Genetic Engineering

[sArA]

Quite j2k....

and I have to put my oar in here....

It is not the idea of scorpion DNA in my veggies that is of concern to me but several other points....

1. That there appears to be some rush to introduce GM...almost to the point where I wonder....why??? Is there a problem 'they' haven't told us about?

and

2. The pressure from governments and the total disregard for public opinion. This riding rough shod over the citizens of supposedly democratic countries is concerning.

If 'they' are prepared to force this onto us then my concern is not so much about the problems of GM but rather the loss of democratic values, choice, freedom etc that this is symptomatic of.


Back to the original question and my thoughts are:

GM crops require much greater safety scrutiny before commercial introduction particularly in Europe. This is because Europe does not have the vast tracts of farm land that are available in the US, which helps to separate the crops. Further there must be guarantees that these sterile seeds will not be forced onto farmers in poor countries who cannot afford new seed each season.

The prospect of providing a global, high producing, disease free crop is fine providing that the cost of doing so both economically and environmentally is considered beyond the end of GM producers noses.

[j2k4]

The only aspect of the crop issue I'm onto is the U.S.'s desire to export irradiated and/or G.E. crop technology to, for example, African nations which have difficulty feeding their people; this could be a boon for them.

Problems being:

1) People, in general, are still leery of the ultimate safety of eating the produce; fear of the unknown.

2) The E.U., by and large, still doesn't/won't buy the idea of irradiated or G.E.'d produce as they don't want their exports to be undercut price-or availablity-wise.
They look at the issue as "just another example of American capitalism run amok", costing the E.U. money.

As to the safety issue, much of the produce here in the U.S. is, and has been of the irradiated variety; we also have been eating some G.E.'d stuff, like tomatoes, too.

I can vouch for the tomatoes; they're excellent.

I don't believe safety is a concern, short- or long-term, but if you remember, for years, people were afraid of microwave ovens for similar reasons.

Anyway, I think it's a pretty piss-poor thing when the E.U. bad-mouths our efforts to advance the technologies of the African nations who could make critical progress by taking advantage of this.

[denis123]

Originally posted by j2k4@16 July 2003 - 16:26
On this subject I have not yet run to ground a coherent viewpoint.

I am cautious, as G.E. is a life-altering science, much as the study of the atom was, and with an even greater potential upside, BUT-

I am reminded of a line from the movie "Jurassic Park", relative to G.E., and uttered by Jeff Goldblum, something to the effect of, "They (the genetic engineers) became so enamored of the fact they could, they never stopped to consider whether or not they should."

j2k4

What you now say seems to be in coflict with your quote.

There is a strong lobby in Europe against anything that is "engineerd" and the politicians have to take notice. I am sure the products that are created, as far as taste is concerned, are equal to their natural brothers/sisters. That is not the point.

The point is we are playing "god" and have no idea what the effects will be on the coming generations. There is a saying "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" It might be ok, we just don't know ...yet.

America gives, I believe, by far the most aid to the developing countries than any other country. For this they should be applauded. But untill scientifically conducted experiments have proven that GE foods are safe then we should wait and not use these countries as laboratories to test these potentialy dangerous products.

[Ron]

I think us humans should not play around with nature at this time.
We are so proud of what we know, but we haven't even begin to learn what we don't know.
How do we know GE isn't opening doors for virii that didn't have a chance to infect a particular plant upto now?
Nature spent millions of years evolving to what we have now. And here we are, changing all that in a couple of years.
Minor changes now, can lead to major changes in the future.
You can't really compare this to microwave ovens. We are dealing with living things here. Things that are part of the foodchain. Things that will keep evolving.

What if the GE plant just happens to be extra tasty for a certain insect or rodent? They would breed like crazy.
Or suppose, just for arguments sake, that a GE plant would hold 10% more water inside. That would be a disaster. Not because of one little plant, but if you look a the enormeousity of the American grainbelt, that could very possibly influence the weather all over the world. And as nature didn't have it's usual time to adjust to this situation, well, who knows what might happen?
I was (hopefully) exaggerating of course, but it does convey my worries.

But I also think it's too late to stop it now.
There's no way you can prevent GE plants from spreading. Birds and insects will spread the seeds and, no matter how far, eventually every field in the world will be contaminated with the GE variety.

[ilw]

A very nasty marketing trick

Its not a marketing trick and u know its not, its because people (like i'm seeing in the previous few posts) worry almost permanently about what scientists are getting up to and infertile grain is a safety precaution. As has occured in India/Pakistan the grain can be made to be fertile and is doing very nicely.(if illegally)

Whatever people don't understand they worry about and feel they should be able to stop (thanks for the microwave example I reckon its a perfect example of people fearing the unknown)

2. The pressure from governments and the total disregard for public opinion. This riding rough shod over the citizens of supposedly democratic countries is concerning.

If 'they' are prepared to force this onto us then my concern is not so much about the problems of GM but rather the loss of democratic values, choice, freedom etc that this is symptomatic of.

Personallly i am ecstatic that they don't listen to the public on these matters and that they instead listen to well thought out informed opinions from people who dedicated their lives to understanding these matters, the thought of giving the choice about genetic engineering to someone who doesn't know what an amino acid is makes me want to bang my head off the desk repeatedly.

But untill scientifically conducted experiments have proven that GE foods are safe then we should wait and not use these countries as laboratories to test these potentialy dangerous products.

Proving something takes an infinite amount of time, disproving something takes an instant. There is NO way they will ever prove that ge food is safe because the biological processes involved in reproduction are inherently random.

Sorry for the bluntness, personally I dislike democracy as a process for deciding complicated matters as people vote without ever understanding what they are voting for.

[lynx]

Originally posted by ilw@17 July 2003 - 08:55
As has occured in India/Pakistan the grain can be made to be fertile and is doing very nicely.(if illegally)

You can bet the scientists at Monsanto (the ones that didn't get fired) are going to make sure THAT doesn't happen again - where would they make any money if second generation seed is fertile ?

(thanks for the microwave example I reckon its a perfect example of people fearing the unknown)

The microwave example is actually far better than you realise.
A microwave cooker with the shielding removed is a VERY dangerous piece of equipment. But in normal use, and assuming it isn't damaged (but still operative) it is very safe. If, however, the safety features failed so that the door could be opened while the oven was active, you would have a potential killer. In this situation, it is nothing to do with irrational fears.
Fortunately, there is a simple solution - you switch the thing off. Now I hope you can tell me where the off switch is located on GM products.

The E.U., by and large, still doesn't/won't buy the idea of irradiated or G.E.'d produce as they don't want their exports to be undercut price-or availablity-wise.
They look at the issue as "just another example of American capitalism run amok", costing the E.U. money.

You misrepresent the point of the E.U. actions.
It is all about LABELLING and giving the choice to the consumer. The E.U. is very tough on making sure that food is labelled correctly. GM food is only one example of where this is done, but ths US seems to want to take it as an issue against them. There is no embargo or anything like that, it doesn't cost you any more, all you have to do is label it correctly so that the consumer has the choice. We can only assume that the US doesn't want consumers to have that choice.

Years ago, before there were any commercial GM products, it was decided that this was one of the areas where there should be clear labelling. The US knew this, but decided that they would try to muddy the waters by mixing GM and non-GM products, even though they could have been kept completely separate (and still can). The E.U. rules were quite clear before, and they haven't changed, but the US now decides it wants to call 'foul'.

The US is shooting itself in the foot over this. It's insistence that we should accept GM produce WITHOUT proper labelling is making the consumer suspicious and is actually fuelling the fire it says it is trying to combat.

I didn't want to make this a EU vs US thing, but I feel that the facts should not be obscured by rhetoric,

[ilw]

The microwave thing tho... people didn't understand that all it did was emit EM waves that resonate with water molecules, all they understood was that it irradiated their food. The thing i'm talking about is not the very real danger posed by unshielded microwaves, but the fear that existed nearer the time they were first released, namely that their food would become radioactive or could be mutated in some way.

Edit: And if anyone raises the point about not trusting Monsanto with genetic modification, then I completely agree with them, Monsanto are a very dodgy company with a poor track record.

[lynx]

Originally posted by ilw@17 July 2003 - 12:03
The microwave thing tho... people didn't understand that all it did was emit EM waves that resonate with water molecules, all they understood was that it irradiated their food. The thing i'm talking about is not the very real danger posed by unshielded microwaves, but the fear that existed nearer the time they were first released, namely that their food would become radioactive or could be mutated in some way.

Edit: And if anyone raises the point about not trusting Monsanto with genetic modification, then I completely agree with them, Monsanto are a very dodgy company with a poor track record.

Very true, a bit like the current irradiated produce thing taking place at the moment. Completely separate from GM, but gets lumped in with it.
I have no problem at all with irradiated food (I just typed irradiated fool - must be something freudian there), it should be labelled better so that I know it will last longer.
There's an example where proper labelling can help sell a product.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by denis123+17 July 2003 - 00:32--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (denis123 @ 17 July 2003 - 00:32)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@16 July 2003 - 16:26
On this subject I have not yet run to ground a coherent viewpoint.

I am cautious, as G.E. is a life-altering science, much as the study of the atom was, and with an even greater potential upside, BUT-

I am reminded of a line from the movie "Jurassic Park", relative to G.E., and uttered by Jeff Goldblum, something to the effect of, "They (the genetic engineers) became so enamored of the fact they could, they never stopped to consider whether or not they should."

j2k4

What you now say seems to be in coflict with your quote.

There is a strong lobby in Europe against anything that is "engineerd" and the politicians have to take notice. I am sure the products that are created, as far as taste is concerned, are equal to their natural brothers/sisters. That is not the point.

The point is we are playing "god" and have no idea what the effects will be on the coming generations. There is a saying "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" It might be ok, we just don&#39;t know ...yet.

America gives, I believe, by far the most aid to the developing countries than any other country. For this they should be applauded. But untill scientifically conducted experiments have proven that GE foods are safe then we should wait and not use these countries as laboratories to test these potentialy dangerous products. [/b][/quote]
denis123

Yes-you&#39;re right.

To clarify: I should say I&#39;m very leery of G.E. as it applies to any such adventures in the catagory of humans/cloning; that type of thing.

I am not concerned about produce to any great extent.