a family without love, those who have had abortions themselves, these are all people that are truly able to argue for their beliefs on this matter, and i'm not any of them. I'm only 20, i feel my opinions are still valid, but will carry more weight when i'm more experienced in life.

Here's to your well-developed views-I hope you'll stick around.

JPaul-You occupy my personal home ground on this subject.

[Skillian]

Well, I think the law as it is now (in the UK at least) reflects my beliefs on the subject. If a woman wants to have an abortion, she can, and she should not have to feel guilty about it as was alluded in another post.

The idea that it is used as a method of contraception is just wrong I think. It is a serious operation, painful and certainly not without long term risk, and this is understood by the vast majority of women.

I agree the religious side of the debate cannot really be entered into, as it is almost impossible to argue against.

Basically I feel the option should be available to every single woman, regardless of circumstance and with no stigma attached, and that the decision should be wholly the woman's.

[clocker]

Originally posted by JPaul@3 July 2003 - 10:21


I find the concept of freely available abortions to be abhorrent. The idea that someone can chose to take the life of their own off-spring for the sake of convenience or vanity leaves me wondering what type of society we have become.

What you define as "convenience or vanity" the woman in question may call "necessity or lack of viable alternatives".

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by clocker+3 July 2003 - 19:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 3 July 2003 - 19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@3 July 2003 - 10:21


I find the concept of freely available abortions to be abhorrent. The idea that someone can chose to take the life of their own off-spring for the sake of convenience or vanity leaves me wondering what type of society we have become.

What you define as "convenience or vanity" the woman in question may call "necessity or lack of viable alternatives". [/b][/quote]
That&#39;s a matter between them and their conscience. The one person they can&#39;t lie to is themself.

Your point is little more than sophistry and you know it. It does you no credit.

[clocker]

Originally posted by JPaul@3 July 2003 - 12:36


Your point is little more than sophistry and you know it. It does you no credit.

Not at all.
Outside of rape, which you only consider begrudgingly, it would seem that every other reason to seek an abortion is to be dismissed a "convenience or vanity".

I&#39;ve know several women who have had to consider/receive an abortion and in every case it was a heartbreaking and difficult decision not to be trivialized as mere &#39;vanity.&#39;
I think only time will prove the final choice good or bad ( or, in the case of the religious, perhaps God), but I&#39;m content to know that the women in question had the opportunity to make the decision for themselves.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by JPaul
I would not wish to trivialise anyone killing what I believe to be another human being.

This is an intersting point... at what stage does an embryo become a human life? I would say when the fetus is capable of consciousness that is when abortion becomes infanticide. But.. when its just a cluster of cells, say 2 days after fertilisation, I cant understand how you can classify that as *********. You could argue that those cells have the potential to create a human life but so does your sperm&#33; Masturbation could be viewed in the same way if you take that idea to its logical extreme.

The realities of banning abortion would be catastrophic, a generation of unwanted kids, backstreet abortions etc. On a practical level I really cant see a viable alternative, well apart from enforced sterilisation but thats going down the "Seig heil" route.

[the_faceman]

i don&#39;t want to go into this in detail, but one situation would be the one i mentioned earlier, and that is if it was known through testing that the child would be severely disabled (and by that i mean "vegetable like" not blind or deaf etc (that&#39;s not to say that being blind or deaf is an easy thing to live with, but i&#39;m sure many people born deaf/blind have gone one to lead very happy, fulfilled lives).

The family i know have a huge burden in the form of a son they love dearly, but that has essentially ruined their lives. They are not bitter towards their son in any way. they hate to see him in pain, with no awareness of what&#39;s going on. I don&#39;t know what kind of life that is. The strain it has caused the family is tremendous, both financially and mentally, for the 2 parents and the two other children, who are healthy. 24 hour care is hard work, even with the help of nurses. This would maybe be easier to take if the child was just paralysed, but was still able to recognise their parents and siblings, and respond in any way to the love that is shown to them. I know many people would still consider it to be human life, but their son far more closely resembles a living mass of dysfunctional tissue. I find it hard to accept that for the sake of this "empty life" that 4 other lives should be ruined.

How many people have been heard to say when they have seen someone after an accident being kept alive by machines or living the life of a vegetable - "If i&#39;m ever like that let me go peacefully" I know i certainly wouldn&#39;t want to live out my days like that, regardless if it&#39;s my one shot at life or not.

If a farm animal was born severely disabled it would be put down as an act of kindness and to put it out of it&#39;s suffering, and although i&#39;m not putting the same value on human and animal life the principle is the same.

[The Knife Thrower]

If someone doesn&#39;t want to raise a child then dump them in a care home. It sounds tough but it&#39;s a lot better than denying them the right to live.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@3 July 2003 - 20:36
You could argue that those cells have the potential to create a human life but so does your sperm&#33; Masturbation could be viewed in the same way if you take that idea to its logical extreme.

That is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever seen posted anywhere on this forum.

Those cells you speak of are a human life in the making. All they have to do is develop and grow.

My sperm can never, under any circumstances form a human life on their own.

This fascination you appear to have with taking other peoples points to their logical extreme is very interesting. Unfortunately you seem to leave the logic aspect behind when you do it.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by Jpaul
Those cells you speak of are a human life in the making. All they have to do is develop and grow.

But can you really call killing a cluster of a few cells *********** though? I would argue that is pretty stupid too. As I stated I think it only becomes ********** when the fetus achieves consciousness.

Most abortion laws place a strict limit on the time frame for this very point.

What alternative would you suggest?